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Of all the combat encounters in BG3 EA, I think this is genuinely the most janky and tedious combat encounter in the game. It provides almost zero challenge and takes longer because of the awkward conditions of the encounter.

For those that don't remember, the Arcane Turrets are the stationary defenses posted outside the Cleric's Tower (a part of the mushroom collection quest and where you meet Bernard). The "flow" of these fights are an uniquely awkward and tedious experience.

Unlike any other enemies in the game, engaging the turrets does not trigger initiative/combat as the game doesn't really recognize them as enemies, but they will shoot at you the moment you get into range. This experience is especially janky because you have manage the pace of the fight yourself (i.e. enter the turn-base mode manually or do it in a weird real-time method), neither which are the game's strong suits for combat. This also causes extra control issues - i.e. because they're aren't even fully classified as enemies in the game, mousing over the arcane turrets does not automatically give you an attack command - you have to take the extra step to click attack/cantrip each time you want to make a move.

There is no challenge to this fight, aside from struggling with the control issues and tedium. The turrets are stationary and can only shoot at a straight line (with an indicator that tells you this) - you can guarantee a "perfect" victory using only cantrips or basic ranged attacks as long as you take the time to move in and out of cover in Turnbase mode.

So you end up with an encounter that genuine provides no challenge, is tedious to control, wastes the player's time, and doesn't affect your overall resource management or have any long term implications at all.

You can eventually disable many of these turrets by following through with the tower quest. But unless I am missing some very niche unique ways to sneak by them, you're basically guaranteed to waste time with a couple of them before you can keep moving with a generally far more interesting quest, and I'm not sure what they add from a gameplay perspective. Now, I think having a perimeter defense for this tower does makes sense for the worldbuilding and immersion - but there's no reason for the non-standard control. I genuinely hope Larian figures something out to make this encounter more interesting.

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I have not done this fight but what you describe reminds me a lot of the defensive statues in the cave under the Druid Grove ...

Also,
Originally Posted by Topgoon
There is no challenge to this fight, aside from struggling with the control issues and tedium.

I will, once again, emit the wish that Larian will take notice of how often the words controls and tedium (in their various forms and derivatives) appear in players' feedback. And that they will decide to do something about it, of course.

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Im affraid this isnt really encounter ...
But just as with Grym, its much closer to Puzzle. smile

Originally Posted by Topgoon
mousing over the arcane turrets does not automatically give you an attack command - you have to take the extra step to click attack/cantrip each time you want to make a move.
I press Ctrl ... it makes your cursor to switch into attack comand. smile
Its especialy useable if you are sclerotic like me, your game is bugged and dont show properly wich boxes you allready checked, so you decide to smash them after looting ... or if you really want to smash every single one glowing gem in the underdark. laugh

Originally Posted by Topgoon
But unless I am missing some very niche unique ways to sneak by them
They are "acrane" turrets ... meaning they are powered by magic ...
And in the Underdark, there is one special plant, wich flowers can "disrupt" all magic within certain range ...
And as every other objects, those flowers are also throwable. wink

*wink* *wink*

You can thank me later. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 17/07/22 05:29 PM.

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I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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That's not a combat encounter. You're not supposed to fight them.
First of you can sneak around, pretty easily.
Second you can find sussur flowers in another area and just throw at those turrets to disable them.

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+1 to OP, if only because turn based can take a while to actually take effect if a bunch of effects are active in the environment, in this case, arcane missiles being fired in your face in rapid succession. (Also applies to the everburn inn)


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Yeah, the automatic defenses of the druid grove reminds me a lot of this, but I remember that experience less negatively because last time I went there, I was able to outrange the towers and knock them down... so it's tedious, but not as bad as this one.

As they are currently implemented - the arcane turrets are definitely a combat encounter - they give you a whooping 50 XP each (and sure you might hit the cap in the EA, but that's not the case for the main game).

Sneaking/running by them is definitely viable, as are the sussur flowers (good to know, though I'd argue having to grab the petals and dealing with the inventory system is even worst), but there was never any challenge in the first place. You can also just jump pass most of them with the Jump spell + Feather fall to get to the generator if you wanted to avoid the encounter all together.

Fundamentally, the problem here is that the encounter itself is unfun, and forcing the player to avoid the fight to avoid tedium is really not a good solution.

It's okay to have some paths be harder / more rewarding than others - but all of them should be fundamentally enjoyable to playthrough. That's just good game-design for a game so focused on providing player freedoms and various paths to success.

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
...the encounter itself is unfun...

I disagree. I think it's a nice change of pace, and I like that there are so many options for how to deal with it.

