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I mean, good luck. Larian almost certainly isn't going to implement this. Aside from the amount of work it'd require, this thread also shows how unpopular the idea is. Plus, Larian is licensing the rules from WotC - there's likely a limit to how far they can deviate before WotC steps in, and your suggestion is at least close to that line if not over it.

If you want a completely class-less BG3, you'll almost certainly have to rely on modders (or create such a mod yourself).

The closest thing you'll likely get in BG3 is if Larian implements a Lone Wolf mode such that your character simultaneously gains levels in 2 classes, which you then combine with feats (e.g., medium armor master, slasher, extra hp, mobile) for extra customization.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
my purpose for submitting opinions, is to speak directly with larian, and let them know my viewpoint on the game and what i would like to see in it.

my discussion towards larian is valid. - have an OPEN MIND...

i'm getting a lot of POMPOUS responses...
you don't need to try and squelch my opinion because you love yours more.
that's not the spirit of a good discussion on a forum.

So, what you are failing to understand is that the IP, Intellectual Property, isn't owned by Larian. It's owned by WotC/Hasbro. It is based on a game system that dates back before TES or The Witcher, to a system that the original games, BG and BG 2, were based on. Larian isn't free to just throw the ruleset out the window, and make whatever they want. Everything has to go through an approval process, and it's counter productive for WotC/Hasbro to throw their game system under the bus because someone likes a different system better. The rules used to create characters in this game are used because they are intrinsic to the IP. Someone disagreeing with you is not because someone is being pompous, it's because they understand that flying the Dungeons and Dragons banner means they have to stick to that franchise.

When I'm looking for my solostar power fantasy, I actually play games like Skyrim, Fallout et al, or even Horizon Zero Dawn. I have, and will likely be able to here, built characters that could solo party based RPGs. However, that's not what's intended here, and not what the controlling IP, Dungeons and Dragons, is about.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
Originally Posted by fallenj
Kinda skimmed so if someone already said this oopsy. Mindflayers and other creatures used to get monster levels to show how strong they were compared to the basic races. This went with several of the races in 5e that are common now but, were actually basic creatures in previous editions. Tieflings & drow off the top of my head are good examples, they wouldn't get a class for several levels to counter how beefy the race was.

class system has always been d&d, off the top of my head world of darkness had a point buy system i think, there was also rift. That's to say were going to by pen and paper which is what d&d is based off of.

classes are archetypes, they aren't the rule of the game.
they create new classes any time they want. why not let me create a new class. exactly like i said. and build my new class with a point-buy system. if you want to play a classic barbarian wizard ranger sorcerer whatever, you should be able to if you want, you should be able to play a custom class if you want.

I have no clue what your going on about

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
if you get 50 class buy points, and you choose, light & medium armor, martial weapons, rage, extra hit-points, and bonus move speed.. , then you can type in "barbarian" if you want in the class-box. or "super-man", or "tough-guy brawler."
or you can choose the default "barbarian" and it gives everything that i said above..

what i'm saying is d&d-based , d&d 6.0 maybe. you have to think outside the box.

on paper.. i'm invincible and immortal - and stats mean nothing. that's the reality of it. i want the game that i play to reflect that.

What your suggesting is, in principle, not a bad idea. There's something there that could work as a game. But as you said, it would effectively be D&D 6.0, something very different from what we have now. And I don't think it's practical for Larian to try and make that work in the game at this stage. And furthermore even if it were practical, that's not the game they're making in the first place. The point of D&D 5e is to have that class-based system where you rely on other characters in your party to get through encounters. Baldur's Gate 3 is a party-based game. It's certainly going to be possible to solo the game without your party through min-maxing and skill, but the game isn't built around that.

You also keep saying that the class system nerfs the player, but it really doesn't. It's the baseline way the game works. Having classes is no more a nerf than it is nerfing for runners in a footrace to have to follow the assigned track rather than cutting across the field to the finish line. I think that D&D 5e just isn't for you, and the same probably goes for BG3. It's a game made to appeal to those who like party based, class-based roleplaying games. Just like Fallout and Skyrim are made to appeal to those who like single-player, classless roleplaying games. They're different styles of games with different strengths and weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
why do i have to play with a party ?? why cant i lone wolf it..
Because it's a party based RPG. If you want single-character action it just might not be the game for you. You ask why you can't solo, I will ask: why only 4 party members when the originals had 6.

That said I am sure lone wolfing will be a thing - it has been in every party based RPG I can think of. One just needs to learn to game the system.

Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
that's unforgivable nerfing.. i'm playing alone, a single player, in a single-player mode. no one cares about how strongly powerful my pretend character is if its in god-mode or not...
Well, I do because I will be playing the same game, in single player with a maximum party allowed, so it is in my best interest for the game to be balanced around that.
^This. It's Larian's game, licensed from WotC, and they both want to create a D&D game here, which in turn means using D&D rules and mechanics, which in turn means it will be a class-based game.

The OP clearly wants this to NOT be a D&D game (and perhaps be a D:OS game?). Telling Larian (and WotC) to make BG3 NOT a D&D game is remarkable hutzpah.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
you don't need to try and squelch my opinion because you love yours more.

Here we go again. The o'l <well thats just your opinion on this matter...>
Our opinions are IRRELEVANT.
Like it or not this IS a PARTY based game based in a D&D system. Its a FACT. Hence, its also a fact that MANY people here, BG3 players, enjoy these kind of games.

If you want to REFORM the D&D system and party based games in general and DUMP DOWN everything to a point system , well, that's your opinion and I disagree!
Go give feedback on your bright ideas in the Wizards of the Coast (Wotc) forums.

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I think it's fine to prefer other systems over class-based systems, but it is indeed a bit of a pointless complaint in a D&D based game. Personally, I think a really good skills system can be as good or better than class based, but it is hard to define and generally classes are an easier and more proven way of making characters customizable and add some proper reactivity. And in many classes - like Wizard - I think you should pretty much be required to dedicate most of your life to it to become really good.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
my purpose for submitting opinions, is to speak directly with larian, and let them know my viewpoint on the game and what i would like to see in it.

my discussion towards larian is valid. - have an OPEN MIND...

i'm getting a lot of POMPOUS responses...
you don't need to try and squelch my opinion because you love yours more.
that's not the spirit of a good discussion on a forum.

I understand what you are saying in the forum, but calling people responses "pompous" seems a little aggressive. I don't think it's anyone's intent to be seen as if their opinions matter more than yours but do understand that what you are commenting on seems to be based on your own desires for what you want in a game. You compared D&D's class system to Elder Scrolls Oblivion, also ESO has has no class system as well. Keep in mind these are two separate types of games. What you see in Elder Scrolls is not what you may encounter in other RPG's. Every developer has their own vision when it comes to classes. I believe D&D like many RPG's use the traditional class systems where you are limited to your class unless you multiclass. In ESO, you can be a heavy armor mage with a sword and shield. Not so much in other games where a mage is limited to light armor and a staff or wand. At the end, it would just depend on what type of game you like but keep in mind that what you may not like does not make it wrong.

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I used to think class system was inferior. I thought it was stupid, for example, that a person couldn't be good at using swords just because s/he wasn't a cleric.

Then I played some RPGs, including cRPGs, without classes. They're more complicated, and the end result is that you have to really know the system to advance smart. It's like the discussion about 3.5e versus 5e. 3.5e is versatile and if you know the feat trees well, man you can create some interesting characters who are really powerful. But the issue is that you REALLY need to know your stuff. If you don't, you wind up lost and confused and picking feats or skills that really won't help your character or party, and in the end you're replaying the game from scratch because after 3/4ths the way through you realized you didn't level up smart because you didn't understand the system like you do now. But now it's too late because you can't beat the game with your current level up choices.

This was Final Fantasy 8 for me - the first one that popped in my brain but certainly not the only one. I had no idea what I was doing for level ups, so I just picked stuff. Got to the part where you are about to face final chapter(s) and got stuck because my level ups were useless and not thought through well.

With a class system like 5e, however, it guides you more. It makes it so you don't have to be an expert on the rules or level up options to successfully build your character. It lets you focus on the overall picture and story of your character. "I want to be a rogue," as opposed to, "I want to be a...um...rogue with longsword proficiency that can also...um...shoot a bow...um...wait I also have to pick what in order to shoot well?... A feat called Precise shot? I need Point Blank Shot first? But I want my character to be good at shooting now. That sucks. If I'd known that I'd have picked Point Blank at character creation. Wait. Did you say my character sucks at longsword? Why? I didn't build up my Strength and I didn't take Weapon Focus feat OR Longsword proficiency? What feat/ability do I need to make it so I can fight well with a longsword? Wait! I can't take that now for a few more levels?"

