Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Various rantings about BD & suggestions for DD2

I think Larian Stuidos have done a good job for BD. The game premise is, well, unqiue, when you compare it to almost every other RPGs out there. The music is terrific (though I wish there are more new tracks. DD boasted of 44 tracks, and BD has less, considering some music re-using) and the graphics, well, is bearable.

However, there are some issues that I wish to raise up...

1) The designers have obiviously put in heart and effort to make the game more than 'hack and slash', but unfortunately hack and slash is still the optimal solution to go. Consider...

a) Putting the first Battlefield Key in one of the spider's cage. The strange thing is the 'right way' seems to be jamming the cogwheel with the iron bar so you can avoid the spiders. But an even better way is to kill the spiders (for the XP!) and get the Battlefield Key so you can go for even more H&S action! If I were not too slow in jamming the cogwheel, I never would have found out, and trust me, getting to Battlefield early is a great boon.

b) A neat diversion from the usual H&S action is the Metal Gear Solid-style sneaking on one level of the citadel. But many players have pointed out - it is frustrating, and it is even better in the long run to kill all the patrols!! You get experience, you get the freedom to roam the corridors at will and you may get some cool items!

2. The Battlefields are cool concept, but sadly lacking. THe random dungeon generation code needs some tweaking - not the map-generation, but rooms-generation. The dungeons are boring. Oh, for a hack and slash portion of the game, it doesn't seem to matter, but it does. Diablo mostly features random dungeons generation, and it is really varied. You get shrines, mana pools, fountains, champion packs and objects related to the theme of the dungeon.

The random dungeons in BD lacks theme. Please, if there ever is going to be a Battlefield in DD2, please make it more exciting and varied. And the monsters...if Act I mainly consists of skeletons, perhaps we shall fight less of those in the Act I Battlefields?

3. The One-Handed with Shield, and One-Handed Weapon skill seperation. This may be one dead horse being pounded to death, but this seperation is one of the most insane, INSANE concept I have ever heard off. No other RPGs I know (computer or pen and paper) practise this.

4. Lack of information does not make a game challenging. Some games, such as FF, thinks to by leaving out information about spells and etc and let the players find out by trial and error makes the game 'challenging'. I don't agree. Sure, the manual describes the spells. But what about Alchemly and Charms?

There are a lot more I could raise up -- improving the AI of the 'other' party member so that they don't have to be babysitted all the time.

In the end, at any rate, great game still!

Don't forget the system requirements for the game. The graphics are good considering this game can run on an old sys.


What if you're not alone in the universe? What if other people think unlike you? What if many members here bought Beyond Divinity because it was NOT hack and slash?


Metal Gear Solid is a pitful excuse for a sneaker.


Oh, interesting to know. I though the dungeons in Diablo were all the same. (sarcasm) Wow a fountain if mana! IT CHANGES COMPLETELY THE DUNGEON! YAAAY!(sarcasm off). Non sequitur argument: first you whine about the lack of hack and slash, then you say that there's TOO MUCH hack and slash. Are you one of those window shoppers who can't decide what they want?


You were comparing the game to diablo so I'll use your comparison. When I played Diablo, I thought that the game has only two monsters: skeletons and burning skeletons. Ah, and some bosses. Diablo 2 had those annoying little red munchkins. Bad comparison again.


Well, it meas you shall start playing more RPGs. Actually I am not surprised since you want Hack and Slash, which is a pitful excuse for RPGs (diablo and such). I give you an example: in Baldur's Gate 2, there's "Sword and Shield" skill and "One Weapon" skill.


Comparing to FF, but FF isn't the only game. Take Wizardry or Might and Magic: when you mix a potion, it's never identified and you have to test it yourself.


Spare me.

Oh, Rana, finding out about alchemy and charms was a great deal of fun for me - it was so exciting: First I started to hunt for flasks in good ol' Div manner (grmpf) - then I thought: Ok, stand in a mushroom patch and try it with your alchemy char (double grmpf) and then I came upon the idea to use right click on those "weeds". Ouch, why are not all active? Etc. it was real fun for me - I WANTED to find it out => and then the pride.
Same for charms - I reloaded countless times to find out their values/effects. (They had been different in the earlier versions).

I can't say it's challenging - but I am the kind of gamer, who likes to experiment and spent endless time in this. This approach was exactly the way how I like to play my chars => inquisitive. (And this is probably the cause, why I won't play multiplayer. Guess, I'd drive any companion to sheer madness, if she/he has to wait for me all the time).
Kiya

@DEATHATTHEDOOR:
Hmm.. are you having a bad day today? Because now I've read two *extremely* aggressive posts from you today where you in a rude and insulting way yell at people for speaking out their opinion. Are you really sure you want to post these things because, quite frankly, you're behaving like an [nocando]...

- Telemachos

PS: Don't even bother to start flaming me (as I have a feeling you will) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't care anyway and won't answer you. There are a lot much more interesting things to discuss on these forums anyway - like the game?!?

