Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
And yet we can also fast travel without portals using the same UI, but this method lacks an in-game explanation.
This part tho i cant agree with ...
True, we didnt get any explanation ... but part of that very fact is that we dont know if this kind of fast travel is happening "without portals" ...

Personaly i believe the contrary is true, since we still came out of portal every time we Fast Travel ...
Therefore my personal (and i can be wrong ofc.) explanation (and yes it is headcanon) is that Larian simply didnt see any reason to force us to manualy walk to nearest portal through usualy dead space, where everything is allready done ... and so they implemented QoL change, and snip that part out.
I welcome such approach ...

And even tho it can make odd situation *inside* the Goblin camp, under certain circumstances ... i have hard time thinking about at least one more such scenario. O_o
So even IF (and that is big personal if) ... i would also see this as a problem, it would still be minor one in my eyes, since you confront it once only. :-/

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This apparent uncertainty of how we fast travel without portals, when we're originally shown that fast travel relies on it, can lead to a loss of immersion.
Interesting ...
Would you like the game more, less, or about the same if teleportation portals as an in-game phenomenon didn't exist? If Fast Travel was an entirely out-of-game QoL feature where, say, we can fast travel to notable landmarks (like DOSII).

In addition to the Goblin Camp example, I'd include being able to fast travel after falling down the spider hole (when you have no idea where another portal is, there are enemies between you and other portals you could walk to, and you can't climb out of the spider hole) as another example. And this is only in Act 1 of the game. These "odd situations" might reoccur multiple times in later acts, which is why I feel it's important to give feedback about it now; hopefully Larian changes their fast travel system to at the very least remove these odd situations.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
In addition to the Goblin Camp example, I'd include being able to fast travel after falling down the spider hole (when you have no idea where another portal is, there are enemies between you and other portals you could walk to, and you can't climb out of the spider hole) as another example. And this is only in Act 1 of the game. These "odd situations" might reoccur multiple times in later acts, which is why I feel it's important to give feedback about it now; hopefully Larian changes their fast travel system to at the very least remove these odd situations.

The spider hole is another perfect example, I agree.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Completely agree with you Sharet.
All valid points.

Please Ignore Rag the nag. He argues for the sake of arguing instead chilling and having some Sake on the rocks wink

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 05/05/22 08:26 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Online Embarrased
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Do i understand you corectly?
No.
[sarcasm]Well, that certainly helped me a lot in both determining where i made the misstake, and how should i read it to understand you better.[/sarcasm] :-/

Originally Posted by Wormerine
Duh, every game map is an abstraction of what it is supposed to represent. A real life location would be uninteresting to play in.
Exactly my point ...
And yet there are people who keep claiming that ingame map is litteral transcription of the world. :-/

Originally Posted by Wormerine
The question isn't: Could it work in real life? but: Does it work in the game - from gameplay perspective and/or supporting the story the game is attempting to convey.

And you have kindly provided the answer for it
Indeed i did ...
Even tho for *this* particular question my answer would be something more like: "Well enough."

I really dont believe we *need* map rework ... it wouldnt hurt tho ... :-/

---

Originally Posted by Sharet
Still, Larian asked people to buy the EA to give them feedback (and money, but I think they were genuinely asking for feedback), so, feedback I'm giving them, like any of us here. If I think a feature is bad for the game, I'm going to say it without ill intent, but because I really wish for the game to succeed. Larian can do whatever they like with my opinions smile
That is something i would call very healthy approach ... smile

Sadly some around here started to take it in whole another level. :-/
But lets not linger in that topic.

Originally Posted by Sharet
Because, even ignoring the "exploitable scapegoat" part of the problem, I know I have the power to do something that my character shouldn't be able to (teleport from anywhere) and that doesn't make sense with the IG lore.
So ...

Save and Load ... bothers you aswell?
Being able to move your camera around the corner to see there, while your characters are still hidden behind it ... bothers you aswell?
See all dialogue options and have option to pick the one that suits your intentions best, no matter what your character "would say" ... bothers you aswell?

I presume not.

And that is why i cant quite grasp the idea that one game mechanic is bad, and her very existence is bothering you, even if you would never ever ever ever and once more ever use it ... but all others you are willing to ignore without hesitation. O_o
How is that possible that your "immersion" is not broken by any of them? They all are fiting your description "having a power to do something that your character shouldn't be able to" after all. smile

Originally Posted by Sharet
If I'm paying 59+€ to play an RPG based in the forgotten realm I don't want to force myself not to use (bad) game features in order to have a coherent experience.
And here we are. laugh
"Im a customer and i want ..."

Well, pal ... i also payd 59+€ ... if you really wish to use this parody of "argument". laugh
And i dont want to deal with boring and tedious passages ... i buyed this game to have fun ... the difference is that while i dont care what you would do in your game, you demand change that would ruin mine ... why?

You see you are customer, so you have the luxury of saying "screw you" ... Larian cant do that, they (unless they wish to piss of really many people, wich isnt best strategy if you are leading a company) need to try find a way to satisfy us both.
Its easy with me, since im willing to ignore everything you find fun and dont screw my game ...
I really hope you can in time learn something simmilar. smile It would be benefitial for everyone ... me, you and Larian. laugh

Originally Posted by Sharet
And I'm not saying it like "it's my personal taste and I want it that way". I'm saying it because it's the foundation of what constitutes an RPG experience.
Sounds like you do ... just not straight forward, but hidden behind "it allways has ben like this" ...