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I dunno ...
The worse misstake in Skyrim (compared to Oblivion) for me was Classes removal. :-/

I never liked this "expert in everything" kind of games ... and i fight with strong urge to name my character Mary Sue every time i create new one. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

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In Morrowind and Oblivion using the pre-made classes wasn't recommended by experienced players, as they often overloaded skills using certain attributes, and left others off entirely, or didn't have a good mix between the major and minor skills.

Once I learned the system I always used the custom class creator to pick my specialties and major/minor skills because you could level more effectively. In MW this wasn't such a huge issue, because scaling was not a thing in that game, but it was an issue in OB, where enemies had scaling, and if you consistently had inefficient leveling it was possible to end up with a character that was very under-powered relative to the scaled enemies.

I understand that they wanted to create a more intuitive system in Skyrim, where there was no such thing as "misc" skills which would not increase your level if you raised them, and while this was not a bad idea, it lead primarily to people basically raising every single skill and doing literally every quest line on the one character because the game allowed you to do so, all you had to do was grind a little and you could master magic, or stealth, even if you started out as a bruiser. But, it also led to poor situations where you could grind to level 30 on smithing, enchanting, and alchemy, and then get destroyed the next time you went dungeon crawling because you spent all your time leveling in crafts instead of fighting.

I'm not a big fan of the jack-of-all-trades Dragonborn, and i played that game several times with differently skilled characters, and an alternate start mod. Also, I personally played around with a skill change mod, where you picked major/minor skills that got a small boost at the beginning and leveled faster, while your misc skills leveled much slower, effectively making it like the older games, but not actually restricting your misc skills from contributing to your leveling. I liked it, it was a very good mod.

So I can appreciate the love for a "classless" system, or at least a system that allows you to effectively make your own class by picking from a set of skills and specialties, but asking for such a thing in a D&D game, a system traditionally built using fixed classes, is a foolish undertaking.

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if i'm playing a game, i'm going to play it how I want..
i'm not going to follow the game-designer's principles step-by-step.
i'm going to use mods that let me tweak the rules.
i'm going to have some fun with it.

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You do that.

If you've already decided what is right for you, and find yourself incapable of enjoying anything else that isn't that way, then you do you... but don't be surprised if you find that other games that actually play the way you want to play already, natively, are better suited to your wants than games that are not at all designed like that.

A game without rules is not a game - and if the only way you can have fun with a game is to cheat the rules or remove them in order to make yourself god-of-everything-forever... it's your choice and you're free to modify every game you play to be like that, if that's what makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by Piff
So I can appreciate the love for a "classless" system, or at least a system that allows you to effectively make your own class by picking from a set of skills and specialties, but asking for such a thing in a D&D game, a system traditionally built using fixed classes, is a foolish undertaking.

I don't believe so.
D&d is meant to be played with homebrew and custom rules.
In the first dungeon master's guide it alludes to this, suggesting players play it their way,

I played d&d when that first box set came out, it had about 4 classes in it. It's totally different now.

It started out with 3d6 per stat, now its a point buy system,

in early versions you could be a fighter/magic-user/thief a multi-class character,
then they tossed that out,

they continually keep making addons and compendiums and rules variant systems,

its been evolving,

it's a matter of time before it starts becoming more like what I said.

D&d is good, is one of the better RPG systems out there. I don't treat it like its a religion, I don't believe there is some kind of 'right-way' to play it. I don't believe there is some kind of 'true orthodox' method to d&d.
and I'm not sold on the class system. That is my personal opinion.

That is what this entire post is about actually.

Individuals who respond to this thread can disagree with it. But I am entitled to my opinion and to express that to Larian. You need to respect that above all things; you're not allowed to bully me or bash me on this forum.

You're allowed to create your own forum thread called "greatest ideas ever", and I promise not to say negative things on it.

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People who try and play D&D like it's Skyrim is a well-known category of RPG horror stories.

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Ok. Be nice people!

OP, you are ofc welcome to post your suggestion and feedback here in this forum, that's what it's for. But there is an emphasis on forum. Here all of us are allowed and I would say, even encouraged, to discuss our own and others ideas, whether we agree or disagree and argument why so. That leads to a deeper discussion and also gives Larian an imsy tiny hint if an idea would be welcomed by the larger mass(yes, very tiny because these forums do not speak for the major part of potential customers).
And while I do agree that some of us took the...less diplomatic...approach in our responses, bullying you to silence is hopefully not anyones goal. That said, your idea is a controversial one so ofc it will gain notice among us who feel different about the game.

