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if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
i get a physical form that gives me various resistances,
but then d&d comes in and tries to pin a class on this,
there is no class for this, its a monster class, the mind-flayer did not go through training school,
they give you x amount of hitdice, that's it.

with that much making sense,

why can't i just roll up a human, with no class. why do you have to railroad me into believing that i need a past profession or training to excel or exceed in a fantasy simulation..
the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes,

its kind of stupid really.
id like to see a class system more like oblivion elder scrolls 4, where there is no real class, its just a name, you get a series of stats and abilities that define your character,

on your end, in your computer environment, you can create any unit to have any ability or stat that you want. they can be infinitely powerful, it doesn't have to follow any kind of class rule system.
then you introduce class systems, you do nothing but NERF the player with that. while the monster npcs don't have to follow that rule, its kind of annoying.
every character essentially wants to be good at everything. lets face it that's a fact.

a better d&d system than classes, is you have a point-based buy system. you want to be proficient in light armor , then that costs 1 point, then you want to be proficient in medium armor 1 pt more,
then you want a basic array of weapons simple weapons 1 pt more again, you want to have access to x spells, that costs points,
then your total of stats and abilities that you bought with the point buy system, reflects what kind of character you are.

in d&d say im playing a cleric im a big healer right, but i go through this dungeon, never use 1 heal spell, and i kill 50 goblins with my mace, and boom im level 2, now im a better healer than previously !!
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?

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Won't deny it D&D might come with it's own set of limitations but I think that's the entire idea. For each class to face the exact same situation differently depending on their ressources + their second class eventually. It's an old system but it works so I would rather say there's a space for everything in this world.

From meta-gaming perspective I ( personally) prefer class systems cause otherwise you end up with a couple " best skills" you will be actually using + you can get the answer to potentially everything as a backup on anyone ( I'm specifically thinking about DOS:2 cause I think that's the most "classless" game I played).

Meanwhile the class system from this same perspective will make you grab as many represantatives of the " best class" as you can while still having other classes to cover the shortcomings. They will eventually end up having to deal with some situation themselves in a " non meta way".

I mean that from pure combat perspective cause it's true from roleplay side( and that's what you're hinting at in your post) it's actually extremely strange lol.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
on your end, in your computer environment, you can create any unit to have any ability or stat that you want. they can be infinitely powerful, it doesn't have to follow any kind of class rule system.
then you introduce class systems, you do nothing but NERF the player with that. while the monster npcs don't have to follow that rule, its kind of annoying.
That's the whole point of a class-based system. Classes are specialists where each person has specialized skills in exchange for giving up broad power. You need a well rounded party full of people in different classes in order to achieve greatness. Apes together strong.

Also, mechanically, it makes things so much easier to focus into one (or 2 or 3) classes, instead of having access to every single ability.

Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes
[...]
in d&d say im playing a cleric im a big healer right, but i go through this dungeon, never use 1 heal spell, and i kill 50 goblins with my mace, and boom im level 2, now im a better healer than previously !!
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?
While not implemented in BG3 yet, D&D does allow multi-classing (as an optional, but incredibly commonly used, rule). As long as you have the minimum stats for the required class (e.g., Str or Dex for fighters, Int for wizards, Wis for Clerics), you can pick a new class to level up in each level.

In your example, your level 1 cleric could multiclass into fighter for level 2 to represent focusing more on the martial side of things, and thus they'd have 1 level in both classes.

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Limiting what your character can do is the very point of classes - that's because, unlike Oblivion where you play by yourself, you are meant to play with a party. One of ways to encourage teamplay is to give various teammembers different elements that they need to combine to succeed. As such holy trinity was born (tank, DPS, healer) and D&D works like that. By choosing class, you choose what set of skills you want tyour character to have and you fill missing pieces with teammates.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
every character essentially wants to be good at everything. lets face it that's a fact.

While considering that as a fact can be discussed I can understand the sentiment that we humans fundamentally want to be good at whatever we do. On the other hand, part of being who we are, is understanding and accepting the fact that we are not. Some have talent for singing, others dancing, some for team player sports, others solving mathematical problems by their own. By discovering our strengths and weaknesses in skills, we define ourselves and often find more enjoyment in pushing ourselves in areas where we lack than easily succeed in areas we don't.