Originally Posted by Sharet
I must be honest, seems to me that you are really trying to be provocative in your posts and I don't find it very nice, since it is dismissive of the other person's argument.
But maybe I'm reading it the wrong way and you have no ill intentions, in that case, I apologize.
Nah i dont try ... this goes naturaly with the way im usualy speaking, even in my language. :-/
In fact even if i actualy try, i never managed to get completely rid of it. laugh
Seems like im just that kind of person, whatever that means. laugh

All i can promise you is that if i would want to insult you, provoke you, or in any other way being agresive towards you ... i would do it straight forward. smile
That i best i can do with this. laugh

Originally Posted by Sharet
or, at least, the developers should contemplate the possibility of changing it.
As i keep repeating and people keep ignoring ... as long as i can play the way i want, im happy Ragnarok and i dont give a shit about anything (nor anyone) else. laugh
Im totally selfish being and im not ashamed to admit it. :P laugh

Originally Posted by Sharet
And there is no arguing about the fact that fast travelling anywhere, in BG3, is an immersion-breaking feature for many people (this thread has plenty of them), even if one chooses not to use it.
Well ... "no arguing" ... i would not go that far.
Especialy since even claiming that there is "many" people is arguable itself ... sure, there are some in this topic, but if you count them, how many would you get ... 5? 10? even if 20 (wich i doubt) that is hardly something you can call "many" in context of whole millions of players. laugh

Plus (and i think this is really important) we should keep in ming that Larian actualy HAVE data from all people who decided to share them ... so they know MUCH better than us "how many" people actualy uses this feature ... no matter how "immersion breaking" it can be for "some" of them.
(Some, since as i stated ... it dont breaks immersion for me ... so we know for sure its claim not aplicable for everyone. wink )

And quite honestly ... if *i* would work for Larian ...
And i would have this topic on one hand, where (lets exaggerate a bit) 100 (or even a 10 000 if you want to exaggerate a lot) people are arguing that fast travel from anywhere is dumm, ugly, stupid, horrible, immersion-breaking, worse mechanic ever "no arguing about" ...
And then i would look to my other hand where i would get result from database and i would see that 17.479.135 people used it regulary ...
I know exactly wich group i would call "many". :-/ laugh

Originally Posted by Sharet
I played dozens of RPGs, Action RPGs and cRPGs
I believe we all did. smile wink
Not as if it should have any relevance tho. laugh

Originally Posted by Sharet
Not to mention that I think no one is asking to remove fast travel completely, just to make it coherent with the in-game lore and balanced in terms of mechanics, which basically translates in "make fast travel unavailable in enemy territory" or in "make fast travel only available if you touch a portal" if we want to be coherent with the worldbuilding.
I also never said that someone asked to remove fast travel completely (even tho i believe i have seen such opinion in the past ... not sure if that was here or reddit tho) ... so, while you are completely right ... im affraid we are all on same boat at this one. laugh
Lets look at those examples you used ...

- Enemy territory ...
> Goblin camp:
Honestly with this one, its much more immersion breaking for me that this even become enemy teritory. laugh
I mean just few seconds back i was drinking, eating, laughting with goblins and playing their stupid primitive chicken chasing game ...
Then i killed one of their leader (Gut) ... quietly and without a witnesses ofc ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed another one of their leader (Minthara) ... not as quietly as the first one, but as old Assassin rule say "nobody will notice if there is nobody left alive to notice" ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed last of their leaders Ragzlin ... again, not as quietly, true, but there was once again nobody left to witness it and i make sure that nobody will sound the alarm drums ... sudently whole camp, including goblins by the gate, beyond the gate on yard, even beyond the yard around another gate, and even beyond that another gate in completely different town ... they all know!
> That is immersion breaking for me. :-/
So quite the contrary to be honest ... being able to sneak out without Goblins knowing anything (via Fast Travel) is actualy more immersive for myself, than the game would be if this would be changed.
Since this way i can at least create my own headcannon that i sneak by those stupid goblins much sooner than they realized what happened ... and when i get there later, i can think that "enough time passed allready as it seems so they find their corpses" ... and even the stupidest goblin in the world may not count that 1 + 1 = 2 ... but they should be able to count stranger + dead boss = guilty. wink laugh

> Ethel Lair ...
The only place where Larian actualy created "enemy territory" most likely to test how would players react ...
You cant Fast Travel from there (unless you kill everyone first), you cant Long Rest there (same rule) ... all you can (and i did) is walk out and travel, rest, and everything as much as you want. laugh
So ... the only effect such are have is that it adds some extra walking through area you have allready completed, you allready explored, and have no longer anything to do there. laugh
Kinda dissapointing experience imho, even tho certainly immersive. laugh
I mean ... unless you decide to get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > ... that starts to get immersive breaking quite fast. laugh

> Spider hole leading to the Underdark ...
This is indeed great example and i salute mrfuji3 for bringing it up, since i would honestly never think about it. laugh
And i must simply agree here ... there is no immersive way our characters should be able to fast travel anywhere from that spot, until they find some kind of portal ...
So ... +1 to this one from me i gues. laugh

- Fast travel only from portal to portal.
Well, since i allready said few times that i do it exactly like this, even tho i dont need to ... i would not affect my gameplay in any way, so w/e i gues. laugh
But on the other hand ... just that fact that i do it makes it hard for me to believe that there is some kind of "need" of system restriction for this ... but as long as it would be optional in settings, i see no harm in such option.

