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So ...
Once again i would like to know your opinion on this ... since as far as i know (i did some research, but maybe i missed something) Larian created a lots of special weapons attacks, AND created some special attacks for Barbarian (since i didnt find anything about Cleave+Bleed for Tiger barbarian, Stampede for Elk barbarian, or Diving for Eagle ... the other two dont get "attack" ability, so i left them out of this topic)

And i would like to know how do you imagine Larian should deal with this on level 5 ...
Should we be able to use two Special Attacks in single round?
Should we be able to use our Special Attack + Regular Attack?
Should we be able to use our Regular Attacks only, in order to profit from Extra Attack feature?

Personaly i think there should be some restrictions ... but im not sure what ... option B sounds like golden middle road.
Since Tiger Barbarian with option to cleave-bleed twice ... any martial class able to knock enemy prone and then attack with bonus (what bonus is there anyway? i dont remember ... is it advantage, or autocrit?) ... or causing Gaping Wounds and benefit from it imediatly ... it all sounds quite powerfull to me. O_o


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Im not a fan of the special attacks to begin with. But I understand how they want to add some flavour to combat. An complaint I often see on the internet is that weapons feel to bland and lack their own identity. But tbh no player that I DM for or play with voices this complaint. Its only a thing I see on the internet. At the table people are supposed to use their inmagination so I think its an...interesting take. That said I can understand that Larian isent bringing out a pnp rpg but a video game and they need to hold peoples attention I suppose. Giving weapons something more then stat changes or visual changes is probably better for the game in the long run as it allows the devs to implement more unique and special weapons as rewards.

Balancewise I feel it infringes a little bit to much on the Battlemaster's area of expertise. Their whole sthtick is that they can perform special attacks and control the battlefield via their actions. Things like a cleaving attack actually ARE a battlemaster move and I feel giving that to everyone without compensating for that somehow nerfs the Battlemaster. Maybe allow them to make special weapon attacks twice per short rest or something like that? That would stay in touch with the archtype of the class, keep the special moves in the game; and still make the battlemaster destinct from other classes.

The bonus to attack a prone enemy in melee is advantage on your (melee) attack. And that is insanely powerfull if you use things like great weapon master for that +10 damage. With the advantage your odds of attack increase alot and if you hit the damage is huge!

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As a preamble and disclaimer, I'm not really that invested in the combat and strategic aspects of BG3. It comes well below basic playability, and below immersion, in my list of priorities. It's not that I don't love good combat systems and strategy games, it's just that I have long stopped hoping that this is something Larian can deliver. With this out of the way

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And i would like to know how do you imagine Larian should deal with this on level 5 ...
Should we be able to use two Special Attacks in single round?
Should we be able to use our Special Attack + Regular Attack?
Should we be able to use our Regular Attacks only, in order to profit from Extra Attack feature?

I think that, when making 2 Attacks as part of the Attack Action (with a martial character, at level 5 and above), we should be able to choose, for each Attack, whether
- it's a Regular Attack,
- it's a Weapon-induced Special Attack,
- it's a Shove,
- it's a Sneak Attack,
- it's a Smite,
- ...
Obviously, that means that Larian's current implementation of Shove or Sneak Attack as being the whole Action, instead of just properties of your Attacks, should go away.


(And as Demoulius recalled above, some of the Weapon-induced Special Attacks that Larian introduced (like the circular/sweeping strike) are, very unfortunately, taken from the list of exclusive things that the Battle Master subclass can do, and thus devaluing that sublass. Just like Hide-as-a-Bonus-Action is stolen from Rogues. Sadly, there's a pattern here.)


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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I don't know what to tell you. They made their own unbalanced Homebrew mess with this one. Everything about it is Homebrew. They home brewed weapons special abilities and a whole list of Barbarian Homebrew special abilities.

It's just another example of them creating a bigger mess than was necessary. I mean kudos for imagination and creativity, but I have no idea how to fix the balance of this.

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I would be absolutely fine with us being able to use multiple special attacks at level 5... But only if they were balanced and did not revolve almost exclusively around new conditions.

