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I've said something similar before, but I'm creating a new thread and saying it again for the following reason:

I have been trying to play Pathfinder: Kingmaker. I've been trying to like this game, but I hate it. Why? I've trying to play on Core Difficulty setting, using true Pathfinder rules. The game is okay to start, but it quickly becomes hard as a butt cheek (spoilers for Kingmaker).
I FINALLY beat the Stag Lord after having to reload 500 times (exaggeration, of course), and only AFTER sneaking around and murdering most of his minions before the fight, and even doing this I had to reload 500 times to kill all the minions BEFORE I fought the Stag Lord and his crazy minions - and this only succeeding BECAUSE I did everything just right, getting the 2nd to join me and help me kill him, and freeing the owlbear and everything.

But even that wouldn't have been such a big deal. Fine. It was hard. But now, I'm trying to do ANYTHING, and EVERYTHING is kicking my butt all over the gosh darn place. Now many of you who've played Pathfinder: Kingmaker might disagree, but I think it's because the gosh darn game was balanced for easier Difficulty settings and not balanced around the Core Difficulty. Core is designed, it seems, for a truly challenging gameplay; one where I have to constantly reload over and over again. For crying out loud, the random encounters are kicking my fully rested party's butt over and over and over again no matter where I go on the darn map. And then, I tried to do the Bald Hill quest, and I finally won after countless reloads, but two of my toughest party members died - and it's 6,000 gold to resurrect one!

THAT is what I don't want them to do with BG3. I want them to balance the game with the 5e Core Difficulty so that I'm not getting my bum kicked if I try to play by the standard D&D 5e rules. I don't want to have to play by the homebrew baby nerfed rules, which are actually balanced gameplay, just so I can complete the game.

And that's what I'm afraid they're doing. Right now, the game is balanced with all the homebrew stuff. So, even if they give us the 5e Core Ruleset more faithfully adapted, I'm thinking that I'm going to hate it because I'm going to try to do a playthrough with it, and all the dang monsters are going to kick my butt.

So PLEASE, Larian. Don't do that. Balance the game around 5e. Either balance it around 5e and make current homebrew stuff Easy Mode, or balance it around both the current ruleset AND the 5e ruleset. PLEASE don't give me 5e where I'm facing 3 ACTUAL Intellect Devourers with only 2 party members at Level 1. PLEASE! Don't be like Kingmaker. PLLLLLEEEEEEEEEASE!

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Quick note: You COULD do this by making party of 6 recommended for 5e difficulty (starting the game with 4 Custom Characters) and party of 4 recommended for balanced current ruleset with party of 6 plus current ruleset being recommended beginner easy mode. I'm just saying.

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Pick the class you like and look up 5e strategies for that class, unless you dislike that part of the game.

Building an understanding a character before implementation is fun for many. There is a learning curb, but the game gets easier and can be rewarding.

There are so many ways to play, not just one. I hope you find your niche...good luck!!

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???

What does that have to do with balancing the game for a fun true 5e experience versus how they're balancing the game currently around a nerfed set of monsters so that if they were to take and make them genuine 5e monsters the game would become insanely hard?

Again, 3 intellect devourers on the beach - 2 level 1 party members. If those suckers get genuine 5e stats, that's gonna be 1 mother of a fight.

I want them to balance the whole game around 5e, don't balance it first around easy stats and rules and then sucker punch me with a 5e difficulty and expect me to somehow be happy with it when it is in no way balanced for 5e.

Last edited by GM4Him; 13/05/22 10:33 AM.
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I gues he presumed that you got your butt kicked, bcs you did something wrong ...


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Maybe. Maybe I do need to just get good on Pathfinder, but I don't know. I've tried multiple times to play using the Core difficulty, and it sucks. I might just start over on baby easy and live with nerfed rules.

It's not fun to me to play a game and have to reload constantly. That's not Roleplaying. That's Undertale Determination.

