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#820913 14/07/22 09:50 AM
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So with the addition of both "expertise" and Gnomes I decided I wanted to do a little test. I picked a Deep Gnome Rogue (+7 on Stealth Check AND Advantage) and moved to the first ennemies of the game with the Imps with Laezel (+1 on Stealth Checks AND Disavatage due to armor) And they have the exact same cone of vision.. I seem to recall in DOS2 the more sneak you had the smaller those cone of vision would become.

Now I know this is not DOS2 but it feels to me that you can be as sneaky as a rogue made for stealth as a clumsy 10 Dex Fighter with Plate Armor.. from what I gathered theyre is no dialogue sneak check as of now.. the only time you "Roll" a sneak check is if you go inside a person's cone of vision passed a certain distance otherwise if your too close they just spot you instantly with no rolls. Or When you try and remain hidden with an attack from stealth.

As of right now its more efficient to sneak around to either use invisibility...use something that removes vision like a Fog Clould in wich case anyone can sneak..or just find a path around via stuff like either jump or misty step.

The Stealth skill feels completely pointless as of now and I find ridiculous I would much rather invest on skills like knowledge skills or perception/insight for a rogue then bother with the sneak skill since those can be used to succeed at pretty important passive checks.

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I agree with you.

The stealth skill is mostly useless because of a few things imo :
- The lack of hearing radius arround ennemies
- Sometimes, the inconsistency of the vision cone
- The possibility to force turn based that makes stealth very easy to pointless.

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I just use a gith hand to scout as its permantly invis, another reason to not need stealth unless you want to get a backstab in after a fight starts keeping your dtealthwd characters out of combat

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I never thought about it that way. It’s a good point well made.

Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
just find a path around via stuff like either jump or misty step.
It’s really weird that you can jump over sight cones. It maked me feel like enemies see with their feet, kind of like Toph for Avatar the Last Airbender. (Except she can see at long range in all directions).

Last edited by Flooter; 14/07/22 10:32 AM.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The stealth skill is mostly useless because of a few things imo :
- The lack of hearing radius arround ennemies
- Sometimes, the inconsistency of the vision cone
- The possibility to force turn based that makes stealth very easy to pointless.

Exactly. In BG3, there is no point making a Stealthy character. A high-Dexterity character with Proficiency and Expertise in Stealth is not better at Stealth than an 8-Dexterity warrior with no Proficiency and a noisy armour (those giving Disadvantage on Stealth). As the Stealth system currently stands, Larian has completely turned Stealth from a character skill to a player skill.

A corollary of this is that, contrary to what a loading screen might claim, no, there is no need for a balanced party. You can pick whoever you want, build your party however you want, and you will still be able to achieve every infiltration and heist you want.

Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
just find a path around via stuff like either jump or misty step.
It’s really weird that you can jump over sight cones. It maked me feel like enemies see with their feet, kind of like Toph for Avatar the Last Airbender. (Except she can see at long range in all directions).

Oh. I'm sad that I've never tried jumping over vision cones. If this confirmed however, I wouldn't exactly be surprised. There are a many ways in which the game fails to distinguish between 2D and 3D reasoning.


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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Oh. I'm sad that I've never tried jumping over vision cones. If this confirmed however, I wouldn't exactly be surprised. There are a many ways in which the game fails to distinguish between 2D and 3D reasoning.

Unless this has changed since last time I did it the way it work seem to be similar to ground effects like fire/acid. They have no verticality so if you can jump from a side of the cone of vision your outside of theyre vision to another without landing in the red zone you bypass the stealth check..this might work diffrent if you are closer.. again stealth is in a weird state. Wich may not be an issue if this game has dialogue Stealth checks like Pathfinder or Pillars of Eternity but so far I have only seen sleight of hands and no Stealth in dialogues.

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Stealth does need a big update.

If there is ANYTHING in combat near you, you should just immediately go into combat mode, regardless of the current state your on (invisible, stealthed, ect). Then, if you are like 90m away from everything, you can just end combat and go back to real time mode.

Then, you should have to roll a stealth check every full combat round (after the lowest initiative). If you are within 20m of any stealth/invisible target, you have to break the Stealth DC roll. Then, within the same initiative, if the Cone of Vision passes over a stealth target, you receive another chance to do a Stealth DC roll check, but with some type of bonus (like +5 or something) as long as you can see in the lighting (ie hidden in the shadows, you need either a torch, Dark Vision, or some other light enhancing ability).

This would resolve all issues with Stealth along with giving some unique situational bonuses like, Cone of Silence makes all Stealth DC checks outside the Cone of Vision auto fail, giving a Perception roll bonus if you have better vision or a light source near the Stealth target and within the Cone of Vision, ect.

This is, like, so so easy to understand and to program, too. It's just simple states that you check against.

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+1

I do not feel even remotely inspired to take Stealth as proficiency as it is highly unreliable and I cannot find a use for it anywhere.


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We've talked about this a lot. There should be hearing radius besides sight cones, and you should not be able to see the sight cones. If you are in Hearing radius but not Sight cone, Stealth versus Passive Perception with Stealth at advantage. If in Sight and Hearing, but you are in shadows or darkness, Stealth without advantage. If not in darkness, Perception gets advantage.

Auto-trigger turn based might be tricky. If I'm trying to stealth everyone at once past someone, it should be my choice if I want to take the time to Turn Base it.