At the moment the special attacks are another unecessary mess. If it was more simple and balanced it would not be a problem with multiple attacks (to target the two legs, the two arms, to feint once than to do a regular attack, to charge and...)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 14/04/22 01:27 PM.
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You know, upon further thought, the special attacks provided by weapons are only once per rest. So, even if you do 2 in one round, that's it until you rest again. So, it's not like you can do that consistently.

But, then again, if you can long rest between every fight, then it kinda does make it fairly OP, doesn't it?

But then, that's no more OP than a wizard who can cast multiple fireballs per battle who can long rest between every battle as well and regain them. So...

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
You know, upon further thought, the special attacks provided by weapons are only once per rest. So, even if you do 2 in one round, that's it until you rest again. So, it's not like you can do that consistently.

But, then again, if you can long rest between every fight, then it kinda does make it fairly OP, doesn't it?

But then, that's no more OP than a wizard who can cast multiple fireballs per battle who can long rest between every battle as well and regain them. So...
More or less this is my line of thought - with limited use I don't think weapons skills are too much of a problem, and if Larian fails to do a decent balance patch that is something that modders can easily fix. I also just throught that unless push gets seriously nerfed (which it should), it is probably better for it to be a bonus action - sure, now one can do full attack and a push, but imagine being in a proximity instant death pit while enemies can do 2 or 3 push attempts per round.

Spells is what I am more worried about - giving players ability to cast multiple spells in one turn demands for nerfs that would make spellcasting less fun. Maybe there will be proper implementation of multi-attack, maybe there won't be.

Last edited by Wormerine; 14/04/22 01:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
(And as Demoulius recalled above, some of the Weapon-induced Special Attacks that Larian introduced (like the circular/sweeping strike) are, very unfortunately, taken from the list of exclusive things that the Battle Master subclass can do, and thus devaluing that sublass. Just like Hide-as-a-Bonus-Action is stolen from Rogues. Sadly, there's a pattern here.)
Even tho technicaly its an offtopic ... so far its the only post worth reaction. :-/
(Sad, but i should have expected that ... that is totally on me.)

Question: How would you like/dislike if there would be some bonuses for classes that are suppose to *do* such things, or on the other hand some penalisations for classes that are not suppose do to them?

Like:
Rogue can hide using action, or bonus action ...
Everyone else can hide using action, or bonus action ... BUT when they use Bonus Action, they have to sucess stealth check with disadvantage?
> Exactly with that in mind that everybody can "try to hide" ... and everybody can "try to hide quickly" ... but not everyone will be as good at is as Rogue.

Battle Master can cleave with any weapon (even Dagger laugh ) ... with either no limit on targets, or with MUCH (and i mean much, like 180°, instead of 90°) wider range.
Everyone else can cleave, if they are profficient with weapon that allows cleaving ... and their can hit only 3 targets (curent situation) ... or they simply get -X to hit.
> Same idea, everyone can swing sword in wide curve ... not everyone can do that as effective as Battle Master.


//Edit:
Wait you can shove twice per round in tabletop? O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 14/04/22 01:32 PM.

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Yes you can, but shove isn't ridiculous and overpowered in TT.

You're over complicating it again.
What will happen if you wear a heavy armor ? Double disadvantage on stealth check ?

Following the rules and/or balancing your homebrew is the solution.
Adding topping over DnD again and again will lead to indigestion. DnD may already be indigestible enough when it comes to learning the rules from scratch.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 14/04/22 02:15 PM.
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Generally I'm in favor of allowing players to attempt fancy moves, but with a penalty. These options shouldn't be strictly more powerful than a basic attack/cantrip and shouldn't step on other classes' toes.

So:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Rogue can hide using action, or bonus action ...
Everyone else can hide using action, or bonus action ... BUT when they use Bonus Action, they have to sucess stealth check with disadvantage?
> Exactly with that in mind that everybody can "try to hide" ... and everybody can "try to hide quickly" ... but not everyone will be as good at is as Rogue.
This is good. Except that people wearing Heavy Armor (disadvantage on stealth) aren't affected by this. I'd suggest a flat -X penalty.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Battle Master can cleave with any weapon (even Dagger laugh ) ... with either no limit on targets, or with MUCH (and i mean much, like 180°, instead of 90°) wider range.
Everyone else can cleave, if they are profficient with weapon that allows cleaving ... and their can hit only 3 targets (curent situation) ... or they simply get -X to hit.
> Same idea, everyone can swing sword in wide curve ... not everyone can do that as effective as Battle Master.
Everyone else getting a -X to hit (maybe -4 or disadvantage) sounds fair to me - roughly the same expected damage as making a normal weapon attack. Situationally useful, but not strictly better.