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Looking at it again. This makes no sense to me.

Normal Difficulty= Enemies and traps do 20% less damage, and critical hits are weak.

Challenging= Standard rules with full damage.

Easier modes reduce damage further.

Why not balance the game so Normal difficulty is standard rules with full damage and then have encounters built that are fun but they aren't so hard you feel like you have to save all the time and reload? Then have Challenging be increased damage by same enemies etc.?

I don't know. I just don't understand what they're thinking.

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Are you playing in TB or RtwP?

Because a game balanced for TB (Pathfinder) becomes incredibly more difficult when played in real-time. The AI suffers essentially no penalty, whereas your efficiency drops to maybe 20% at best (assuming you're not pausing multiple times per second).

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I have never played a game where the DM nerfed damage.

Now I have played in an internet group where you started at level two and they threw the kitchen sink at you.

Drow with darkness spells

Flaming skulls

Bulette...you name it

It was unusual to see high level characters but I sure learned tactics.


How is this:

For story mode and normal, give the AI that ridiculous 18 meter range limit and give the player all the RAW ranges back.

At veteran give the AI the same RAW rules. In fact let them play like my old DMs and hit me from afar and duck back into cover.

Larian said they didn't want player's getting hit by opponents from off screen...I say bring it!

Veteran mode should be for 5e veterans, who understand the current edition.

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Now a six man group is a good solution, and only let 4 origin characters progress.

I still would love to see a full Raw veteran mode....well me and like everyone.

But hey, mods will eventually fix this so focus on making that world feel alive.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Are you playing in TB or RtwP?

Because a game balanced for TB (Pathfinder) becomes incredibly more difficult when played in real-time. The AI suffers essentially no penalty, whereas your efficiency drops to maybe 20% at best (assuming you're not pausing multiple times per second).

TB

I've started over on normal, and it's much more balanced - at 20% damage reduction. Sigh. Exactly what I don't want for BG3.

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WoTR on core is well balanced if you are really familiar with both the rule systems plus the kind of special abilities and immunities that Demons have, because they are the most common enemy by far.

Personally, I like 'Core' being the normal for people who know the rulework very well and 'Normal' being the the difficulty for players (like me before my first playthrough) who have played lots of RPGs, but not maybe Pathfinder specifically. The game also points that out to the player specifically.

It's a game that lends itself to multiple playthroughs anyway, so there is plenty of opportunity to up the difficulty over time.

Anyway, I felt Baldur's Gate on 'Core' was just as hard as WotR, with perma-death for your characters and everything. We just tend to forget that since those of us who still play it know it inside and out, and both the Enhanced Edition and some of the common tweak mods have make it substantially easier.

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But that's my point. BG1 and 2 on EASY was hard - partially because I suck at RTWP, but regardless. I like playing using core rules, but what typically happens is they balance the game around some sort of hybrid system and if you want to play an actual, genuine D&D ruleset, you have to be really good, as if genuine D&D is just too hard.

D&D is meant to be challenging and fun as is. The rule System isn't meant to be hard or super hard, forcing players to save scum often to get through it. Yes, there is RNG, which means if luck goes south it could lead to a bad experience, but that's what saves are for. In a video game with no DM, of course there is no one to turn bad luck into a still enjoyable experience. So, saves are necessary for a video game so that if bad luck happens you can keep going and not have to Start over.

But that doesn't mean that encounters have to be geared towards non-D&D rules and monster stats. You can still build encounters that are 5e challenging and rewarding but still balanced.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
But that's my point. BG1 and 2 on EASY was hard - partially because I suck at RTWP, but regardless. I like playing using core rules, but what typically happens is they balance the game around some sort of hybrid system and if you want to play an actual, genuine D&D ruleset, you have to be really good, as if genuine D&D is just too hard.

