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Larian may release this game in about one year, which is still enough time to make significant changes to its design. We know a large amount of development resources are being put into writing, staging, and animating pre-constructed PC stories and scenes, which do not contribute to building a deep CRPG system, and may not appeal to many RPG players. As we have seen over the last seven patches, it is not a priority for Larian to include large amounts of missing mechanics and/or content from the PHB. I feel that the amount of missing content goes beyond "homebrew," though, as a critical amount of mechanics and balance have been completely ignored, and the game is not a "benchmark incarnation" of 5E (or any other edition!). At this pace, it seems likely that an accurate description of the final game will be "Divinity: Sword Coast 1" rather than anything that could honestly be described as D&D. I'm a DOS1 fan (DOS2 was meh) so I will be interested in that product, and I will definitely be playing it. Larian has my money already.

However, even if "Divinity: Sword Coast 1" turns out to be a great game, the high-level design choices made for this game, and the years of work put into it, pose a problem for future D&D games licensed to Larian. Any future games in this franchise will follow from the reputation of this one, which will be well-known for not containing the class, mechanics, or balance of 5E. When the "final" game also is missing huge parts of the PHB, players will no longer be fooled by the D&D brand and the cache of "Baldur's Gate." Even more seriously, without building a faithful, detailed implementation of the 5E systems, future games will either have to be ultra-homebrewed again from scratch, or will be rehashed versions of the watered-down systems from the first one, which will be disappointing to everyone. The rich game system that has been iterated and refined for five major editions is not going to be rivaled by anything Larian puts together on the back burner while they are scripting a fan-service drama series. Whatever oversimplified game systems they end up with will be difficult to adapt WotC content to, since the purpose of the standardized edition is to make new campaigns compatible with the existing mechanics and systems.

When Larian obtained the license from WotC, I was hoping they would build a foundation for developing multiple faithful D&D games over time, not just one. I am worried that this will never be successful due to the consequences of deviating too far from the core 5E game systems.

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I won't go into the DoS thing (again), but what are you complaining about and/or what are your suggestions ?

PHB (sub-)classes and races will be added.
What is "too far from the core 5e game system" according to you ?

I'm not a TT player but I have experience with DnD video games. They're doing a very good job on some points and they have succeeded at creating more entertaining combats than a game that fully follows 5e (Solasta, a game I really love).

I'm far from saying that the game is perfect... I have critisized so many things about it that I'm probably blacklisted by Swen... But I'd like to understand you're point and what you're exactly talking about.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/04/22 09:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What is "too far from the core 5e game system" according to you ?

It has been written about exhaustively on this forum. I think there are too many issues to give a complete account in one post. There are major changes to class definitons, class balancing, spellbooks, spell functions, combat, abilities, items, the bestiary, etc. Discussing specific changes at this stage is less relevant than the philosophy behind them.

Naming your class "Rogue," in this combat and ability system, is not the same thing as adding Rogues to this game.

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Not lying, I enjoyed DOS1 and to some degree DOS2..though Itemization destroyed my enjoyment of these games. It got boring very quickly, but the gameplay was still FUN. What Larian does, in that silly Divinity world it just WORKS.

My first reaction to Baldurs gate 3 was...uh, thats a lot like Divinity...THAT doesn't work.
2 years later my reaction to Baldurs gate 3 is the same.
So people saying <this is EA things will change> ; I say to them : No it clearly will not. Larian has decided to make a Baldur's gate + D&D frosting coated DOS 3 cinematic telltale RPG game.
Game budget and effort is all about the cinematics + pretty faces and nothing much else. And hey, 90% of non Baldur's gate fans will probably enjoy that so who cares what we think at that point.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 08/04/22 10:31 PM.
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I think I get the gist of your thoughts OP and generally agree. I think they've hedged their bets a little too heavily on the cinematic aspect while under the bonnet things are not as concise as they should or could be. I also think the direction of the game lacks clarity. There's too many things pulling in different directions which just scream a chaotic approach to development.

The premise for BG3 should have been abundantly straightforward; take what made the previous games such a success and make them better with all the benefits of contemporary technology and the new D&D edition Instead, they divested themselves of some pretty fundamental game mechanics in favour of what they are already familiar with. You really shouldn't make a Lasagne and decide it would be better off with cauliflower and coconut oil in it.