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but,,, they're not enemies, they're traps. you can choose to blow up every trap in a corridor to ensure your safety if you like but why in the world would the devs make that the most fun option? that would be awful game design. you can outrun them, outwit them, sneak around them, that's where you get the fun. sprinting through the environment and crouching/hiding behind rocks and fences and walls and stuff.

choosing to go the most obtuse route possible and then complaining that said route is obtuse is the peak of gamer egos; thinking that their specific personal experience is more important than general game design on the whole.

i can't believe there are people that actually spend the time destroying the turrets, or the statues in the druid's grove etc. the game hand feeds you information, such as the fact that the goblin horde and dwarf druid never trigger the statues due to them being so short - all you have to do to avoid them is shrink your characters, or turn into an animal (it's a druid's grove - they're animal guardian statues there to protect the animals) or crouch down and crawl across the floor (making yourself the same size as an animal) to avoid being hit. same with these turrets - they're ARCANE, and to get to them you first have to pass by a sussur tree - something the game tells you can nullify magic. i feel like it's pretty obvious that the easy way to beat the turrets is to throw sussur flowers at them. but, just like the druid cave, even if you didn't want to go the easy route, you can blaze through by sprinting and hiding and jumping and outpacing the turrets. there are plenty of non-tedious options imo and it seems like you're just choosing to do the most inconvenient thing for no real reason.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
That's not a combat encounter. You're not supposed to fight them.
First of you can sneak around, pretty easily.
Second you can find sulfur flowers in another area and just throw at those turrets to disable them.
While this is true (and I usually go for the route "Disable them all rather than fighting) there are problems with how the whole thing is framed.

For one, if you are not supposed to fight them, it should be made less easy/convenient to just play with the LOS and shoot them down, as it is now. Totally immune to damage of most type? More HP? Whatever works, frankly.
Because right now exploiting LOS and taking few minutes to shoot them down is a perfectly viable (if inanely boring) solution and it that's by design... I'm not a fan.

Also, the "stealth" path (or any alternate way to circumvent or disable them) should be a little more "readable" and less messy... Given what a wide area these turrets cover with their cone of vision (well, the first one, mostly) it always feel like I'm somewhat exploiting the game when I simply outrun their LOS-indicator once spotted, etc.

The best/fastest/most effective path I found so far was using Astarion (or whatever good lockpicker you are bringing in your party) to jump down on the giant fungi on the left of the entrance, reach the bottom of the tower, picklock the door and disable every turret without doing a single fight by activating the sussur-fueled furnace... But if your are going through a more conventional path (entering from the first floor and moving down) it feels like dealing with the turrets could get pretty annoying pretty quickly.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
...or whatever good lockpicker...

Failing that, you can just break down the door.

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Originally Posted by lilaque
there are plenty of non-tedious options imo and it seems like you're just choosing to do the most inconvenient thing for no real reason.
I have to plead stupidity, then. When something fires at me, I fire back till it stops.

I’d never noticed the subtle clues about how to avoid the glowing statues in the druid grove. Morons like me might be why a glowing deactivation button was added during EA.

I’d never thought to throw sussur flowers at the base of the arcane towers, either. Getting enough for each tower requires killing the hook horrors, though, so I don’t know how much easier that is.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
For one, if you are not supposed to fight them, it should be made less easy/convenient to just play with the LOS and shoot them down, as it is now. Totally immune to damage of most type? More HP? Whatever works, frankly.
Because right now exploiting LOS and taking few minutes to shoot them down is a perfectly viable (if inanely boring) solution and it that's by design... I'm not a fan.
Agreed. I would prefer them to be immune to all damage to make it real that they aren't meant for a fight.

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Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by lilaque
there are plenty of non-tedious options imo and it seems like you're just choosing to do the most inconvenient thing for no real reason.
I have to plead stupidity, then. When something fires at me, I fire back till it stops.

surely you can acknowledge, though, that redesigning sections of the game to have these big glowing off buttons for traps ends up ruining it for people who actually want to solve puzzles by thinking about the environment clues rather than just holding CTRL and clicking to attack

just an edit to say i hope you don't think i'm being condescending cuz i have no issue with the aggressive approach, i would even use that approach when playing as a barbarian etc, and it's totally your right to not problem-solve every trap you come across, i just don't think the subtle puzzle design that encourages nuanced solutions should be changed to force players down one route. not a fan of complaining about completely optional game mechanics/content when these complaints end up with consequences like those glowing off buttons in the grove cave

Last edited by lilaque; 17/07/22 09:03 PM. Reason: extra message
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Originally Posted by lilaque
not a fan of complaining about completely optional game mechanics/content when these complaints end up with consequences like those glowing off buttons in the grove cave
I totally understand that point of view.

My specific gripe was the time between clicking “turn-based mode” and the game world actually pausing. I’ve had PCs die more than once while waiting for turned-based mode to kick in.

A shorter reponse time would be helpful in assessing the situation calmly and figuring out what the puzzle actually is. As is, taking damage in real time does nothing but trigger my fight or flight response. Adrenaline has no use for subtle environmental storytelling.