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Originally Posted by Zyllos
Stealth does need a big update.

If there is ANYTHING in combat near you, you should just immediately go into combat mode, regardless of the current state your on (invisible, stealthed, ect).
Yep, we pointed this out since the EA started but I don't think we've ever got anything resembling an acknowledgement.

Admittedly it's not an area where I personally focused too much attention or effort, because at some point you have to pick your battles (and we also had stuff like "Healing food", "Backstab advantage", "elevation advantage" etc. at the time).

One common objection was "What if my co-op partner enters in a battle I don't want to participate to and I'm just in his proximity?" at which my personal take would be "Well, tough luck, sucker. Go around with better people next time".
If I was walking down a street with a friend and the moron suddenly started swinging haymakers to random pedestrians, you can bet your sorry ass I would end up involved even if I wasn't planning to.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
[quote=Zyllos]Stealth does need a big update.
...

One common objection was "What if my co-op partner enters in a battle I don't want to participate to and I'm just in his proximity?" at which my personal take would be "Well, tough luck, sucker. Go around with better people next time".
If I was walking down a street with a friend and the moron suddenly started swinging haymakers to random pedestrians, you can bet your sorry ass I would end up involved even if I wasn't planning to.

Agreed. And you can still perform this by moving away from the combat (like 60m or 90m, whatever the range should be that you can just leave turn mode and go real time mode) on your initiative and just go about your day.

Last edited by Zyllos; 14/07/22 09:21 PM.
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The way I want stealth to be fixed would be the better you are at it the easier it is to get passed people. I don't mind the cone of vision I just hate that its the same for everyone reguardless of how high your stealth is. I honestly don't want hearing radius added in npcs already use theyre spider sense to find you even tho you pick pocketed them while in a fog cloud.. I don't need an extra mechanic to make playing a rogue even more useless then it already is.

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The hearing radius should be an area where the NPC makes a perception check to notice you, at least in my view of its implementation. With appropriate disadvantage on the perception check if you're in a fog cloud (something something peripheral vision) and disadvantage on your stealth check if you're in heavy armor.

It is NOT another region where the NPC automatically detects you when you enter it, regardless of your stealth skill

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There is one place that stealth is super helpful, and that is sniping. Your deep gnome can probably kill entire encounters without ever being spotted simply by shooting, pushing the stealth check, re-stealthiness, moving to the next spot. Repeat ad nauseum.

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Originally Posted by Nebuul
There is one place that stealth is super helpful, and that is sniping. Your deep gnome can probably kill entire encounters without ever being spotted simply by shooting, pushing the stealth check, re-stealthiness, moving to the next spot. Repeat ad nauseum.

yea, done this too. hilarious.

also, not to forget pickpocketing. hide, sucessfully pickpocket, leave.
Aaaand....they come to you instantly to accuse you of theft. Another use for stealth gone...btw, i also had that when invisible. The NPCs came up to another party member instantly. The only difference was that there was no need for a check. still. i parked my other chars far away and they still come running to you...

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Originally Posted by Nebuul
There is one place that stealth is super helpful, and that is sniping. Your deep gnome can probably kill entire encounters without ever being spotted simply by shooting, pushing the stealth check, re-stealthiness, moving to the next spot. Repeat ad nauseum.
I don't think anyone is questioning if the current implementation of stealth can be powerful... The issue is that it's some gimmicky meta-gaming that exploits a broken implementation.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
I don't think anyone is questioning if the current implementation of stealth can be powerful... The issue is that it's some gimmicky meta-gaming that exploits a broken implementation.

Yeah, I'm not advocating for it. I'm just pointing out an example in which your stealth roll actually matters.

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Larian, please, take this suggestion seriously. The current Stealth system is broken.

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Stealth right now is most likely not finished. Besides all the things mentioned, hiding currently is just a DC10 check (never seen it fail on checks above 9 and vice versa) - it never takes enemy perception into account. With expertise added lvl 4 Astarion (18 Dex) has +8 on checks so he has just 1/20 chance to fail.

Last edited by Elebhra; 15/07/22 07:48 PM.
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They think the mini-game of "avoid vision cones" is more fun for stealth than using RPG rules. So much fun, that bending the rules and reality by excluding sound completely from the equation is worth it. It's not.

Why I think BG3 stealth is really bad is that it emphasizes player skill over character skill. And in this case, a trained chimpanzee could avoid the vision cones when time is literally stopped for the enemies in turn based mode. It also completely devalues a stealthy Rogue, when a Fighter in Heavy Armor is just as sneaky as long as you don't end up in a "vision cone". Everyone getting to Hide as a Bonus Action devalues the Rogue's unique abilities and flavor even more.

I think "vision cones" is a fundamentally bad and flawed mechanic, especially in a turn based game. And in a game where characters have skills to govern this aspect of gameplay. Someone walking forward would easily have a 180 vision cone by just looking left and right while walking. And a 360 sound sphere. Someone who is alert and actively searching should have a 360 cone.

The most braindead scenario is when you circle behind an enemy in melee and "hide" as a BA and then attack with Advantage.

Why would a fundamental feature like Stealth be unfinished after almost two years in Early Access? Clearly they prefer their Vision Cones mini-game instead of the 5e system. The only fix or improvement I would expect is enemies moving towards the last position marker instead of just sitting there getting killed.

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