I couldn't agree with you more. Seems everytime he replys he does it with venom. Really makes you want to give an opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

I am in a good mood and I am aware of everything you said.


I won't. You spoke your opinion and I agree with it.
Now I am just drinking tea and checking some spells for Arcanum that's why I passed by.

EDIT: I never yell at peole who speak their opinion. I yell at people who impose their opinion.

That may be true, but I don't think that stops it from being a great game. I don't like sneaker games (like Splinter Cell for example), because I find them boring. MGS is more action oriented... Fast paced sneak if you will. Not realistic at all, but then again, it's only a game...

Sorry, a bit off-topic there...

Er, sorry Death, I'll have to correct you on this since you seem to have no clue what you're on about.
Diablo 1 had about 10 diferent monsters. The fallen, goatmen, skeletons, zombies, those annoying-as-hell shadow monsters, teleporting magi, succibi, hell knights, demons and lets not forget the wonderful acid-spitting dogs of doom!

D2: Even in act 1 there are the fallen (muchkins) goatmen, (again) corrupted rogues, big hairy yeti mothers, floating vampire monsters and the wonderful lightning-spitting demons. To name but a few. My favourate act, apart from Andariel. (biatch)

IMO the battlefields are dull, I've seen a max of 3-4 different types of monster in each one (act 1 and 2 BF's so far) and the dungeons are a tad large. Fun for a while though. Good relief from the game. Also you end up not really giving a sh*t if you do the quests or not. Can be a good or bad thing.

Final point. In the Act 2 BF's, first dungeon there was no boss monster there?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Seemed odd to me.

To me, the initial posting sounds like being written by someone who wants to bring the masses odff D2 fans / buyers to bear.

I mean, if such a mass of people is thinking - and the industry supports them - "H/S is the optimal solution" ... well, then every small developer who doesn't want that should become frightened, and this is how it sounds to me.

These H/S lovers are definitively the ones who have grown up with the mind pattern RPG = H/S . They don't know classics like Ultima, as it seems to me.

As El'Gammon (aka elgi) once wrote, it's this way : The whole RPG genre has been pushed through a narrow canal that was D2, leaving everything else behind. What I mean is in German something like that the whole RPG ganre had to go through the "Nadelöhr" that was defined by Blizzard. Everything else was chopped off - decisions of the publishers which were smelling gold because of the huge masses of followers of the Action-RPG sub-genre - and in the result the whole RPG genre was re-defined. No more virtues, no more humility, no more tales of bards, only H/S.

And what's even more, Monsters are used especially in H/S games as an excuse for collecting eperience points. I don't like that. I want interaction.

Companies relying completely on H/S won't see my money, and even now I'm drifting back to Adventures.

I played Diablo 1 and 2 (at least the first 2 acts. then I just quickly scrolled to see the ending movie). I know in d2 there were more monsters, actually, but mostly Fallen and their rainbow kins. Fallen and Fallen Shaman were dominating.

Oh, great, a wrangling



I ran BD on a 800mhz system (old), and yes, it's runnable, But the game is more playable on higher end spec, without the frame rate plummeting below 20. Now I am running it on a 2.0ghz system.

Arugably, Sacred got better graphics and I got it to run on the 800mhz system. So if you want to compare on a scale, BD's graphics and effects are not as impressive as Sacred. But Sacred's animation is not up to my cuts.



I never did say BD is not about hack and slash. Read my words carefully, and watch out before you stuff an entire horse into my mouth.

The designers have obiviously put in heart and effort to make the game more than 'hack and slash'

BD consists of hack and slash, but the developers did try to make it more than a dungeon roam, but are not successful at that. I have more of Fallout II in mind when I stated that. See, the designer provides way to avoid H&S, but some how end up rewarding H&S acton more than the "unconventional" and "creative" methods to solve quest.



As that is not an objective statement, and something of an entirely of your own personal preference, yeah you are granted that. Anyway, I am not praising MGS at all. I just stating the example. Why the unwarranted Death Ray pointing at me? (Quote from Kill Bill 2 "You...Overeacted!?")



I see what you say as a diverison. So here's what I meant -- The Random Dungeon Generation for the battlefields suck. There are not enough variety. I am using Diablo as a comparison of Random Dungeon Generation. If you don't like D2, well, how about Nethack? I could have pointed this out without using D2 as an example. Whatever it is, my point remains - The random dungeon generator code for the BF is not up to most games' cut.



Diablo I or II has nothing to do with this point. In the context of BD, we are fighting a lot of skeletons in Act I, and are fighting skeletons against in the Act I BF. That's the point. The designer can consider changing the monsters in the BF so that we get a more varied H&S.

I am not comparing the game to Diablo. I am comparing the game's BF and random dungeon generation to BF.