D&D is meant to be challenging and fun as is. The rule System isn't meant to be hard or super hard, forcing players to save scum often to get through it. Yes, there is RNG, which means if luck goes south it could lead to a bad experience, but that's what saves are for. In a video game with no DM, of course there is no one to turn bad luck into a still enjoyable experience. So, saves are necessary for a video game so that if bad luck happens you can keep going and not have to Start over.

But that doesn't mean that encounters have to be geared towards non-D&D rules and monster stats. You can still build encounters that are 5e challenging and rewarding but still balanced.

My very first encounters with BG2 were quite brutal even on normal/ easy I have to recognize that. Like literally my first playthroughs. Then again i was like 6 years old back then so i had that going for me which is nice.

I get what you mean by wanting core rules settings as the primary "way to be played" but why are we providing pathfinder as an example? ( Guenuine question, I tried to play it - found it was boring as hell and absolutely despised all my companions so I uninstalled it instantely and got a refund.As a result i know nothing of the game lol).

But idk, Larian games really don't have the reputation to be hard do they? I think that's why they put that infamous patrol on the edge of the map. They tried to gather some data to see how players will react to harder encounters. But Sven is their CEO so normal core rules == Sven level difficulty.


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Part of the reason why normal is a good deal easier for the Owlcat pathfinder games is because a lot of enemies have massively inflated stats. This is a little less apparent in Kingmaker, but in WotR you can see this very clearly with a lot of enemies. The Core Rules difficulty is also a bit of a misnomer here since it's not actually core rules as in direct from tabletop. The setting closest to tabletop would probably be Challenging with enemies set to slightly weaker, but at the same time it still would be pretty far from the TT experience with how many magic items you get, the ease at which you can prebuff, general encounter design, enemy stats and behaviour, and how often you get into fights.

Part of the reason why you might be having a hard time is lack of experience with optimization in PF1E and/or system mastery. The Owlcat PF games are sort of built with the idea that the player will be using every tool they have to make their party stronger, especially on Core and Unfair where pre-buffing and optimization is practically mandatory if you want to not get crushed. You really shouldn't be playing on core for your first playthrough unless you're very familiar with 1st edition Pathfinder.

Some tips I can give you to have an easier time:
  • After you reach level 5, you'll always want to prebuff with atleast min/level buffs when you enter an area or before a big fight
  • Speaking of buffs, delay poison communal is probably one of the most important buffs in the game. You should have it on you at all times.
  • Stinking Cloud is probably one of the best CC spells in the game, especially since the aforementioned Delay Poison will make your party immune to it.
  • For difficult fights it's best to play in TB mode since you have significantly more control over your actions
  • By the endgame, make sure every party member has the blind fight feat
  • I'd reccomend playing with Death's Door, just for the sake of convenience

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@GM4Him I know this isn't the purpose of this thread, but I wanted to point out that if you're playing PF: Kingmaker with exclusively their pre-generated characters, it'll suck hard all the way through. As quickly as I had the gold to do it I purchased adventurers from Anoriel Eight Eyes. She appears at Oleg's in the beginning I think. If at all possible you want to do this at early levels because the higher level you are, the more expensive they are. My 6 person party was 5 characters I created and the pregenerated halfling Bard (because I think you almost have to keep her for some reason I can't remember right now). I don't know why it is, but I found that their pregen characters are not as optimized as is necessary to overcome challenges at "normal" difficulty. I'd specifically suggest a Dex-based archer Ranger with the Improved Animal Companion Feat, as they are busted in PF.

That said, back to the reason for this thread... Could not possibly agree more. I haven't played BG3 since trying out the Barbarian class for about an hour. I've said before, and I'll say again, that if there aren't some significant changes to the way things operate, specifically changes that allow the game to offer a much more authentic 5e experience, I won't play it again. We'll see if the next update offers anything in regards to making headway in that direction. Right now I don't hold out much hope for it. As it appears Larian is just creating the game they want to play full of astronomically hilarious shove mechanics that in no way operate under any known earthly laws of physics or gravity.


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