As for Special Weapon Attacks specifically, I think they should be much closer in power to a regular weapon attack than they are now. They should offer flexibility, not increased power. If they're toned down in that way, then you should be able to freely interchange regular & special attacks. Otherwise, they should probably be a separate Action. Though if they're only available 1x per combat, eh it's not too OP to combine them with regular attacks.

The Barbarian special abilities should definitely remain separate actions.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
//Edit:
Wait you can shove twice per round in tabletop? O_o
I feel like this point comes up in the majority of discussions on BG3's Shove. Yes, tabletop's Shove (5 feet or prone) can freely replace any attack used as part of the Attack Action. So a level 5 fighter could shove 2x per round (4x if they Action Surge), and a level 11 fighter could 3x per round...though a scenario where 3+ shoves would be useful is unlikely to happen in tabletop.

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Im happy that at least someone understand what "example" mean. :-/


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Shoving to knock someone prone or 5 foot away from you is very niche and its not as powerfull as it sounds. Not to say that it isent powerfull though. Knocking someone over in melee range gives everyone around them advantage on their melee attacks. Which can be incredibly powerfull if you know other friendlies are up next in the initiative order.

Grappling also isent in the game I believe (or rather dident see it lat time I played) and that one has alot more potential impact on the game. Specificly because some monsters use grappling as their main form of attack. So long as grappling isent in the game, those monsters cant be either.

But before I reel of topic more.... With multi attack they should just overwrite a single attack, not all of them. Each of the moves (grapple, shove, knock prone) specify that they replace a single attack. Making is so that it replaces all of yyour attacks is a MASSIVE nerf to martial classes.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im happy that at least someone understand what "example" mean. :-/

How could anyone know what is an example if you don't write "example"...

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
But before I reel of topic more.... With multi attack they should just overwrite a single attack, not all of them. Each of the moves (grapple, shove, knock prone) specify that they replace a single attack. Making is so that it replaces all of yyour attacks is a MASSIVE nerf to martial classes.
The problem is that some special attacks in BG3 are MUCH more powerful than tabletop single-attack-equivalent-moves. So allowing you to replace a single attack with (some) special attacks is a MASSIVE buff to martial classes. Especially if combined with the ability to freely cycle through weapons (still in the game?), which could allow multiple special attacks in a single turn. As a reminder, certain weapon special attacks CAUSE THE ENEMY TO LOSE THEIR ACTION FOR MULTIPLE TURNS (again, still in the game?). Some others deal damage AND result in the target having lowered AC AND disadvantage on STs.
The Barbarian abilities in particular are all much more powerful than a standard attack. Movement+Damage+Prone ability, Multiple-target damage+Prone ability, multiple-target damage+bleed ability.

As long as a special weapon attack has roughly equal power to a normal attack, sure it can and should replace a single attack. But that is not the current case in BG3.

Fyi I'm getting my info on special weapon attacks from here, since the BG3 wiki doesn't have descriptions for them.

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Thats because the homeruled special attacks are far to powerfull imho. Specially if theyre going to gimp the battlemaster in the process.

I get that it makes weapons and other loot more unique but they have to keep in mind the balancing aspect of it as well.

Your example of losing your action for 2 turns.... Lolwhut? crazy what were they smoking when they made that item?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Especially if combined with the ability to freely cycle through weapons (still in the game?),

Actually, switching your equipment in any way now takes your action - the game does not Tell you that it will, and there's no indication that changing an equip will cost your action, but it does. As implemented right now, this means that we cannot benefit from the free-action single draw that we're supposed to have, and it also means we can change plate armour and other heavy items in a single action, on the flip side.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Especially if combined with the ability to freely cycle through weapons (still in the game?),

Actually, switching your equipment in any way now takes your action - the game does not Tell you that it will, and there's no indication that changing an equip will cost your action, but it does. As implemented right now, this means that we cannot benefit from the free-action single draw that we're supposed to have, and it also means we can change plate armour and other heavy items in a single action, on the flip side.
Well, that's progress...I guess? At least it means that Larian has acknowledged that unlimited equipment/weapon swapping in combat is an issue.

