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GM4Him #815395 21/05/22 03:55 PM
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@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/05/22 03:59 PM.
mrfuji3 #815396 21/05/22 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use.
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GM4Him #815398 21/05/22 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Archaven
in my opinion should follow dnd5e rules.

Yeah. Problem is that it's not that simple. They have to program a way to limit resting like a live DM would. THAT is the trick. That's why we're endlessly discussing it.

A live DM would say, "No. You can't rest in the burning nautiloid after defeating 3 Devourers. You need to find a safer location first." A live DM would say, "No. You've triggered the hag side quest. You can't long rest until it's done. I might let you short rest, but no ;ong quest.". And a live DM would not make the hag so tough so that you needed to Long rest before fighting her so you could do the entire quest without needing a long rest.

The main issue with BG3 has to do with what also makes it so awesome. Freedom. You are free to trigger the hag quest but then free to walk away. You aren't locked into completing it. Same with all the quests.

So, the result of freedom is that you are free to trigger the quest and then long rest as much as you want. Why, because you are free to go in whatever direction you want. If long rest is locked, you wouldn't have that freedom.

That's why I think the best solution isn't locking, it's soft penalties. Trigger the hag and long rest. She's still waiting for you because it's a game to her, but now she's more prepared. Maybe she has minions now to help her whereas if you faced her right away she'd be alone. That is what I keep trying to say. Small, easy to implement consequences to discourage LR and encourage SR.

i think triggered quest can still be managed so that they are not free to travel anywhere else and if they do so, make it that the quest will fail. Or once triggered which may need a physical mechanism like a door or once entered the location, the tunnel collapse you can't get out until you complete the area. However, i don't really like the idea of using LR and SR as a challenge mechanism. I'm not sure the possibility perhaps is the nature of the dnd5e ruleset, IMO challenge should always tie to party or character level. For example, if your level 4 party WITH LR shouldn't be able to bring down a level 20 dragon for example (for analogy sake). If that's allowed, then i believe the problem lies to the ruleset itself.

i would rather that an encounter be challenging regardless you LR or SR. the challenge depends fully on the encounter design itself. For example clever mixing of the terrains, the placement of structures/buildings/heights and a mix of few elite monster with a boss (or even 2) and some cannon fodders. i don't oppose the idea of some battles or encounters that uses the careful planning of LR or SR for you to complete an area. But every encounter design based on this rule IMO is bad. And the placement of the LR camp is dictated by the game devs themselves. Which means there are not much freedom. It's just beat this encounter the way dictated by how the developers want it to be.

i would like challenge to be more of what spells should you be preparing, what are your level for you to beat this encounter, what weapons or spells, consumable? and approach will be the best to tackle this encounter rather than said.. you gotta save your resources and just use normal attack and cantrips to win this easy fights and drink potions to replenish your health, and only use SR after 3rd of 4th waves and only use ALL your resources and save it for the final boss battle.

Last edited by Archaven; 21/05/22 06:10 PM.
Icelyn #815399 21/05/22 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?

Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use.
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Please quote all the relevant parts thanks.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use. However, the game should then be designed (or at very least balanced after the fact) for having full hp/resources each fight. And [Larian doesn't do this].

Flooter #815400 21/05/22 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wow. So much knit picking.
You’re right. I apologize for that. And I acknowledge the length of my LR is irrelevant.

I still suggest you try to be your own DM. You can absolutely push your party beyond the point when they ask for a rest. You know the game well enough to find the right challenge for the ressources you have available. Some fights need everything you’ve got; most don’t.

This isn’t a solution to the overall problem, nor is it helpful for new players. This is a friendly suggestion that might be a welcome change of pace.

Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.

mrfuji3 #815403 21/05/22 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
@mrfuji - Perfectly fine in A-RPG (and FPS, and...), but not in party and turn based Crpg imo. It wouldnt make sense to me.
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?

I may be wrong but I don't remember that you're fully healed after combats in DoS. Am I wrong ?