Now, I do hope that you will forgive us and keep posting your feedback here but if you feel you got undeserved critique, I would like to tip you about the feedback option reachable via Larians launcher. That feedback goes straight to Larian only and can't be read or discussed by anyone else.

Last edited by PrivateRaccoon; 24/05/22 05:55 AM. Reason: grammar
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Just for the sake of clarity and correct information:

Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
It started out with 3d6 per stat, now its a point buy system,

No, the standard rule method is 3d6, or 4d6 drop lowest. Point buy is presented as an alternative, variant rule as a suggestion, if a game table prefers more generally-similar ability scores between all players.

Quote
in early versions you could be a fighter/magic-user/thief a multi-class character,
then they tossed that out,

No, they haven't; in fact it's easier to multi-class than ever, now, and the spread of extra options, class subtypes and feats make it very feasible to create a hybridised and flexible character in almost any way you want, fully within the class system.

==

Following up PrivateRacoon's point, if you don't want other forum members to discuss and give their opinions on your suggestion, you can find the feedback form for Larian directly here.

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Originally Posted by D1spl@yN@me
Originally Posted by Piff
So I can appreciate the love for a "classless" system, or at least a system that allows you to effectively make your own class by picking from a set of skills and specialties, but asking for such a thing in a D&D game, a system traditionally built using fixed classes, is a foolish undertaking.

I don't believe so.
D&d is meant to be played with homebrew and custom rules.
In the first dungeon master's guide it alludes to this, suggesting players play it their way,

I played d&d when that first box set came out, it had about 4 classes in it. It's totally different now.

It started out with 3d6 per stat, now its a point buy system,

in early versions you could be a fighter/magic-user/thief a multi-class character,
then they tossed that out,

they continually keep making addons and compendiums and rules variant systems,

its been evolving,

it's a matter of time before it starts becoming more like what I said.

D&d is good, is one of the better RPG systems out there. I don't treat it like its a religion, I don't believe there is some kind of 'right-way' to play it. I don't believe there is some kind of 'true orthodox' method to d&d.
and I'm not sold on the class system. That is my personal opinion.

That is what this entire post is about actually.

Individuals who respond to this thread can disagree with it. But I am entitled to my opinion and to express that to Larian. You need to respect that above all things; you're not allowed to bully me or bash me on this forum.

You're allowed to create your own forum thread called "greatest ideas ever", and I promise not to say negative things on it.

You don't need to feel attacked as I have not seen anyone in this thread attack you but with all due respect it would seem to be the other way around. You seem to be very aggressive in answering responses you don't like. Like someone said, you are free to do what you want. I will say that expecting everyone to agree with you is wrong. We all have our own opinions and it seems like you have a problem with that. I think most of us here have tried to explain to you why classes are in DnD and why that may work for some. If you don't like classes in an RPG, that's on you but I think it's unfair to expect everyone here to accept that just because you don't like it. Once again, I don't think anyone here is bullying you and sorry if you feel that way.

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
bullying you to silence is hopefully not anyones goal
Lucky one. xD

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The thing is, any game can be played with homebrew, if the player and GM know it well enough. Hell, some are probably easier to homebrew than D&D. If you want to go through the undertaking of making D&D classless, then go for it. It'll be hard, but some people like the challenge. The crux of the matter is that classless systems aren't inherently superior in any way, nor are class-based systems. They each do what they're made for well, and they all have their fans. I can't imagine D&D moving away from a class-based system, since it's so tied into the DNA of the game. If they did try to go classless, then I'd imagine fans would have an outcry. A not unreasonable one either.

Speaking for BG3 specifically, maybe someone will mod it the way you want, but I can't imagine Larian removing the class system themselves. Firstly, because I'm not confident Wizards of the Coast would let them make such a drastic game. Completely removing the class system would probably go too far in changing the system for their liking. Secondly, that is a major change to try and implement this far into the process. A lot of stuff is already tied to classes, like dialogue options for example. Furthermore, they'd have to figure out how to justify certain classes abilities being included at all. Because for a lot of classes, they come with an inherent background lore that ties them into the setting. How would you become a paladin for instance? Or a cleric and learn those healing spells? What about being a monk once that becomes available? Monks are about more than just punching. There's a whole spiritual aspect to them as well. Hell, even being a druid would present difficulty, despite us meeting a circle of druids, since within the lore, it takes time to train, and an implication that you buy into druid faith.

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