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The problem with exceptions?

They don't remain exceptional. If you kick over a random rock, you're sure to find a heroic Drow.

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Drow are a culturally evil society, but that obviously means that some drow aren't evil.
Shar worshippers are worshipping an evil deity by choice and thus are almost certainly evil.
Angels are (Lawful) Good essentially by definition. If they change alignment then they turn into a fiend (or other creature depending on alignment), unless I'm mistaken (e.g., Asmodeus, Zariel).

Undead...are typically evil, either because they're mindless (and try to kill people), because being evil is a prerequisite for becoming undead (lich), or because undeath corrupts your morals/thoughts until you're evil (vampire). It's interesting that WotC removed the Undead creature types from the Reborn and Dhampir lineages -> one reason they might've done this is to preserve player alignment freedom, which then implies that undead are required to be evil.

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I was not talking about devils or morality or anything like that. I was talking about whether all undead are inherently evil necessarily just because they are undead. Indeed, per the 5E Monster Manual, page 147 under the entry for Ghost it says, "Ghost. Medium undead, any alignment." I have never before seen a good ghost in a D&D module, but I guess if it fits the story, then I'd be OK with it. There sure were a lot of them at Hogwarts.

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Actually, there are several good and neutral ghosts in various official modules... Most of the time they show up as NPCs that can give information about something, or need the party's help in finding rest.

To be undead is NOT to be inherently evil, as it is for fiends, or for celestials to be inherently good; it is not possible for a fiend to be non-evil and it is not possible for a celestial to be non-good - if they become so, they change their very essence and become other creatures. This is not the case for undead - it's simply that the extreme vast majority of undead entities are so, for the various reasons that mrfuji summed up. The case and reasoning for a non-evil undead must be specific and compelling; there's got to be an explanation, but it's quite possible.

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95+% of undead are some variety of evil.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Actually, there are several good and neutral ghosts in various official modules... Most of the time they show up as NPCs that can give information about something, or need the party's help in finding rest.

To be undead is NOT to be inherently evil, as it is for fiends, or for celestials to be inherently good; it is not possible for a fiend to be non-evil and it is not possible for a celestial to be non-good - if they become so, they change their very essence and become other creatures. This is not the case for undead - it's simply that the extreme vast majority of undead entities are so, for the various reasons that mrfuji summed up. The case and reasoning for a non-evil undead must be specific and compelling; there's got to be an explanation, but it's quite possible.
Nobody is saying an undead can't be created and somehow be good and nobody is saying that an undead cant change alignment, especially through magic means.

Humans are inherently born with 2 arms and 2 legs, You don't change that description just because there are those that don't have those features.

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I don't know how it technically works in-lore for the Forgotten Realms, but I can believe ghosts being capable of any alignment while vampires, liches, more for lack of a better term, physical undead are inherently evil. After all, ghosts are typically remnants or echoes of a person's soul, so it would make sense that they share an alignment. If I were running a game I would say that most undead are inherently evil aligned unless there's some kind of magical or divine interference. Meanwhile ghosts are stritcly limited to acting within the alignment they had in life and are unable to act outside of it, sort of enforcing the idea that they aren't a whole person, and have lost the depth that life gave them.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I don't know how it technically works in-lore for the Forgotten Realms, but I can believe ghosts being capable of any alignment while vampires, liches, more for lack of a better term, physical undead are inherently evil. After all, ghosts are typically remnants or echoes of a person's soul, so it would make sense that they share an alignment. If I were running a game I would say that most undead are inherently evil aligned unless there's some kind of magical or divine interference. Meanwhile ghosts are stritcly limited to acting within the alignment they had in life and are unable to act outside of it, sort of enforcing the idea that they aren't a whole person, and have lost the depth that life gave them.
Yes ghosts and undead are basically opposites, Ghosts are the souls and undead are the soulless bodies powered by negative energy.

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Originally Posted by williams85
Nobody is saying an undead can't be created and somehow be good

Eh ... what?

Originally Posted by williams85
but he is still a vampire and therefore still undead, which means EVIL.


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by williams85
Nobody is saying an undead can't be created and somehow be good

Eh ... what?

Originally Posted by williams85
but he is still a vampire and therefore still undead, which means EVIL.
Yes what is it you are willfully missunderstanding now?
Yes undead are evil by nature just as humans are born with two legs and two arms. you rellay need to start paying attention.

Isn't it embarrasing to missunderstand people this often, you do come of quite slow you know.

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How about spend like 10% less energy invested into insulting others ... we allready have people who do that ...
And instead spend it by explaining.