About cooldown if thats what you were talking about... its an entire other system in which you absolutely dont have to end combats to recover (most of?) your class features and spells.
You dont "auto regain" anything... the cooldown just come to an end.

If short rests are meant to be a "restoration spell" I guess they could just have allowed healing words as a ritual spell... maybe another bad decision between DoS and DnD.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/05/22 07:25 PM.
GM4Him #815404 21/05/22 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.
Ok, I get those arguments.

For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of your proposal to nudge the story and world along with LR. As you say, big consequences need to be clearly explained and have plenty of run up time and reminders. But it would do wonders to make the world more vibrant and breathe new life into the resting system.


TRIBE!
Flooter #815406 21/05/22 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Been my own DM. Done that. It's like playing chess by myself and choosing which side I want to win. There's no meaning in it.

Besides, I'm always a DM. I play D&D video games so the game can be my DM and I can finally be a player.
Ok, I get those arguments.

For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of your proposal to nudge the story and world along with LR. As you say, big consequences need to be clearly explained and have plenty of run up time and reminders. But it would do wonders to make the world more vibrant and breathe new life into the resting system.

Let me know also say that I love this game. Even if my suggestion doesn't get implemented, I'll still love it. Do I think the game would be better if they gave story elements based on LR? Absolutely. But, in the end, if I have to DM myself, I will. I just won't like it as much.

GM4Him #815407 21/05/22 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The resting system as a whole is not a lot better if you only use supply bags and short rests aren't more interresting or meaningfull.

(I can't even understand that some players are fine with it.
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)

But at least the food supply system makes more sense and become pretty cool.

What you're doing after click 12+ is not related at all to the resting system.

So exactly the same as it worked in bg1, bg2, nw and a lot of other games. Of course, I know that doesn't mean it should be like that, but let's face it, it doesn't work differently in past games.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 21/05/22 09:42 PM.
GM4Him #815408 21/05/22 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What's the next step in crpg ? Buttons to auto regain HP because its sooo coool in BG3 ?)
Auto-regaining HP/resources (presumably after fights) is a perfectly fine mechanic to use. However, the game should then be designed (or at very least balanced after the fact) for having full hp/resources each fight. And this is the problem I at least have with BG3. Larian has made very few efforts to balance classes to be equally strong for a single fight where you're expected to expend all your resources, but Larian also hasn't placed limitation on resting (in fact, BG3 encourages frequent resting via camp cutscenes) which encourages going into each fight will full resources. Basically they try to have it both ways.

The 2 things that do increase the power of martials per fight are:
1.) Weapon abilities - effectively giving martials pseudo spells, usable per short rest=per fight
2.) Everyone can use scrolls - literally giving martials spells (but also making all casters much more flexible)
Both of these act to close the power gap between martials spellcasters, and the former in particular are effectively per fight abilities. However, I'm skeptical that Larian implemented these mechanics in order to balance classes around single fights with full resources. Especially since there are other decisions (e.g., Quicken's implementation) which increase the power of casters too.

I would be ~okay if Larian made sweeping changes to the D&D classes to balance all classes around assuming each fight is entered with full resources. I'm not confident Larian would do this well, given the past mechanic decisions they've made (surfaces, high ground & backstab advantage, Haste&Quicken implementation, etc), but I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the goal. I've enjoyed many games with cooldown combat systems.


I do not know if the current balance can be taken as target.
One fact, we don't have any difficulty levels at the moment, which means the game has to be easier for people to complete.
The current difficulty level is more or less normal which means the game is quite simple.
In the full version of the game, there will certainly be much more difficult modes, then you will need to rest for sure every 1-2 fights.
Of course, as always, you will be able to spoil the game using multiclassing, but that is a separate issue.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
DOSI and II??? Or are you saying that those aren't crpgs?
I may be wrong but I don't remember that you're fully healed after combats in DoS. Am I wrong ?

About cooldown if thats what you were talking about... its an entire other system in which you absolutely dont have to end combats to recover (most of?) your class features and spells.
You dont "auto regain" anything... the cooldown just come to an end.

If short rests are meant to be a "restoration spell" I guess they could just have allowed healing words as a ritual spell... maybe another bad decision between DoS and DnD.
You don't auto-heal in DOSII, but you can (and are expected to) click on your bedroll for a full heal after each fight, which is essentially an auto-heal-after-combats. DOSII fights are certainly balanced assuming you start them with full HP & armor. And yes, cooldowns are a different system, but they're under the umbrella category of "full resources for every fight."

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Larian change BG3 to be cooldown-based, but that is a possible (extreme) option. Alternatively, Larian could reduce the # of spell slots for caster characters, though then they'd run into making sorcerers and warlocks too similar. Idk exactly; there's lots of possible solutions if Larian wants to go that route. My main point is that Larian should choose between the D&D "Spreading Resources Over an Adventuring Day, with Short- and Long-Rest Classes" and the "You're Expected to Go Into Each Fight with Full Resources" because having it both ways doesn't really work.

GM4Him #815410 21/05/22 09:56 PM
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My main point is that Larian should choose between the D&D "Spreading Resources Over an Adventuring Day, with Short- and Long-Rest Classes" and the "You're Expected to Go Into Each Fight with Full Resources" because having it both ways doesn't really work.

This, right here, is a big part of the problem. In fact, I would say it's THE core issue. Most fights are designed to be at your best, so you fight, sleep, fight, sleep.

I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.

GM4Him #815411 21/05/22 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
Potentially could be a tadpole power? "You call on your tadpole, using its Netherese magic to draw energy from the atmosphere and restore yourself (and your tadpole-companions)"

mrfuji3 #815414 22/05/22 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'd honestly rather have it so that you have those nautiloid full heal stations everywhere in the game than have it where I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
Potentially could be a tadpole power? "You call on your tadpole, using its Netherese magic to draw energy from the atmosphere and restore yourself (and your tadpole-companions)"

Seriously. I'd rather have that than me feeling like I am supposed to adventure for 5 minutes and then rest for the remainder of the day.

"ILLITHID POWERS, ACTIVATE!"

I HAVE played the game ignoring the characters as they tell me they're tired, and I CAN use short rests and go for a long time - on the surface anyway; the Underdark is another story and REQUIRES a lot more LR - but the game prompts the LR AND I wind up missing out on a number of character/party dialogues as a result. Missing out on story and character development sucks especially because I am actually playing D&D the way it should be played where you end day as little as possible.

And THAT is one of my biggest frustrations. I should be rewarded for not long resting, not penalized. And if LR is promoted, SR is made even more worthless.

Last edited by GM4Him; 22/05/22 02:21 AM.
GM4Him #815419 22/05/22 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I adventure for 5 minutes and spend 24 hours resting.
This, right here, is a big part of the problem. In fact, I would say it's THE core issue.

> You dont. :-/


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
GM4Him #815481 23/05/22 04:34 PM
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They need to sort out Long Rest first to make it the meaningful mechanic it's supposed to be. There's no beating around the bush with this one. All the classes have been balanced around Long Rest. It needs to have effective restrictions / tradeoffs / risks on how often you can do it.

After that the amount of Short Rests need to balanced with the Long Rest frequency. There's no point in limiting Short Rest until Long Rest is also much more limited somehow.

GM4Him #815483 23/05/22 05:23 PM
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I'm telling you that it's backwards. Limiting SR to 2 per day encourages LR more because you can LR as much as you want without any limit or penalty. Makes no sense because ALL classes benefit from LR while only a few from SR.

So, it literally makes no sense to SR. None. It's ONLY benefit is convenience - 1 button click for a half-butt heal as opposed to a full heal for 10 seconds of game time.

GM4Him #815923 31/05/22 10:18 PM
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You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

Aphex81 #815948 01/06/22 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.
2 years too late for that isnt it? laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

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Aphex81 #815954 01/06/22 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Aphex81
You are missing the best option: remove resting alltoghether and go back to cooldowns.

You are also missing the best option.
Remove DnD and rename the game.

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