Originally Posted by Sharet
I'm more than happy if Larian chooses to put a "no fast travel limitation" option on the settings menu, maybe when choosing the game difficulty.
Agreed ... the deeper, and more detailed difficiulty settings the better.
Let anyone create the experience they want. ^_^ Nobody 59€ was more worthy than any other. laugh

And since we allready discussed my expressions ...
Let me express that im happy to see such opinion, once again after so many months surrounded by people with closed eyes, stuffed years, yelling "lalalalala", and presuming their opinion will get more value, if they convince others to ignore anyone who dont agree with them. -_-

---

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Would you like the game more, less, or about the same if teleportation portals as an in-game phenomenon didn't exist?
Depends ...
Are we talking about hypotetical alternative universe where Fast Travel as it is now was never part of this game ... or are we talking about change that would potentialy come in some futher patch?

- If they would remove the waystones in next patch and we would travel from landmark to landmark without any futher changes ...
I would like it less.
Since it would create exactly those "immersion breaking" situations people are complaining about in this very topic. laugh
Take the Goblin camp for example (popular one after all) ... right now, when you want to get around the Goblin army all you need to do is sneak to Gut's room ... figure easy puzzle (or suceed on some rolls) ... climb down the ladder ... and voila! Portal! smile
If all you would get would be landmark ... you would still have to somehow get past the goblins, during that fast travel, and that would not make any sense. :-/

- If there would never ever ever be any teleportation rune in the first place, and we would only travel from landmark to landmark ...
I would probably like it about the same.
Since i walk to those runes anyway, there would be little change for me. Even tho some situations would make little less sense, as when you reach Grove faster than Minthara or Halsin ... with teleportation, you have covenient excuse, without it ... dunno, i would probably not make a fuss about it, but it would feel weird sometimes.


Thats why i said, and keep saying that i would preffer it exactly other way around ...
1) Camps should get their waystones ...
2) There should be ways to enter each and every camp from the map ... and once we do, there should be some short cinematic that would show us that our path we used is now gone (dunno, cave in, falling bridge, some traps triggers, use your imagination) ... therefore since *then* waystone would become the only way in or out our camp ... wich would make it perfectly suitable place for resting.
3) We should have some kind of options to talk with Gale (for example) about those runes, and he should either tell us that there is some kind of risk using them unless we know precisely and exactly where we want to get out ... so using them without exploring final destination first would be unwise ... or we should have option to talk with anyone else who dont have magical knowledge and agree on one of our first night that since the waystone is the only way inside ... someone should stand guard by it during the night (or we would switch, whatever).

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 05/05/22 10:23 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So ...

Save and Load ... bothers you aswell?
Being able to move your camera around the corner to see there, while your characters are still hidden behind it ... bothers you aswell?
See all dialogue options and have option to pick the one that suits your intentions best, no matter what your character "would say" ... bothers you aswell?

I presume not.

And that is why i cant quite grasp the idea that one game mechanic is bad, and her very existence is bothering you, even if you would never ever ever ever and once more ever use it ... but all others you are willing to ignore without hesitation. O_o
How is that possible that your "immersion" is not broken by any of them? They all are fiting your description "having a power to do something that your character shouldn't be able to" after all. smile

Actually yeah, all the above bother me, except the last one (I choose the dialogue option that suits my character, not the more convenient one).
But I also understand that sometimes those features are necessary given the *nature* of the game. It is inconceivable to restart the game if your party gets wiped out in a fight or stuck in a wall due to a bug.
I’m against save-scumming but save-reload is a necessary feature in almost any videogame (except maybe a rogue-like).

A feature like instant fast travel anywhere from anywhere, that doesn’t make any sense lore-wise it’s *not* a necessary feature in an RPG, all the opposite in fact, it’s detrimental since it’s taking away a core part of the RPG experience.

Because you can say “I have no interest on travel again in an area I’ve already explored, so I prefer to instant teleport away” and it makes sense, but only partially, because I can just say “I don’t want to fight enemies, I’m just here to explore and loot chests, so please Larian, place a button to instantly kill all the enemies and people that don’t like this feature well, just don’t use it”.

If we are intellectually honest we must admit such a feature would be foolish, and to ask people to just “ignore it” is ludicrous.

If BG3 is an RPG then it must provide some key experiences. Just to list some of them:
- Immersion;
- Narrative;
- Travel and Exploration;
- Resource Management;
- Combat.

If the game implements a feature that is taking away from those key experiences then it’s a bad feature, no matter if it’s ignorable or not.

And this feature takes away from a lot of those experiences:
- Immersion -> because it breaks the suspension of disbelief.
- Narrative -> for the same reason, since doesn’t make sense with the IG lore.
- Travel and Exploration-> it facilitates the player to miss out on content since incentivizes him/her to skip areas for the sake of time.
- Resource Management -> It trivializes the challenge of having to plan your decisions because it takes away a big chunk of the consequence. I just enraged a whole camp of goblins? Oh well, *pops away*.