Don't pull wool over my eyes. Baldur's Gate based on D&D system. There are no weapon skills. All classes have a THACO0 rating. If they are using weapons which they are not proeffecient with, they can't even use the weapon at all. Without the shield proeffiency, you cannot use shield at all. Weapon specialisation exists for weapons and gives bonus to the to-hit roll. There's no "Weapon Specialisation when fighting with Shield" and "Weapon Specialisation when fighting without shield".

There are no skills in Baldur's Gate II. There are in NWN because NWN is D20 and based on the D&D 3rd edition rules. And even now there's no weapon skill, only feats to increase the attack rating of weapons. Whether you use a shield or not those feats work.

How do I know all this? I am a certified DM for D&D!


Did M&M and Wizardy teaches you how to mix a potion in the first place?


You are having a bad day, whether you are denying it or not. You are over-reacting. I am just raising certain aspects of Diablo in comparison to BD and you are accusing me of comparing the game with Diablo? You are over-reacting.

I understand your point of view, but strangely I find dragging bottles over mushrooms much more fun (but well...). I don't mind experimenting for rarer potions, but for common tasks I appreciate them laid out in front of me.

Another thing which strikes me is that the charms not longer shows their bonuses while on the merchant screen. Making buying of them a bigger gamble...

True, it's a gamble - but then my secret weapon kicks in => good ol' pen&paper times => a piece of paper, a ruler and jotting down all values in a table <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
You should see my desk... writng down a lot, even in PC games, is part of the fun for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Each to her/his own, DM Rana <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - as Larians changed the effect strongly during the versions, I'm glad, they had no text: this would have been far more difficult to change this in the game. And I prefer the new effects to the old ones.

I must say I agree with Kiya. Although my curiosity isn't as deep as hers, I got a big kick out of checking the forum for details on what charms do what, writing it down and then referring to that table when buying charms. I don't like it when games hold my hand and treat me like a moron. BD treats me with respect, and while that can be frustrating at times, simple experimentation is the key to unlocking greater insight into the game's mechanisms, which is ultimately more rewarding than a tutorial that tells me what to do and how to do it.

Arguably, checking the forum for answers on occasion can be equated to a tutorial of sorts, but even so that's far more interactive than something in-game.

Talking with friends, discussing different approaches and incorporating them into my playing style if I choose to is all a big part of the fun I am having with BD, and believe firmly that Larian have been smart to skimp on some details.

As for the forum itself, I haven't felt as much a part of a gaming community as I do here, and that is definitely contributing to my overall enjoyment of BD. So many posters here are smart, rational, FUN people that it is a major pleasure to spend time here. Hell, even the people who don't meet that description are fun, in their own way... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, enough talk, have to do some work now.

Cheers!

Jep that is why they invented forums and printers, I always have my list of charm effects lying on my desk <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Hehe, I could be one of those. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know, every forum for every game you look at has players that are not happy with the game they have purchased. Take Sacred for example, I have been playing the game recently and enjoying it. I bought the game knowing it was h/s with countless respawns, with an arrow pointing the way to the next quest and not having to put your thinking caps on regarding how to find the key to the door (hmm...maybe that's why i'm enjoying it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />) but you still get people moaning on the forum about to much respawn, it should be more like Diablo, the sidequests arn't challenging enough, blah, blah!.

Every game is different, BD is different to Sacred, Sacred is different to Diablo, DD is different to neverwinter and so on. I purchased BD knowing it was going to be unlike the other games I have played, I don't want two games that are identical to one another. I am pretty sure game developers get sick and tired of people wanting their game to be more like this or like that.

BD for me at the moment is a little buggy, but that's the only thing that's bothering me, not the skills, not the voices etc. The only thing I wished for in BD is a little more of DDs music, that's not a criticism just a little bit of wishful thinking as I did love the music themes in DD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Not a very intelligent post, it's just how I feel.

Marie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

"The only thing I wished for in BD is a little more of DDs music"

Is it just me or wasn't there a short map in BD, Act 4 that played one of the main tunes from DD? I remember playing and suddenly stopping up, knowing I had heard that music before. The music in DD is great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

- Telemachos

Hi Rana_Loreus,

I think the biggest problem with the Hack & Slash alternatives is how do you award experience and loot? Experience comes from killing foes. Now how much experience do you get for sneaking past the said foes? And what if the player returns and kills the foe?

I think experience is awarded on a too miniscule level (every kill, every event). Experience should be awarded per episode or quest, with bonus points tallied for extra effort, then the game might be playable as something other than a Hack & Slash. That's just my thought.

Well, that's how some people play pen-and-paper D&D. Experience is awarded at the end of an adventure or at certain more quite "key point". But in a computer game that would take something away from the character building aspect that's crucial for a CRPG to work. Imagine only awarding experience once per act in BD... that would mean you would play an entire act with a fixed skill set and at a fixed level. From a roleplaying perspective this might be interesting but probably hard to get right in a computer game. You could of course split up the game into smaller bits than acts.

- Telemachos

I havn't got that far yet, still in early stages of ActI, that's nice to know though.
Marie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />