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Originally Posted by Ruswarr
So pretty much party face, almost pure support? We'll see ofc but it does seem a little hard to fit into a party of four.

It's actually quite the opposite. Bards have a spell list that can fill any gaps that a smaller party could have. No cleric to keep you alive? Bard can learn Healing Word, Cure Wounds and Aid... No wizard to help control the battlefield? Bards can learn Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Hideous Laughter... Need someone to help with AoE damage? Thunderclap, Shatter and Cloud of Daggers are on bards spell list. Their spell list is second only to wizards in terms of versatility.

The main limitation to Bard's adaptability is that they are spontaneous casters, so choosing spells at level ups requires some consideration. In addition they don't always get the best support/AoE/buff/debuff spell of each level (Haste and Fireball on level 3 or Bless on level 1 are missing f.e.), but they get enough to be more than competent in multiple roles. And at later levels they can fill those gaps, thanks to magical secret. Other of Bard's weakness is being MAD (depending on a lot of attributes). Bards don't get good combat cantrips so, unless you multiclass with Warlock for Eldricht Blast, they need Dexterity or Strength to be able to fight with weapons effectively.

One thing to mention as well that in PHB Valor Bards were almost certainly the best gish, so as long as Larian doesn't add Blade Singer or Hexblade, it's probably the strongest pick for full casting frontliner (alongside Clerics ofc).

You want to build a team of only full spellcasters? Valor Bard and Shadowheart on frontline with Wyll and Gale behind. Or do you fancy having Kanerah, Lae'zel and Astarion in your party? Lore Bard would probably be one of the better choices for spellcaster in this case.

TLDR. Bard can do anything and anyone.

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The possibility of Bard being implemented means we're likely finally going to get a definitive answer on exactly what Larian plans to do with reactions. A lot is at stake here.

Originally Posted by JandK
Don't know if it's the best thread to ask... but what's the main appeal/features of Bards in D&D?

Speaking as someone that is currently playing a Valor Bard in tabletop...

You take Bard for their sheer versatility. They won't top the damage charts, but they are damn good at enabling everyone else to do whatever they need to do, and are extremely good at skill checks themselves, especially of the charisma-based variety. When I was playing BG3 using the Bard mod, pretty much every persuasion check only needed a 3 or higher to pass. They are also full spellcasters, though they don't have very many direct offense spells compared to the other casters. They do have almost every utility-based and mind-based spell under the sun, though. For one, they're the only class in the game with natural access to Speak With Dead, Speak With Animals, and Speak With Plants, along with all of the language-related spells.

All Bards share 1 main feature, Bardic Inspiration. As a bonus action, Bards can give a Bardic Inspiration die to a party member, who can then use it to increase an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw result by 1d6 (which increases by a further d2 every few levels). This stacks with stuff like Guidance too. Note that in most cases, the Bard cannot use the Bardic Inspiration die to influence their own rolls. The amount of bardic inspiration die that a Bard can give before needing to long rest is based on their Charisma modifier (although they get restored on a short rest at level 5, which makes them extremely spammable afterwards). This mechanic is PRECISELY why there needs to be a proper reaction system, as you can only use it for one effect before the die disappears.

The Bard subclasses generally add additional ways to use the Bardic Inspiration die. So let's look at the features of the two subclasses we're most likely to get, Lore and Valor.

College of Lore: The subclass for Bards that want to focus more on the utility/casting side of the class, as well as hindering enemies.
+ Ability to use Cutting Words as a reaction, which lets them use their Bardic Inspiration to instead lower an enemy's attack roll or ability check result. Enemies cannot even roll a saving throw to resist this.
+ At level 6, Lore Bards can learn 2 spells of any class, as long as they are capable of casting them with an appropriate spell slot.
(Note that all Bards are able to do this at level 10 as well, Lore Bards just get an additional 2 spells much earlier. This can also lead to things like Bards learning what are normally Ranger and Paladin exclusive spells far earlier than they do, though it's unlikely BG3 may take this into consideration based on what the level cap is, because there'd be no reason to implement spells like Destructive Wave if a Paladin can't get to level 17 to begin with.)
+ At level 14, Lore Bards can use a Bardic Inspiration die for their own ability checks.

College of Valor: The subclass for Bards that want to focus on combat and further supporting party members.
+ Bonus proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons
+ Bardic Inspiration is upgraded to Combat Inspiration, which allows a character to additionally roll the Bardic Inspiration die towards weapon damage rolls or AC against an incoming attack.
+ At level 6, Valor Bards gain the ability to Extra Attack.
+ At level 14, Valor Bards gain the ability to use a weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a Bard spell as their main action.

So basically, I'd argue that Bard might actually be the best class for a main character to have in a game like BG3, if your primary goal is to see as many dialogue options and pass as many skill checks as you can, and they absolutely aren't bad at combat at all.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 30/06/22 10:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Elebhra
Bard can do anything and anyone.

And anyone😂😂😂

I see what you did.

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Not that it is likely to be of much relevance in 5e but I used to play a Bard on a persistent world which used the NWN module (Nordock was the name of the server, on the off chance anyone here used to play there-it was bloody fantastic). The parties I grouped with absolutely loved having my Bard along because she buffed them ridiculously well. No idea if that is still an option in 5e but I loved playing a sort of backseat character who was actually very integral to the party's success.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Elebhra
Bard can do anything and anyone.

And anyone😂😂😂

I see what you did.

I wanted to write "Bard can do anything a small party might need", but couldn't help myself.

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Elebhra, Saito Hikari, that actually sounds more interesting than I thought. Thanks for the explanations!

And yes, let's hope for reactions rework. This is something we direly need to see early enough before the release.