I totally agree with you that it’s good to have the option to use unrestricted fast travel for all those players that don't care about the above points and just want to fight -> loot -> sell -> fight again, but it should be, as I said, an option, not a CORE mechanic.
The CORE mechanic must enhance all the experiences I have listed, just not to the point it makes the game too unnecessary and convoluted of course.
This is why the “portal” thing is a good decision. It makes sense lore-wise and helps to travel the map more easily. It just needs a little bit of limitation to stay coherent and for all of what I said above.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And here we are. laugh
"Im a customer and i want ..."

Well, pal ... i also payd 59+€ ... if you really wish to use this parody of "argument". laugh
And i dont want to deal with boring and tedious passages ... i buyed this game to have fun ... the difference is that while i dont care what you would do in your game, you demand change that would ruin mine ... why?

You see you are customer, so you have the luxury of saying "screw you" ... Larian cant do that, they (unless they wish to piss of really many people, wich isnt best strategy if you are leading a company) need to try find a way to satisfy us both.
Its easy with me, since im willing to ignore everything you find fun and dont screw my game ...
I really hope you can in time learn something simmilar. smile It would be benefitial for everyone ... me, you and Larian. laugh
Please, don't deliberately ignore core parts of my posts.
I’ll repeat them with other words.
I’m not demanding the game to be changed to screw *your* experience, *nor* because I feel entitled to have the game tailored around my needs. My money has the same value as yours, it’s not a *my enjoyment* vs *your enjoyment* situation.

The thing is “I paid for a FRs RPG, because it was advertised as a FRs RPG, so I expect to have an immersive experience in a FRs RPG, and I wish for bad-RPG features to be changed”.
You may not care about it, but it still is a bad RPG feature. Not a bad feature intrinsically, just a bad feature when applied to an RPG.
As I said, I’m all for having the option to toggle off the limitations on fast travel for the people who want it, but the CORE mechanic of the game should be the correct one for its genre.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sounds like you do ... just not straight forward, but hidden behind "it allways has ben like this" ...
Because it has. Genres exist because they have a history of titles with common base features that defines what should be expected of a game which is labelled as to belongs to that genre.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im totally selfish being and im not ashamed to admit it. :P laugh
Well, I respect that. But wanting to play the game as you desire doesn’t imply being unable to see if something is flawed, even if that flaw enhances your personal experience.
It’s still a conceptual flaw (relatively to the game genre) and as such should be fixed.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Plus (and i think this is really important) we should keep in ming that Larian actualy HAVE data from all people who decided to share them ... so they know MUCH better than us "how many" people actualy uses this feature ... no matter how "immersion breaking" it can be for "some" of them.
(Some, since as i stated ... it dont breaks immersion for me ... so we know for sure its claim not aplicable for everyone. wink )

And quite honestly ... if *i* would work for Larian ...
And i would have this topic on one hand, where (lets exaggerate a bit) 100 (or even a 10 000 if you want to exaggerate a lot) people are arguing that fast travel from anywhere is dumm, ugly, stupid, horrible, immersion-breaking, worse mechanic ever "no arguing about" ...
And then i would look to my other hand where i would get result from database and i would see that 17.479.135 people used it regulary ...
I know exactly wich group i would call "many". :-/ laugh
Yeah, but from this point of view also junk food is healthy because tons of people eat it.
If a lot of people don't find junk food (fast travel) to be unhealthy (un-immersive) doesn’t mean it’s true.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I also never said that someone asked to remove fast travel completely (even tho i believe i have seen such opinion in the past ... not sure if that was here or reddit tho) ... so, while you are completely right ... im affraid we are all on same boat at this one. laugh
Lets look at those examples you used ...

- Enemy territory ...
> Goblin camp:
Honestly with this one, its much more immersion breaking for me that this even become enemy teritory. laugh
I mean just few seconds back i was drinking, eating, laughting with goblins and playing their stupid primitive chicken chasing game ...
Then i killed one of their leader (Gut) ... quietly and without a witnesses ofc ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed another one of their leader (Minthara) ... not as quietly as the first one, but as old Assassin rule say "nobody will notice if there is nobody left alive to notice" ... and i was still able to drink, eat, laugh, and chase the chicken ...
Then i killed last of their leaders Ragzlin ... again, not as quietly, true, but there was once again nobody left to witness it and i make sure that nobody will sound the alarm drums ... sudently whole camp, including goblins by the gate, beyond the gate on yard, even beyond the yard around another gate, and even beyond that another gate in completely different town ... they all know!
> That is immersion breaking for me. :-/
So quite the contrary to be honest ... being able to sneak out without Goblins knowing anything (via Fast Travel) is actualy more immersive for myself, than the game would be if this would be changed.
Since this way i can at least create my own headcannon that i sneak by those stupid goblins much sooner than they realized what happened ... and when i get there later, i can think that "enough time passed allready as it seems so they find their corpses" ... and even the stupidest goblin in the world may not count that 1 + 1 = 2 ... but they should be able to count stranger + dead boss = guilty. wink laugh