One sentence say Undead =/= Evil ...
Second sentence say Undead = Evil ...

Im really curious how do you want to make them both true.


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
How about spend like 10% less energy invested into insulting others ... we allready have people who do that ...
And instead spend it by explaining.

One sentence say Undead =/= Evil ...
Second sentence say Undead = Evil ...

Im really curious how do you want to make them both true.
You know very well i wasn't insulting you since i know you are just trolling by this point.
But i can try to explain to you in even simpler terms.

If you ask someone how does a "human" look? you answer, well a person has a head, a body, two arms, and two legs etc... With that said, there are people born without some extremities. But you would never assume that about someone without seeing that person or having it explained to you that this person is missing his arms or whatever.
Ie the default configuration for a human is to not miss any limbs, anything else is abormal.

The same goes for undead. You assume them to be evil because that is what they are as a default, unless you get confirmation that they are not.
And in Astarions case it's not even a debate, since we get several confirations that he is indeed evil.

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No i dont ... it may come as surprise, but that is the reason why i said it. -_-

Now back to the topic:

Nobody said that Astarion "isnt evil" ...
The premise was Astarion "may bot be evil BECAUSE he is a vampire spawn".

See the difference?
A still equals B ...
But the topic is reason for A = B ... not the equation itself. -_-

Same as Lae'zel who was mentioned in the same post, with exactly same reasoning ...
Githyanki are not "inherently evil" ... their society makes them evil, bcs good person would not thrive there (maybe not even survive honestly) ...
Just as with Drow ...

Yeah, undeads "usualy are evil" ...
But undeads ... especialy Vampires ... also usualy are not able to walk on sunlight, not able to walk into houses without invitation, are able to clib walls without skill checks, naturaly regenerate, have natural armor, can use their claws, and are resistant for: Necrotic / Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks.
None of it apply on Astarion ...
Based on what exactly are you claiming that rule of aligment for Undead do?


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
No i dont ... it may come as surprise, but that is the reason why i said it. -_-
I don't really trust that one bit, especially after your history here, it's not the first time you are acting ignorant just for the heck of it.

Now back to the topic:

Quote
Nobody said that Astarion "isnt evil" ...
The premise was Astarion "may bot be evil BECAUSE he is a vampire spawn".

See the difference?
A still equals B ...
But the topic is reason for A = B ... not the equation itself.

I just mentioned the fact that we know astarion is evil as an aside and that was clearly mentioned in my post.

Quote
Same as Lae'zel who was mentioned in the same post, with exactly same reasoning ...
Githyanki are not "inherently evil" ... their society makes them evil, bcs good person would not thrive there (maybe not even survive honestly) ...
Just as with Drow ...
Yes they are inherently evil, it doesn't matter if you inherit it from culture or nature. It is still inherited.

Quote
Yeah, undeads "usualy are evil" ...
But undeads ... especialy Vampires ... also usualy are not able to walk on sunlight, not able to walk into houses without invitation, are able to clib walls without skill checks, naturaly regenerate, have natural armor, can use their claws, and are resistant for: Necrotic / Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks.
None of it apply on Astarion ...

This has already been explained, and verified by Astarion himself that it is the tadpoles doing.
Why would the tadpole change his alignment?
Why only his and why no one elses. And most importantly, we already know that it didn't...

Quote
Based on what exactly are you claiming that rule of aligment for Undead do?

Would you mind refrasing this question, i have no idea what you are asking?

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Baelnorns are Good-aligned Elf Liches.

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Originally Posted by williams85
I don't really trust that one bit, especially after your history here, it's not the first time you are acting ignorant just for the heck of it.
W/E ...
Its not like i can stop you being asshole i gues. -_-

And since moderators dont seem to care lately, we are doomed to deal with people like you sadly. :-/

Originally Posted by williams85
Yes they are inherently evil, it doesn't matter if you inherit it from culture or nature. It is still inherited.
Sure it matters ...

If any character, like fiend ... is evil "by nature" ... it sure can redeem itself and become good ... the problem is, it would no longer be a fiend ... (example other way around: Zariel)

If any character, like Githyanki, or Drow ... is evil "by culture" ... it sure also can redeem itself and become good ... and then it would simply be good Githyanki or Drow ... (example: Drizzt)

THAT is the difference.

Originally Posted by williams85
Why would the tadpole change his alignment?
Never said it would ...
Im saying that when Larian dont care about 90% of rules, its quite safe to presume they didnt care about the last 10% aswell.