Sure, there are always some that have the ultimate power fantasy of being able to solve every problem by themselves. The true solo journey, the Hero. But DnD and its class system is more about the group than the individual. No single character is supposed to be able to excel in everything but instead complement the party. The rogue disarm traps and pick locks, the cleric heals and buffs, the fighter takes the brunt of the attack and the caster support the fighter by taking down enemies from a far before they become overwhelming.

That said, the concept does translate poorly to a single player campaign where you are dependent on suboptimal npc's in your party, but then again, removing either the class system or the dice and you have really crippled your DnD game(which BG3 is) beyond recognition.

Also, as stated by Virion, in a system where a character can do everything, you severely cut down on replayability. Very soon there will be a strong consensus among the community on which abilities/skills are the best/needed and why play the game a second time when we will just make the same character again? And where's the allure in roleplaying different characters when they are all the same?

Each to their own, nothing wrong with liking the character system in games like elder scrolls or DoS, but if your suggestion here is to remove the classes I strongly disagree.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
i get a physical form that gives me various resistances,
but then d&d comes in and tries to pin a class on this,
there is no class for this, its a monster class, the mind-flayer did not go through training school,

Class and race are two different things. Mindflayers can have class levels, especially if they're player characters. A mindflayer with a few monk levels is a mindflayer who has trained specifically to be more effective in melee, and better at incapacitating their foes for that tasty brain-nomming (stunning strike, anyone?). The mindflayer with class levels is intrinsically more powerful and dangerous than the mindflayer without class levels. Monsters do, in fact, play by the same rules, more or less; they generally don't have formal class levels, however, and are universally much more scary and dangerous when they do.

The others have covered most of the points in the original post, and I don't need to go over them too much, but as to the question of needing to be exceptional... It's because you do; by definition, you need to be someone who is, or has the capacity to be, exceptional in some way, compared to most others. Choosing a class is illustrating the way in which you are exceptional compared to most others. It is a premise that you are above average; the class system is just asking you how you are.

IIf you want to take your first level in commoner, and get nothing but a hit die increase, a Dm would probably let you; you'd have no abilities, no skills, and no proficiencies, and if you wanted to gain them, you'd need to train them, and it would take time; time that you'd spend learning the basic proficiency and function of things to be able to use them at a reasonable competency, while others are improving their existing skills and growing stronger. Picking a starting class is the assumption that you've spent a certain amount of time off-camera gaining the basics of a few skills prior to this point in your life. You can choose not to have any starting kit at all, but you are only nerfing yourself if you do so.

Some small extra notes:

Quote
The problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes

No, it doesn't. There we go. Now that that's solved - if that was 'the problem' you had, I take it you have no problem with it now, then? Great.


Quote
every character essentially wants to be good at everything. lets face it that's a fact.

No, it's not, and no they don't. It might be true for you, and for every character you personally create (and boy does that sound boring, but you do you), but you are not everyone. I have to disagree, just very mildly on one small detail, with PrivateRacoon here - Whether it's factual or not can't really be discussed in an intelligible way; it's straight up factually untrue. Not every character wants to be good at everything.

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Not having classes is fine for certain kind of games mostly single-player, but in D&D it presents a commitment to a certain field of study. You can't just dabble in magic and expect to be as powerful as a mage who committed his entire life to mastering the art. Same with other fields.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
i get a physical form that gives me various resistances,
but then d&d comes in and tries to pin a class on this,
there is no class for this, its a monster class, the mind-flayer did not go through training school,
they give you x amount of hitdice, that's it.

with that much making sense,

why can't i just roll up a human, with no class. why do you have to railroad me into believing that i need a past profession or training to excel or exceed in a fantasy simulation..
the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes,

its kind of stupid really.
id like to see a class system more like oblivion elder scrolls 4, where there is no real class, its just a name, you get a series of stats and abilities that define your character,

on your end, in your computer environment, you can create any unit to have any ability or stat that you want. they can be infinitely powerful, it doesn't have to follow any kind of class rule system.
then you introduce class systems, you do nothing but NERF the player with that. while the monster npcs don't have to follow that rule, its kind of annoying.
every character essentially wants to be good at everything. lets face it that's a fact.

a better d&d system than classes, is you have a point-based buy system. you want to be proficient in light armor , then that costs 1 point, then you want to be proficient in medium armor 1 pt more,
then you want a basic array of weapons simple weapons 1 pt more again, you want to have access to x spells, that costs points,
then your total of stats and abilities that you bought with the point buy system, reflects what kind of character you are.

in d&d say im playing a cleric im a big healer right, but i go through this dungeon, never use 1 heal spell, and i kill 50 goblins with my mace, and boom im level 2, now im a better healer than previously !!
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?