> Ethel Lair ...
The only place where Larian actualy created "enemy territory" most likely to test how would players react ...
You cant Fast Travel from there (unless you kill everyone first), you cant Long Rest there (same rule) ... all you can (and i did) is walk out and travel, rest, and everything as much as you want. laugh
So ... the only effect such are have is that it adds some extra walking through area you have allready completed, you allready explored, and have no longer anything to do there. laugh
Kinda dissapointing experience imho, even tho certainly immersive. laugh
I mean ... unless you decide to get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > get in, leave out, rest > ... that starts to get immersive breaking quite fast. laugh

> Spider hole leading to the Underdark ...
This is indeed great example and i salute mrfuji3 for bringing it up, since i would honestly never think about it. laugh
And i must simply agree here ... there is no immersive way our characters should be able to fast travel anywhere from that spot, until they find some kind of portal ...
So ... +1 to this one from me i gues. laugh

- Fast travel only from portal to portal.
Well, since i allready said few times that i do it exactly like this, even tho i dont need to ... i would not affect my gameplay in any way, so w/e i gues. laugh
But on the other hand ... just that fact that i do it makes it hard for me to believe that there is some kind of "need" of system restriction for this ... but as long as it would be optional in settings, i see no harm in such option.

Well, I’m happy we can find common ground on the main body of the argument. I totally agree with you here.

To sum up my point of view, free of any negativity to be perceived in my tone:
I do not advocate for those changes because I want to take away the fun from other people's playthroughs. I advocate for those changes because I find that RPGs should have systems implemented to be coherent with the in-game lore, so as to benefit the immersion factor.
If one chooses to play an RPG, one should be aware that, in this genre, immersion takes precedence over QoL features.
That said, I’m more than happy for people who like QoL more than immersion to have the option to change the settings to best fit their needs.
But this is still an RPG, so I think, as written above, that the core mechanics should favour immersiveness over QoL, and not the opposite.

At the end of the day, we will both be happy and the game will rightfully be called an RPG, at least concerning this aspect 😊

Anyway, I doubt I can add anything more to enrich the debate. I’ll be more than pleased to follow how you people will comment on the matter tho!

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Sharet
If one chooses to play an RPG, one should be aware that, in this genre, immersion takes precedence over QoL features.
Disagree with this!!!

Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Originally Posted by Sharet
If I'm paying 59+€ to play an RPG based in the forgotten realm I don't want to force myself not to use (bad) game features in order to have a coherent experience.
On top of that if the game was already design with certian feature in place (like an ability to teleport from any where you want) the game might not be tested to work well without it.

It reminds me how when a new AA-AAA RPG is released there is a subset of players asking for no quest markers. And while UI can be turned off in most games, it doesn't mean that quests are designed to work without them. There is undeniable advantage to designing quests and world so player can engage directly with it, though handholding player I am sure makes things much easier for the devs.

Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And yet there are people who keep claiming that ingame map is litteral transcription of the world. :-/
Nope. People complain about quality of the map and systems of the game. Some players just are being able to "buy into fiction" or suspend their disbelief.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Wormerine
The question isn't: Could it work in real life? but: Does it work in the game - from gameplay perspective and/or supporting the story the game is attempting to convey.

And you have kindly provided the answer for it
Indeed i did ...
Even tho for *this* particular question my answer would be something more like: "Well enough."

I really dont believe we *need* map rework ... it wouldnt hurt tho ... :-/
Which is absiutely fine for you to disagree. The purpose isn't to convice everyone who enjoys the game that they are wrong, but to give feedback to Larian about things that I as a player don't enjoy. I don't like artificiality of the map, and I don't like how fast travel is implemented. As usual, Larian has power to take this feedback into consideration and do something about it, or not.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Sharet
If one chooses to play an RPG, one should be aware that, in this genre, immersion takes precedence over QoL features.
Disagree with this!!!

Oh c'mon.
With all due respect but let's not hide behind a bush. It's called RPG for a reason, Role-Playing Game. Role-Playing (=immersion) is the core concept of the genre, of course it takes the utmost precedence over everything else.
This doesn't mean it must have zero QoL features, it still needs to be fun, but still, immersion takes precedence.

Otherwise, go to a renaissance fair or to a LARP while driving a scooter between the tents because "it's a quality of life feature that lets me move faster" and see if the people there are of your same opinion.

The current iteration of fast travelling in this game is exactly like that scooter. I can refuse to use it but it's still there, parked next to a horse. It's a bit difficult to stay immersed in this scenario.

Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
As it has been said countless times, it seems like the solution that makes everyone happiest is for the game to be designed with limited fast travel, but with the option to remove that restriction.
This is the answer to so many of the issues and concerns we all have here with this game: OPTIONS. The one thing that truly shines in both Solasta and the Pathfinder games is the large number of options provided for players to customize their game-playing experience, and by extension then, their game-playing fun and happiness. If only Larian will come forward and at least tell us: "Yes, we will have a TON of gameplay and rules options available in BG3; we're just not ready to tell you about them all just yet, but we assure you they will be present. A LOT of them." This is all they need to do at this point to ease the concerns of so many of us.

Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
As it has been said countless times, it seems like the solution that makes everyone happiest is for the game to be designed with limited fast travel, but with the option to remove that restriction.
This is the answer to so many of the issues and concerns we all have here with this game: OPTIONS. The one thing that truly shines in both Solasta and the Pathfinder games is the large number of options provided for players to customize their game-playing experience, and by extension then, their game-playing fun and happiness. If only Larian will come forward and at least tell us: "Yes, we will have a TON of gameplay and rules options available in BG3; we're just not ready to tell you about them all just yet, but we assure you they will be present. A LOT of them." This is all they need to do at this point to ease the concerns of so many of us.
The main issue with adding options is that doing so can require substantial work. Similarly, reworking the game can also require a lot of effort and time. However, limiting fast travel to only using portals requires ~0 work, as does adding an option to remove that requirement. (Compared to making all monsters and encounters match 5e RAW or implementing a RtwP option, both of which would take significant work).

And yes, Larian's lack of communication has been an ever-present issue throughout this EA process. Just tell us, broadly, what is planned, what is still being considered, and what is set in stone so we can focus our feedback!!! Have a reddit AMA every once in a while, or even tweet out ~biweekly "this is what this developer/artist/etc has been working on this week!"

Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
As it has been said countless times, it seems like the solution that makes everyone happiest is for the game to be designed with limited fast travel, but with the option to remove that restriction.
This is the answer to so many of the issues and concerns we all have here with this game: OPTIONS. The one thing that truly shines in both Solasta and the Pathfinder games is the large number of options provided for players to customize their game-playing experience, and by extension then, their game-playing fun and happiness. If only Larian will come forward and at least tell us: "Yes, we will have a TON of gameplay and rules options available in BG3; we're just not ready to tell you about them all just yet, but we assure you they will be present. A LOT of them." This is all they need to do at this point to ease the concerns of so many of us.
The main issue with adding options is that doing so can require substantial work. Similarly, reworking the game can also require a lot of effort and time. However, limiting fast travel to only using portals requires ~0 work, as does adding an option to remove that requirement. (Compared to making all monsters and encounters match 5e RAW or implementing a RtwP option, both of which would take significant work).

And yes, Larian's lack of communication has been an ever-present issue throughout this EA process. Just tell us, broadly, what is planned, what is still being considered, and what is set in stone so we can focus our feedback!!! Have a reddit AMA every once in a while, or even tweet out ~biweekly "this is what this developer/artist/etc has been working on this week!"
On the 'options create work' point, if Owlcat and TA--with a very tiny fraction of Larian's budget and workforce--can do it, then so can Larian.

On Larian's communication, what I hope Larian will see fit to do at some point is to run an event entirely directed at us Larian forumites. Yes we are a very small fraction of the total fanbase. But we are much, much more intensely invested in the success of the game than those tens of thousands of casual players out there, and our feedback is surely more detailed, nuanced, and thoughtful. As such I would hope that we forumites matter to Larian. So it would be at least a nice gesture on Swen's part to do one of those PFH events where the whole event is exclusively to address and discuss the major issues that have been raised in numerous lengthy threads in this forum.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Online Embarrased
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Sharet
except the last one (I choose the dialogue option that suits my character, not the more convenient one).
I admit ... you surprised me with this one (not with the rest, even tho its a bit extreme approach imho, but whatever makes you happy)
I would expect you mind it just aswell ...

I mean, you mind that you only have option to "coveniently teleport back to camp" no matter if you do it or not, the very existence of that option bothered you.
So i would expect you will be bothered by that you know exactly wich character you can try to persuate, wich you can try to intimidate, and wich you can try to i dunno for example bribe ... no matter what you choose in the end ... same rule you know, just the very existence of that option.

Well ... seems i was wrong. O_o


Originally Posted by Sharet
But I also understand that sometimes those features are necessary given the *nature* of the game. It is inconceivable to restart the game if your party gets wiped out in a fight or stuck in a wall due to a bug.
I’m against save-scumming but save-reload is a necessary feature in almost any videogame (except maybe a rogue-like).
There are ways ...
Have you played Vampyr? You might like their approach ... there are only autosaves, nothing else ... there is no way to load, except when you die you get respawned, every time you make any choice game will IMEDIATELY save, so you cant make your investigation and then pick the most covenient one. laugh

Immersive huh?

Developers presented it with kinda smug statement "learn to live with your decisions" ...
Shame, those decisions you get are often limited and you are forced to pick no matter what you would like to do, without having anything fitting your character ... for example:
There is dying man:
You can murder him in cold blood by drinking his blood ...
You can turn him into a Vampire ...
And you can help him find closure and die peacefully.

Sounds like you have all the options you would need huh? Well, you dont ... since the last one is locked unless you make specific choices in the past, and investigate long enough with other NPCs, hints, side quests, and lore items ...
So if you play a Good character (as i tryed to) unwilling to turn people into bloodthirsty monsters, or becoming one yourself ... you find yourself in dead end here ... just bcs developers decided that. :-/


Originally Posted by Sharet
A feature like instant fast travel anywhere from anywhere, that doesn’t make any sense lore-wise it’s *not* a necessary feature in an RPG, all the opposite in fact, it’s detrimental since it’s taking away a core part of the RPG experience.
I get you feel that way ...
But im simply unable to understand how something you never experience can ruin your experience. :-/

So i gues this is the best understanding i can hope for.


Originally Posted by Sharet
Because you can say “I have no interest on travel again in an area I’ve already explored, so I prefer to instant teleport away” and it makes sense, but only partially, because I can just say “I don’t want to fight enemies, I’m just here to explore and loot chests, so please Larian, place a button to instantly kill all the enemies and people that don’t like this feature well, just don’t use it”.