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I honestly doubt that Larian will stick to doing DnD licenced games. It's not impossible, but I feel they used BG3 to expand their audience, so when they move to D:OS3/different IP they will have an expanded player base. Stuff they are heavily investing in using BG3 development, like cinematic tech and team is something they can carry into their next project. Erase D&D from BG3, and we get a better game allowing Larian to do what they actually want to do, rather then having to recreate their classless game of surface based status effects within D&D framework.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/04/22 12:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Etruscan
You really shouldn't make a Lasagne and decide it would be better off with cauliflower and coconut oil in it.
Cauliflower Alfredo & Spinach Pesto Lasagna sounds good to me! grin

Last edited by Icelyn; 09/04/22 11:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Etruscan
You really shouldn't make a Lasagne and decide it would be better off with cauliflower and coconut oil in it.
Cauliflower Alfredo & Spinach Pesto Lasagna sounds good to me! grin

It does to me, too. But more to the point don't tell everyone you are making lasagna and then serve a tossed salad and STILL tell everyone it is lasagna, just your take on it.

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Did they tho?

Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from last month
We want to have that Dungeons & Dragons feeling, not slavishly following every single one rule, but really getting the feeling of playing this tabletop experience but everything is being done for me, this dungeon master is doing everything automatically, I'm just having a good time.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
So what you can expect in BG3 is us giving you more tools to fool around with based on fifth edition rules and on some of the things that make the fifth edition so cool and accessible.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from November 2020
Baldur’s Gate was the definitive D&D game of it’s generation, and that’s what we’re trying to create, but we’re also trying to make a good video game first and foremost, rather than a strict D&D adaptation.

To put it in D&D terms, we’re your dungeon master and this is our campaign that we’re running, so there will be our own flavour and house rules. We’re bringing you one particular visualisation of this world, but that doesn't mean that there cannot be others.

Seems to me like they were talking quite clearly about what they are cooking ...
But people heared the word "Lasagna" and refused to listen even rest of the sentence. -_-

As Tuco (i believe?) once said ... there is nobody more blind, then person who refuses to see.
Or was ti deaf? Dunno ...the point should be clear.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 09/04/22 11:58 AM.

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Cauliflower Alfredo & Spinach Pesto Lasagna sounds good to me! grin

grin I suppose so but I bet you wouldn't add coconut oil to it...or soy sauce for that matter crazy

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And here comes the resident contrarian with a list of bullet points again grin grin grin Just kidding.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Did they tho?

Originally Posted by The Composer
[quote=Swen Vincke - Source from last month ]We want to have that Dungeons & Dragons feeling, not slavishly following every single one rule, but really getting the feeling of playing this tabletop experience but everything is being done for me, this dungeon master is doing everything automatically, I'm just having a good time.

I'm pretty certain that's exactly what happened in the previous games too? Certain things were changed to better adapt to a video game format. Apparently nobody had a good time in BG1 & 2.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.

See above.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
So what you can expect in BG3 is us giving you more tools to fool around with based on fifth edition rules and on some of the things that make the fifth edition so cool and accessible.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from November 2020
Baldur’s Gate was the definitive D&D game of it’s generation, and that’s what we’re trying to create, but we’re also trying to make a good video game first and foremost, rather than a strict D&D adaptation.

To put it in D&D terms, we’re your dungeon master and this is our campaign that we’re running, so there will be our own flavour and house rules. We’re bringing you one particular visualisation of this world, but that doesn't mean that there cannot be others.

Strange thing to say. So BG1 & 2 weren't good video games? Lol. The previous games were not by the book adaptations either.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Seems to me like they were talking quite clearly about what they are cooking ...
But people heared the word "Lasagna" and refused to listen even rest of the sentence. -_-

As Tuco (i believe?) once said ... there is nobody more blind, then person who refuses to see.
Or was ti deaf? Dunno ...the point should be clear.

I'd say most of those quotes could be interpreted either way. They do not necessarily suggest dispensing with a whole of D&D mechanics and implementing home-brew though equally they can be interpreted as such. Depends on your reading of them I guess.

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Originally Posted by machinus
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What is "too far from the core 5e game system" according to you ?
Discussing specific changes at this stage is less relevant than the philosophy behind them.

I totally disagree. To quote you, "Larian may release this game in about one year, which is still enough time to make significant changes to its design".
As you said we have already discussed and suggested many things. Talking about "the philosophy behind them" doesn't add anything valuable to our requests to change/improve the game for it to become better at release.

That's why I was asking but if your goal is definitely to talk about the philosophy, I'm out smile
Of course, Larian's total lack of communication does not help us not to become mad.
They should definitely give us more informations on what is definitive and what is work in progress (reaction system, spell system, companions, ...)

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Seems like they were talking quite clearly about what they are cooking ...
But people heared the word "Lasagna" and refused to listen even rest of the sentence. -_-

As Tuco (i believe?) once said ... there is nobody more blind, then person who refuses to see.
Or was ti deaf? Dunno ...the point should be clear.

It seems like you are the one who refuses to see. No one cares about vague comments in interviews. The audience is not going to investigate obscure websites to solve the mystery of why this game doesn't have the PHB in it. The game says "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" and "BALDUR'S GATE" on the front. It's not that, and many customers are going to be disappointed with what they receive.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by machinus
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What is "too far from the core 5e game system" according to you ?
Discussing specific changes at this stage is less relevant than the philosophy behind them.