Oh man that way of thinking about classes is precisely why cRPGs are turning to shit. <cry>.

<<...why do you have to railroad me into believing that i need a past profession or training to excel or exceed in a fantasy simulation..>>

ROFL. Or you joking right? Do you understand the underlying concept of a party based RPG? This isnt God of War, Witcher or Elder scrolls.

<<..the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes..>>

Hence the whole point of classes because this is a party base RPG.
Seriously is this for real? Are we at that lowest point now that we need to argue whether or not we need CLASSES in a cRPG D&D game?
Whats next? Why is the setting in a fantasy world and not on EARTH?? Screw rules, why cant we just have parachutes and automatic riffles for everyone??

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 19/05/22 12:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
<<..the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes..>>

Hence the whole point of classes because this is a party base RPG.
Seriously is this for real? Are we at that lowest point now that we need to argue whether or not we need CLASSES in a cRPG D&D game?
That's not even the unique drawback of class system - in classless RPGs you also make important choices during character creation that you are stuck with for the rest of the game. In something like D:OS2 you just continue to put point into buckets you invested early on - otherwise you will end up not doing anything good enough. Have a system with skill trees and it again, heavily encourages to dip into only couple of trees, often making it feel like a light class system.

That is a nature of RPGs and you may like it or dislike it. Creating my character in an RPG is one of my favourite aspects of those games, though it is a very old school approach - researching how the game plays before you start it. That is an issue that Tim Cain highlighted in his GDC talk, though I am not that fond of the game that he made as the result (Outer Worlds). Making players better understand what they pick at the start of the game is a good problem to attempt to solve, but it is also a side effect of one of the most interesting aspects of the game - creating character with strengths and weaknesses.

My general preference: classless system for single character RPGs (fallout, arcanum), class system for team based RPGs.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?
Maybe this is not the game you are looking for then. Unless you imply that everyone should only be playing games that you like, in which case... well, I hope you are not here for that.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
...
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?

Which begs the questions why play D&D at all then? What you're saying is tantamount to walking into a Japanese restaurant and being disappointed that there isn't pizza on the menu.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
My general preference: classless system for single character RPGs (fallout, arcanum), class system for team based RPGs.
^This. So this! This is exactly how I like it as well. smile

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Kinda skimmed so if someone already said this oopsy. Mindflayers and other creatures used to get monster levels to show how strong they were compared to the basic races. This went with several of the races in 5e that are common now but, were actually basic creatures in previous editions. Tieflings & drow off the top of my head are good examples, they wouldn't get a class for several levels to counter how beefy the race was.

class system has always been d&d, off the top of my head world of darkness had a point buy system i think, there was also rift. That's to say were going to by pen and paper which is what d&d is based off of.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Limiting what your character can do is the very point of classes - that's because, unlike Oblivion where you play by yourself, you are meant to play with a party. One of ways to encourage teamplay is to give various teammembers different elements that they need to combine to succeed. As such holy trinity was born (tank, DPS, healer) and D&D works like that. By choosing class, you choose what set of skills you want tyour character to have and you fill missing pieces with teammates.

that's unforgivable nerfing.. i'm playing alone, a single player, in a single-player mode. no one cares about how strongly powerful my pretend character is if its in god-mode or not...

why do i have to play with a party ?? why cant i lone wolf it.. because i'm nerfed. they make you exceptionally weak so you need the help of other weak npcs, then give you the false feeling of overcoming the odds, when you have 4 weaklings together..

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Kinda skimmed so if someone already said this oopsy. Mindflayers and other creatures used to get monster levels to show how strong they were compared to the basic races. This went with several of the races in 5e that are common now but, were actually basic creatures in previous editions. Tieflings & drow off the top of my head are good examples, they wouldn't get a class for several levels to counter how beefy the race was.

class system has always been d&d, off the top of my head world of darkness had a point buy system i think, there was also rift. That's to say were going to by pen and paper which is what d&d is based off of.

classes are archetypes, they aren't the rule of the game.
they create new classes any time they want. why not let me create a new class. exactly like i said. and build my new class with a point-buy system. if you want to play a classic barbarian wizard ranger sorcerer whatever, you should be able to if you want, you should be able to play a custom class if you want.