If this somehow remains the implementation, then eh I wouldn't be too annoyed if special weapon attacks replaced a single attack. If anything, that'd be needed to compensate for the significant nerf to martials.

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Most "special attacks" in 5e either just replace standard weapon attacks or are "on hit" effects that you can decide upon after making a weapon attack and hitting (e.g. divine smite, maneuvers, sneak attack). You should be able to do these on each of your attacks unless the ability specifically specifies that they're a once per turn ability (sneak attack).

As for Larian's homebrewed special attacks, a lot of these are way too powerful to let players use them more than once per combat, let alone once per turn. Special weapon attacks should only be a once per rest thing and a lot of the more powerful ones need to be removed. Some of them are fine due to being situationally useful and not that much more powerful than regular attacks, such as cleave which lets you once per rest attack up to 3 enemies in a small aoe with damage equal to a regular weapon attack if the attack rolls are successful. Others are extremely overpowered, especially those that inflict some of Larian's homebrewed conditions.

The barbarian special weapon attacks are a unique thing that definitely need to be examined. Anything that inflicts a condition should require a saving throw and should be situational such that they don't replace normal attacks such as diving strike's prerequisites. Anything that hits more than one target or deals more damage than a normal weapon attack needs to have sort of restriction/resource (maybe once per rage or an amount equal to proficiency per rest). They also really need to take a look at a lot of the persistent damage conditions and effect since they really don't work with a lot of 5e's mechanics such as concentration.

As an aside, Larian really needs to add a penalty to Frenzy since getting an extra weapon attack that deals full damage at level 3 is pretty powerful. I get that in tabletop the exhaustion penalty is so damaging that berserker is just worse than other barbarian subclasses, but there needs to be atleast some downside to getting a second attack before level 5. Perhaps they can give a temporary level of exhaustion that lasts for a single round during which you can't rage again.

Larian also needs to change the way a lot of on-hit "special attacks" work so that they can be used together. In 5e tabletop you can do something like a battlemaster maneuver and a smite or a reckless attack and a sneak attack in the same attack provided that the conditions for each are met. You can't in BG3 since these are considered separate types of actions/attacks which is going to be a real problem once multiclassing or certain feats are introduced.

tldr: homebrewed special attacks should have some sort of restriction or resource unless they're specific enough that they will not replace normal attacks. Anything that's directly from 5e should work the way it currently does in 5e. Special attacks should not make normal attacks redundant or uncommon. You should have reasons to just hit somebody normally.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneHobbit
As for Larian's homebrewed special attacks, a lot of these are way too powerful to let players use them more than once per combat, let alone once per turn.
This isnt exactly the question. smile
They are curently restricted to once per rest (not sure if S/L) ... and personaly im quite fine with this.

Question of topic is more like if we should be allowed to use two different (since they are limited) Larian's weapon attacks in single round, once our martial classes reach level 5 and get Extra Attack.

Take 2H Sword for example ...
You use Lacerate as your first attack ... should you be able to use Cleave right afterwards?

Sure there are stronger options, but this is the one i remember. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 16/04/22 08:14 AM.

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I did not test it in game especially but in my opinion you should be allowed to use any possible attack for an action as you wish. I don't see special attacks as such a powerful unbalancing tool. Sometimes it might be advantageous to fire two special attacks in a row, sometimes not. It depends on the fight and what is still to come in further turns. We should also not base possibilities on meta knowledge of each fight but on the insecurity you have during the first encounter. Is it wise to possibly waste the special attacks on the current targets instead of sparing it for the rest of the threats? We often talk as if we would knew any move to be done in any fight to come, perhaps an EA curse because of the inadequacy of player time-to-waste and game content...

I would also not follow a strict ruleset here. For example "Hide", I would not implement new checks but solve it from the class perspective: Rogue can use it as bonus action, perhaps Trickery domain Cleric, but nobody else. On the other hand, I would not follow the "preserve class rule" in case of special weapon attacks. I don't care wether Fighter Battlemaster is "relativised" by weapon special attacks made by others. Battlemaster is still a lot better than any dabbler using special weapon attacks.

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