I totally disagree. To quote you, "Larian may release this game in about one year, which is still enough time to make significant changes to its design".
As you said we have already discussed and suggested many things. Talking about "the philosophy behind them" doesn't add anything valuable to our requests to change/improve the game for it to become better at release.

That's why I was asking but if your goal is definitely to talk about the philosophy, I'm out smile
Of course, Larian's total lack of communication does not help us not to become mad.
They should definitely give us more informations on what is definitive and what is work in progress (reaction system, spell system, companions, ...)

This is not a total disagreement, then. I hope for improvements in the next year, but I don't see much use in arguing for specific changes. The reasoning behind the problems is going to be the same for each issue we bring up, so it would be more effective to address that than it would be to make a list of 100 desired changes to the game. It is more important to identify why Larian does not want to use the already developed and successful game mechanics in 5E, because that would be the explanation for almost all of the missing or changed content. I think Larian's vision for a shallow mechanical system with lots of melodrama on top of it does not sound fun, and fixing reactions or advantage isn't going to solve the big picture issue.

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Well, Ragnarok gives you the best answer then.
They're the GM and they consider that DnD doesn't always translate well into video games.
Wormerine's answer is interresting too, as usual.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
I honestly doubt that Larian will stick to doing DnD licenced games. It's not impossible, but I feel they used BG3 to expand their audience, so when they move to D:OS3/different IP they will have an expanded player base. Stuff they are heavily investing in using BG3 development, like cinematic tech and team is something they can carry into their next project. Erase D&D from BG3, and we get a better game allowing Larian to do what they actually want to do, rather then having to recreate their classless game of surface based status effects within D&D framework.

Agreed.
BG3 is really the DOS3 testing ground pre-alpha version with D&D and Baldurs gate slapped on to it to get more buzz.
I am actually really looking forward to DOS4.

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Originally Posted by Etruscan
So BG1 & 2 weren't good video games?
1) Your words not mine.
2) Where did you even get that? laugh

Originally Posted by Etruscan
I'd say most of those quotes could be interpreted either way.
Please do ...
I would love to see it. :3

---

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
They should definitely give us more informations on what is definitive and what is work in progress (reaction system, spell system, companions, ...)
That would indeed be much apreciated. frown
Sadly i dont thrust it would be possible anymore. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Well, Ragnarok gives you the best answer then.
Thank you! ^_^

---

Originally Posted by machinus
It seems like you are the one who refuses to see. No one cares about vague comments in interviews. The audience is not going to investigate obscure websites to solve the mystery of why this game doesn't have the PHB in it. The game says "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" and "BALDUR'S GATE" on the front. It's not that, and many customers are going to be disappointed with what they receive.
There is your ignorance ... loud and clear. smile

I dont quite understad your kind of people ...
You enter vegan restaurant, see the menu, order lasagna ... and then you are complaining that there isnt any meat in them ... :-/
If i would be a waiter, i would say get your refund and get out of my face before i slap the shit out of you. :-/
Sadly im not ... or luckily, depend on point of view. laugh


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I dislike 5th edition, so the heavier DOS system is great for me. The problem occurs when you mix both approaches as they have completely different gameplay.

Dos: highly aggressive, multi-moves, chain reactions, death and victory happen within round one- focus on exploiting mechanics [escapist, barrels, etc]
BG: an rpg that is focused on stat buffing and debuffing, turns and kills are slow and deliberate. It focuses on resource management, no gimicks

Doing both is like trying to put a airplane engine on a tayota carola, the feeling is a result of confusion that breaks the process and leaves you unsatisfied

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Cauliflower Alfredo & Spinach Pesto Lasagna sounds good to me! grin
Fitting.
In the sense that they sound like a poor approximation/imitation of actual Italian dishes in the same way BG3 seems an approximation of D&D rules.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
There is your ignorance ... loud and clear. smile

I dont quite understad your kind of people ...
You enter vegan restaurant, see the menu, order lasagna ... and then you are complaining that there isnt any meat in them ... :-/
If i would be a waiter, i would say get your refund and get out of my face before i slap the shit out of you. :-/
Sadly im not ... or luckily, depend on point of view. laugh

You are revealing your lack of intelligence by threatening to "slap the shit" out of people who have a different point of view. That is a very primitive and dumb attitude. What are you, an ape?

The fact is that the average gamer is not going to do a lot of work to look for many different references made by different people all over the internet. They will form expectations based on the title, franchise, and license. You are ignorant about the commercial side of the gaming industry, but I am not, and neither is Swen. There is a reason he fought so hard for the rights to the brand.

I hope you get some help with your anger and violence problems frown

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