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Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
...
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?

Which begs the questions why play D&D at all then? What you're saying is tantamount to walking into a Japanese restaurant and being disappointed that there isn't pizza on the menu.

Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if im a mind flayer, a creature class, i get these racial type powers, maybe i get psionics, maybe i can levitate,
i get a physical form that gives me various resistances,
but then d&d comes in and tries to pin a class on this,
there is no class for this, its a monster class, the mind-flayer did not go through training school,
they give you x amount of hitdice, that's it.

with that much making sense,

why can't i just roll up a human, with no class. why do you have to railroad me into believing that i need a past profession or training to excel or exceed in a fantasy simulation..
the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes,

its kind of stupid really.
id like to see a class system more like oblivion elder scrolls 4, where there is no real class, its just a name, you get a series of stats and abilities that define your character,

on your end, in your computer environment, you can create any unit to have any ability or stat that you want. they can be infinitely powerful, it doesn't have to follow any kind of class rule system.
then you introduce class systems, you do nothing but NERF the player with that. while the monster npcs don't have to follow that rule, its kind of annoying.
every character essentially wants to be good at everything. lets face it that's a fact.

a better d&d system than classes, is you have a point-based buy system. you want to be proficient in light armor , then that costs 1 point, then you want to be proficient in medium armor 1 pt more,
then you want a basic array of weapons simple weapons 1 pt more again, you want to have access to x spells, that costs points,
then your total of stats and abilities that you bought with the point buy system, reflects what kind of character you are.

in d&d say im playing a cleric im a big healer right, but i go through this dungeon, never use 1 heal spell, and i kill 50 goblins with my mace, and boom im level 2, now im a better healer than previously !!
i like maybe skyrim better, i use a conjuration spell over and over, then my conjuration skill goes up. simple right ?


Oh man that way of thinking about classes is precisely why cRPGs are turning to shit. <cry>.

<<...why do you have to railroad me into believing that i need a past profession or training to excel or exceed in a fantasy simulation..>>

ROFL. Or you joking right? Do you understand the underlying concept of a party based RPG? This isnt God of War, Witcher or Elder scrolls.

<<..the problem i have with classes, is that once i choose a class, then it takes away the option for all the other classes..>>

Hence the whole point of classes because this is a party base RPG.
Seriously is this for real? Are we at that lowest point now that we need to argue whether or not we need CLASSES in a cRPG D&D game?
Whats next? Why is the setting in a fantasy world and not on EARTH?? Screw rules, why cant we just have parachutes and automatic riffles for everyone??

i'm not FORCED to take party members with me, this is supposed to be semi open semi sandboxish. i can just walk out into the world, and reject the company of every other npc in the game. in which case - i'm playing solo, with zero party members.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
why do i have to play with a party ?? why cant i lone wolf it..
Because it's a party based RPG. If you want single-character action it just might not be the game for you. You ask why you can't solo, I will ask: why only 4 party members when the originals had 6.

That said I am sure lone wolfing will be a thing - it has been in every party based RPG I can think of. One just needs to learn to game the system.

Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
that's unforgivable nerfing.. i'm playing alone, a single player, in a single-player mode. no one cares about how strongly powerful my pretend character is if its in god-mode or not...
Well, I do because I will be playing the same game, in single player with a maximum party allowed, so it is in my best interest for the game to be balanced around that.

Last edited by Wormerine; 19/05/22 06:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
why cant i lone wolf it..

You can. Just use barrels.

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my purpose for submitting opinions, is to speak directly with larian, and let them know my viewpoint on the game and what i would like to see in it.

my discussion towards larian is valid. - have an OPEN MIND...

i'm getting a lot of POMPOUS responses...
you don't need to try and squelch my opinion because you love yours more.
that's not the spirit of a good discussion on a forum.

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if you get 50 class buy points, and you choose, light & medium armor, martial weapons, rage, extra hit-points, and bonus move speed.. , then you can type in "barbarian" if you want in the class-box. or "super-man", or "tough-guy brawler."
or you can choose the default "barbarian" and it gives everything that i said above..

what i'm saying is d&d-based , d&d 6.0 maybe. you have to think outside the box.

on paper.. i'm invincible and immortal - and stats mean nothing. that's the reality of it. i want the game that i play to reflect that.

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