Last edited by Ruswarr; 30/06/22 10:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Are you kidding me?
It WILL BE on my birthday. laugh laugh laugh
Imagine Swen whish you a happy birthday live !
I would be lying if I said it didn't even occur to me. laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

---

Hope we get something else than just Bard ...
I dunno why, but this particular class kinda never resonated with me. :-/ And most of their incarnations (in series, movies, games and books) i learned to hate quite fast ...
Volo is oddly enough rare exception so far. O_o
But not Alfira ... the only reason i would ever recruit her would be to kill her, ressurect her and then kill her again.

I hope for some Hotbar updates ... especialy for option to make it BIG! And then even bigger. laugh
Maybe some update about reactions ...
Hopefully some new spells. ^_^

Keep hopes low is the key. :3

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 30/06/22 10:27 PM.

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Well patch notes teaser mentions Stinking Cloud fix. So to me it definitely confirms level 5, since it’s level 3 spell.

Hope overdrive.

Last edited by Elebhra; 30/06/22 10:33 PM.
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Even if they changed to name to DOS3...NOBODY here will be complaining lol. At this point 90% of BG1/BG2 (35 to 45+ year old grumpies lol) fans have moved on.
I'm staying hoping Larian pulls a hat out of their rabbit.
I was 18 when BG2 came out...that game is so dear to me wink I understand BG3 must <<evolve>> yet, for me the path taken feels flimsy as hell...the game doesn't know what it wants to be.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 01/07/22 12:05 AM.
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My 3 biggest hopes for this:

1) Level 5
2) Reactions how they should be
3) Expertise for Classes that have them and the Skilled feat
4) A new Companion - frankly, after we have had to endure them for so long in EA, if I every play this game I am going to kill each and every one of those starting 5 the moment I see them.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Ruswarr
Don't know if it's the best thread to ask... but what's the main appeal/features of Bards in D&D?

I second this question.

I've always felt weird about the bard. While everyone else is fighting, they're singing?

I used to like bards in the earlier versions of D&D ( they were not in the original game ). Mainly they are Jack-of-all-trades. Can fight a bit, can cast a bit, and have versatile skills.

There is a mod that adds the 5e bard to EA. It seems to play as a mix of caster and skill monkey ( particularly with college of lore ), but has some martial capacity.

Traditional bard song has disappeared. Now you have can "inspire" a single creature as a bonus action, improve short rests by singing the party a cheery song and buff saves for fear and charm within 30 feet as an action. The save buff is as close to the old bard-song concept as it gets.

Certainly makes a good face-character in single-player, with the focus on skills and high charisma, and would be an easy choice in a party of 6; but maybe not with only 4?

dnd5e feels like a simplified (and nerfed version of earlier dnd for me). maybe it's more suitable for pnp idk. probably seeing myself going back to pathfinder after i'm done with bg3.

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I really hope, it's bard - together with a reworked reaction system and maybe level 5.


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Hope we get to try out Karlach. We already got barbarians, and it would be nice to try out a new companion. But at the end of the day, I'll take what I can get.


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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I think I'll just wait for Niara's report on it smile More entertaining for me. (if she's doing it and willing to share her thoughts of course, don't want to seem entitled)

I'm intending to give it a watch and do my usual synopsis for those who don't have the time/desire to watch! I'll do my best. I wonder whether I should tone down or dial up my vicious mockery ^.~

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I think I'll just wait for Niara's report on it smile More entertaining for me. (if she's doing it and willing to share her thoughts of course, don't want to seem entitled)

I'm intending to give it a watch and do my usual synopsis for those who don't have the time/desire to watch! I'll do my best. I wonder whether I should tone down or dial up my vicious mockery ^.~

Oh Niara, you beaut! And you already know the answer :P

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Originally Posted by Niara
I wonder whether I should tone down or dial up my vicious mockery ^.~

How about... High concept, maximum hijinks and higher production values, with a lot of laughter in the scrum? 😋

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I think I'll just wait for Niara's report on it smile More entertaining for me. (if she's doing it and willing to share her thoughts of course, don't want to seem entitled)

I'm intending to give it a watch and do my usual synopsis for those who don't have the time/desire to watch! I'll do my best. I wonder whether I should tone down or dial up my vicious mockery ^.~

Allow me to +1 the others saying they will be waiting for your write-up Niara. Honestly I wouldn't tone it down OR dial it up. I find it a decent level of both praise and criticism.

Happy B-Day a bit early to RagnarokCzD.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Even if they changed to name to DOS3...NOBODY here will be complaining lol. At this point 90% of BG1/BG2 (35 to 45+ year old grumpies lol) fans have moved on.
I'm staying hoping Larian pulls a hat out of their rabbit.

The third time is the dud. Read the maturity and intelligence level of the very special posters on this forum. This game is more woke teen drama than RPG, with EZ mode ruining all the things that brought those 90% here in the first place. They might as well stop calling it D&D.

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I don't want L5 in EA. I want more subclasses for those that have them missing and the missing spells and cantrips that should be available already.

A new class is an obvious and they can make Karlach playable since they have her model and they added Barbarian to the game.

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more woke teen drama than RPG
You mean WotR, surely?

It's nice to finally have some news, it's been a very quiet month after a (far too early) tease. The bards kinda depend on the reaction system working by-the-books for them to properly function, so I assume, hope, freaking pray that they will finally implement it properly. Maybe even add Ready Action and Dodge? I am still kinda torn on whether or not Dodge should be around, though - it basically allows a high AC frontliner to almost never get hit while the rest of the party does damage, so it's not a particularly well thought-through tactical tool. It would make more sense if it didn't apply if you have a shield/heavy armor equipped, since your AC is, in practice, you being armored up to your ears. We'll see.

Last edited by Brainer; 01/07/22 05:15 AM.
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