If we are intellectually honest we must admit such a feature would be foolish, and to ask people to just “ignore it” is ludicrous.
In the same honesty i can admit to you that i would not mind such feature at all ... exactly for that reason that i would ignore it. laugh
I say if someone wish to spend their money for game and then ruin it for himself ... its his fault. laugh

Same approach i had on VtM:Bloodlines 2 forum ... back in the days when we still believed it will happen. laugh
One day rumor showed on internet that game will contain trigger warnings for certain missions, and if people would feel uncomfortable with their content, they would be able to skip them.
People on forum was outraged ... i still dont quite understand why. laugh
If someone wants to spend their money to do: Skip > Skip > Skip > ... > Skip > And then watch final credits ... i say let them, its their decision. laugh


Originally Posted by Sharet
If the game implements a feature that is taking away from those key experiences then it’s a bad feature, no matter if it’s ignorable or not.
I simply cant agree with this ...
You are right in general, sure ... but we are still talking just about your (and few other) personal prefferences, hardly anything more. :-/

And dont be mad at me (or be if you feel like its adequate reaction, its not like i can do anything about it), but this just seems exaggerated ...

I mean ... okey, lets say that the very existence of posibility to Fast Travel no matter where you stand ruins your experience, okey?
I repeat for some other users: LETS SAY.

Now ...
If you would need to reach and touch Waypoint to Fast Travel ... that would be okey i presume?

Now presuming that ...
If there would be option in settings you can turn on anytime you want, that would allow you to Fast Travel without needing to reach Waystone ... would that be okey?

And if so ... how is that mechanical option forcing you to reach that Waypoint any different from you simply ignoring the possibility? O_o
I mean ... i dare to presume you dont usualy Fast Travel accidentaly ... or do you?


Originally Posted by Sharet
And this feature takes away from a lot of those experiences:
- Immersion -> because it breaks the suspension of disbelief.
- Narrative -> for the same reason, since doesn’t make sense with the IG lore.
- Travel and Exploration-> it facilitates the player to miss out on content since incentivizes him/her to skip areas for the sake of time.
- Resource Management -> It trivializes the challenge of having to plan your decisions because it takes away a big chunk of the consequence. I just enraged a whole camp of goblins? Oh well, *pops away*.
I cant unnotice that you didnt coment on my perception of immersion on Goblin camp ...
I would really like to know how your immersion and naration even deals with the fact that "you just enraged a whole camp of goblins" ... "of wich nobody was close enough to see, or hear what happened". laugh


Originally Posted by Sharet
I totally agree with you that it’s good to have the option to use unrestricted fast travel for all those players that don't care about the above points and just want to fight -> loot -> sell -> fight again, but it should be, as I said, an option, not a CORE mechanic.
This starting to seem like pure phylosophical topic ...
If tree falls and there will be nobody to hear it, will it make "a sound" ... or just air vibrations? smile

I mean ...
I get you ... or at least i think i do ... the only difference between us is that for me, once im not forced to use any mechanic, it is just an option. laugh


Originally Posted by Sharet
I’m not demanding the game to be changed to screw *your* experience, *nor* because I feel entitled to have the game tailored around my needs.

Oh you missunderstand me ...
I dont say you do ... i say that is what will happen, if your wish will be fulfilled. laugh
Your intentions are actualy quite irellevant here.

Example from the past:
Do you remember spellcasting from Patch 1?
People were complaining around here that having all spell levels on hotbar separately takes too much space, and that we should get some kind of popup window, where we will be choosing our spell level.
So instead of Magic Missile 1 and Magic Missile 2 ... we would only get Magic Missile on our hotbar and then decide if we wish to use 1 or 2 ... just as we do now.
*I* (and some others aswell) demanded to keep curent state possible ... you know, just as you intend "give that option for people who wants it" ...
Reason was that for some spells, there is no reason to upcast them, since they have exactly the same effect using higher spell slot ... (Mage Armor mainly, but also speak with animals, protection from evil and good, create water, discuise self, feather fall, ... and many more, that is not important) ... so *I* (and some others) wanted to keep the option to give on our hotbar spell level 1 if we wish to, so we dont need to deal with this stupid and useless level choosing every time we will use that spell.

What did we get?
Exactly ... popup windows for everything!
So since then, even tho options for people who wanted them was supported by some comunity members, *our* (or at least *mine*) experience was ruined, no matter the intentions. smile
Not in some huge important major way, so the game become unplayable, that is true ... but it get unnnecesay more anoying and tedious. :-/

Since then i keep asking for the possibility ... so far without any hope for sucess.
And that is why i say this is what would happen. wink


Originally Posted by Sharet
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sounds like you do ... just not straight forward, but hidden behind "it allways has ben like this" ...
Because it has.
Everyhing happens "the way it allways had" ... until it dont anymore. smile
This process is usualy called evolution. laugh

I admit that not all changes have to be good ... but you never know, until you try. :P


Originally Posted by Sharet
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im totally selfish being and im not ashamed to admit it. :P laugh
Well, I respect that. But wanting to play the game as you desire doesn’t imply being unable to see if something is flawed, even if that flaw enhances your personal experience.
It’s still a conceptual flaw (relatively to the game genre) and as such should be fixed.
Is it tho? smile
Or is that just covenient excuse to add your words some value, so you dont need to say straight forwars "i just dont like it this way" ? smile