Originally Posted by williams85
This has already been explained, and verified by Astarion himself that it is the tadpoles doing.
Funny ...
You know what else was "explained and verified by Astarion himself" ?

His own history under his master.
You know those pitiful and meaningless things like physical and psychical torture, treatment like a slave, often just for the fun of his master ...
Does that sounds familiar?
Oh yes, that is exactly (or at least close to) the society in wich Drow, or Githyanki are raised ... and this (on the contrary to them) has ben going on for CENTURIES.

Originally Posted by williams85
Would you mind refrasing this question, i have no idea what you are asking?
That will most likely be bcs you snaped out half of the sentence ... try to read it whole, it helps:

None of it apply on Astarion ...
Based on what exactly are you claiming that rule of aligment for Undead do?

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 21/05/22 11:41 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Its not like i can stop you being asshole i gues. -_-

And since moderators dont seem to care lately, we are doomed to deal with people like you sadly. :-/
Well if you're truly not a troll, i am sorry.

Quote
Sure it matters ...

If any character, like fiend ... is evil "by nature" ... it sure can redeem itself and become good ... the problem is, it would no longer be a fiend ... (example other way around: Zariel)

If any character, like Githyanki, or Drow ... is evil "by culture" ... it sure also can redeem itself and become good ... and then it would simply be good Githyanki or Drow ... (example: Drizzt)
THAT is the difference.
Yes and an undead can become good or be created good even though undead are evil by nature. But they don't stop being undead, so what was your point?


Quote
Never said it would ...
Im saying that when Larian dont care about 90% of rules, its quite safe to presume they didnt care about the last 10% aswell.
Yes it is quite safe to assume that, but i want to stay optimsitic and i still hope that larian will get their shit together..


Quote
Funny ...
You know what else was "explained and verified by Astarion himself" ?

His own history under his master.
You know those pitiful and meaningless things like physical and psychical torture, treatment like a slave, often just for the fun of his master ...
Does that sounds familiar?
Oh yes, that is exactly (or at least close to) the society in wich Drow, or Githyanki are raised ... and this (on the contrary to them) has ben going on for CENTURIES.

Yes so what you are implying is that he is doubly evil both culturally and naturally?


Quote
That will most likely be bcs you snaped out half of the sentence ... try to read it whole, it helps:

None of it apply on Astarion ...
Based on what exactly are you claiming that rule of aligment for Undead do?
No that had nothing to do with context, all i am saying that sentence doesnt really make any sense. And i honestly don't know what you are asking me. Try using another way to structure the sentence.

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Originally Posted by williams85
i am sorry.
I don't really trust that one bit, especially after your history here ...

Originally Posted by williams85
Yes and an undead can become good or be created good even though undead are evil by nature. But they don't stop being undead, so what was your point?
Exactly that.

Originally Posted by williams85
Yes so what you are implying is that he is doubly evil both culturally and naturally?
Taken that to context with previous part ...
(He dont stop being Vampire, if he become good.)

Just culturally ...
Or at the very least much more that than the other option.

Originally Posted by williams85
Try using another way to structure the sentence.
Fact 1:
Here is list of rules that aply on Vampires ...

Fact 2:
None of them aply to Astarion ...

Fact 3:
There is another rule, saying that Vampires are allways evil.

My claim:
Based on that they ignored so many other rules, i presume rule from Fact 3 is ignored aswell.

Your claim:
I presume rule from Fact 3 is followed.

My question:
Based on what?


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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(Rare) Exceptions to a rule do not unmake or negate the rule. At least speaking for myself, when I speak of things in the sense of a rule, it is implied that there can be exceptions to that rule. It is rather tiresome to have to keep repeating this every time I post about a rule-like thing and that's why I don't do it, expecting people will have the common sense to understand this.

As for BG3 companions, again this is something I have brought up before, but if every one of the companions is some very rare and special *exception* to the rules (i.e. an exceptional githyanki/vampire/priestess of Shar/person who made a pact with a devil/werewolf, etc.), it becomes a silly, ridiculous, lame, pathetic joke.

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Oh, Niara is exactly right, there are non-evil undead ghosts and in fact they are right there in BG I ... I forgot about the Firewine Bridge Knights and the Ulcaster Ghost! All of those are Lawful Neutral. Ulcaster even wears a Robe of the Neutral Archmage, as it turns out.

I also agree that over-using a gimmick where nearly every character is "exceptional" can be detrimental to the story. I like it better when they sneak in little differences such as innate abilities.

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