Originally Posted by Sharet
Yeah, but from this point of view also junk food is healthy because tons of people eat it.
If a lot of people don't find junk food (fast travel) to be unhealthy (un-immersive) doesn’t mean it’s true.
Eh ... no? laugh
If lots of people eats junk food (use fast travel) ... you see lots of people eat junk food (use fast travel) ... you can presume they like it (dont find it unimersive), or they dont care (dont care laugh ) its unhealthy (unimersive) ... but its values dont change. wink

There is no link between un/healthyness(?) of junk food and amount of its consumation im affraid. smile

But if we play "lets say" once again ...
And presume your argument is valid for a few seconds ...
If a lot of people don't find junk food (fast travel) to be unhealthy (un-immersive) doesn’t mean it’s true.
> True ... it doesnt mean its true ... it means it dont matter. wink

---

Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And yet there are people who keep claiming that ingame map is litteral transcription of the world. :-/
Nope. People complain about quality of the map and systems of the game. Some players just are being able to "buy into fiction" or suspend their disbelief.
Im affraid we both are talking about completely different people here:
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Our characters litteraly walk less than 10min to go from the beach to the arcane tower.


Originally Posted by Wormerine
The purpose isn't to convice everyone who enjoys the game that they are wrong, but to give feedback to Larian about things that I as a player don't enjoy.
My purpose is exactly the same. smile
You say what you dont like ... i shall add what i do like about the same ... then Larian will have our both opinions at their disposal. wink

---

Originally Posted by Sharet
Oh c'mon.
With all due respect but let's not hide behind a bush. It's called RPG for a reason, Role-Playing Game. Role-Playing (=immersion) is the core concept of the genre, of course it takes the utmost precedence over everything else.
This doesn't mean it must have zero QoL features, it still needs to be fun, but still, immersion takes precedence.
Precedence is fine ... and i dont think even Icelyn would have problem with it ... "in general" ...

The problem here is that word "immersion" however funny it may sound is incredibly subjective. laugh
And while we all can agree on precedence that immersion is important for roleplay game ... and yes, i believe that even Icelyn would agree on this ...
And while we all maybe would agree on precedence that immersion should take priority over QoL ... here i start doubt that she would ...
Problem starts when we try to define WICH QoL features should be moved on second grade, in matter of priorities. laugh


Originally Posted by Sharet
Otherwise, go to a renaissance fair or to a LARP while driving a scooter between the tents because "it's a quality of life feature that lets me move faster" and see if the people there are of your same opinion.
Do you know many single player larps?
I dont think i ever participate (or even hear about as the matter of fact) on any. laugh


Originally Posted by Sharet
The current iteration of fast travelling in this game is exactly like that scooter. I can refuse to use it but it's still there, parked next to a horse. It's a bit difficult to stay immersed in this scenario.
Well ...
As long as the scooter is actualy invisible, makes no sound or smell and nobody except you is even recognizing its existence ... yes, its exactly same. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/05/22 10:54 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
My god, stop hydrating the troll! Its pointless lol. If you want to argue with him keep it short and stupid.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 06/05/22 11:47 PM.
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Sharet
If one chooses to play an RPG, one should be aware that, in this genre, immersion takes precedence over QoL features.
Disagree with this!!!
OF COURSE you do.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Sharet
If one chooses to play an RPG, one should be aware that, in this genre, immersion takes precedence over QoL features.
Disagree with this!!!
OF COURSE you do.
evil evil evil

Joined: Dec 2019
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Dec 2019
I would rather they have a fast travel that works in the lore with out being gamey, such as fast walk, backtrack revisit a place quickly a small walking cutscene of your party briefly setting off walking and appearing at the new sign post or landmark

you should also be camping in the area you are in, camp should be set up in the zone you are currently walking, or in a near clearing, if in a building inside one of its room.
and the risk of being attacked on rest is missing imo

Last edited by Xzoviac; 08/05/22 10:57 AM.
Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
The only thing that needs to happen is making fast travel actual accelerated travel on-foot rather than a magical teleport.

Move a party icon on a map. No limits needed other than having been to the locations before. All appropriate limitations come naturally when you are really traveling from A to B, just faster. It's the most simple and elegant choice. I don't understand why Larian had to reinvent the wheel here and create a nonsensical magical teleportation rune network.

Random encounters would be a good way to breathe at least some life into already explored areas and make the world feel less scripted and controllable.

Last edited by 1varangian; 08/05/22 11:02 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Online Embarrased
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't understand why Larian had to reinvent the wheel here and create a nonsensical magical teleportation rune network.
There was few reasons mentioned in this very topic. O_o

Just to list some:
Teleportation is quite normal way of traveling in this world ...
Netherese magic seems to play vital role in the story ...
Immersion reasons (you cant fast-walk through guards ... but you can easily teleport behind them) ...

And the (imho) most important one:
It would make litteraly no difference compared to what we have now ... you would simply dissapear on one place, and reappear on another one. O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/05/22 12:44 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
One thing I would love to see is the Tiny Hut spell getting implemented in BG3 for travel camping. That would be very cool if there's a way to implement it well.

Page 7 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5