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Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by lilaque
not a fan of complaining about completely optional game mechanics/content when these complaints end up with consequences like those glowing off buttons in the grove cave


My specific gripe was the time between clicking “turn-based mode” and the game world actually pausing. I’ve had PCs die more than once while waiting for turned-based mode to kick in.

oh yeah I get that 100% - i think it comes down to how far in the current 'turn' you press the button. obviously every 6 seconds of live game time is a 'turn' according to the game so if you press enter turn based mode at the 1 second mark it's gonna make you wait 5 seconds for the turn to end so that other NPCs, traps, enemies etc all get to finish their 'turn' before they're paused. it definitely could do with some work to make it more obvious but i would suggest maybe preemptively clicking the button rather than reactively clicking it.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Tuco
For one, if you are not supposed to fight them, it should be made less easy/convenient to just play with the LOS and shoot them down, as it is now. Totally immune to damage of most type? More HP? Whatever works, frankly.
Because right now exploiting LOS and taking few minutes to shoot them down is a perfectly viable (if inanely boring) solution and it that's by design... I'm not a fan.
Agreed. I would prefer them to be immune to all damage to make it real that they aren't meant for a fight.

This is just dumb. You're meant to have multiple options when it comes to dealing with them. Forcing less options is just forcing other people to play the scene the way some other random player prefers.

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Originally Posted by JandK
This is just dumb. You're meant to have multiple options when it comes to dealing with them. Forcing less options is just forcing other people to play the scene the way some other random player prefers.

+1

this mentality is basically people asking to be guided towards a specific solution. part of what makes bg3 and dos2 so great is that the game isn't screaming in your face what you should do to solve something, and it doesn't force you to take a certain route. can't find a key to a locked gate? pushed the guy holding the key into a pit of lava and watched the key melt? enemy cast heat metal on the key so whenever you touch it it burns you? smash that gate down. imagine if the game made all gates immune to all damage because you're "meant" to use the key.

one of the coolest things that happened to me in any of my playthroughs was in the crypt in the room with all the grease & fire traps. spoilers for the trap solution; my oc Silk loots the sarcophagus, everyone in my party is knocked to the ground by slipping on all the grease, besides Silk, who stands just next to the sarcophagus where the grease can't reach. the button is on the other side of the room, and she'd have to step in the grease to reach it. obviously the game wants me to think that i'm "meant" to press the button to survive, but instead Silk pulls out a spear from her backpack and launches it straight through the button, skewering it and triggering the release mechanism; the grease valves stop leaking and that gives my party enough time to dash towards the doorway before the gargoyles growl to life and shoot fireballs everywhere.

i know i'm probably not the only one who's done that, or something similar, but it genuinely was exhilarating thinking on my feet in the moment to avoid being slaughtered thanks to a split second decision aided by the game's immense freedom of choice - the game needs MORE of that not less.

Last edited by lilaque; 17/07/22 09:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by lilaque
+1

this mentality is basically people asking to be guided towards a specific solution. part of what makes bg3 and dos2 so great is that the game isn't screaming in your face what you should do to solve something, and it doesn't force you to take a certain route. can't find a key to a locked gate? pushed the guy holding the key into a pit of lava and watched the key melt? enemy cast heat metal on the key so whenever you touch it it burns you? smash that gate down. imagine if the game made all gates immune to all damage because you're "meant" to use the key.
Exploiting LOS to take down a turret that otherwise would shoot you down at the fantasy equivalent of a gatling's rate of fire does NOT count as a legitimate combat option, though.
Disabling one layer of immunity in some way or forcing them to target some sort of bait and then destroying them once and for all would, on the other hand.

And since you mention it... The game should also be far less generous with the amount of doors it simply allows you to whack through.
Which is luckily something that they DID start addressing at some point.

"Multiple solutions and approaches" and "Everything goes because it's broken anyway" are two VERY different design solutions.


P.S. And having broken and exploitable things in spades (sometimes purposefully, under the questionable assumption that the player would find them "fun and rewarding to exploit") was precisely one of the NOT-SO-COOL things about DOS 2, incidentally.

P.P.S.

Quote
one of the coolest things that happened to me in any of my playthroughs was in the crypt in the room with all the grease & fire traps. spoilers for the trap solution; my oc Silk loots the sarcophagus, everyone in my party is knocked to the ground by slipping on all the grease, besides Silk, who stands just next to the sarcophagus where the grease can't reach. the button is on the other side of the room, and she'd have to step in the grease to reach it. obviously the game wants me to think that i'm "meant" to press the button to survive, but instead Silk pulls out a spear from her backpack and launches it straight through the button, skewering it and triggering the release mechanism; the grease valves stop leaking and that gives my party enough time to dash towards the doorway before the gargoyles growl to life and shoot fireballs everywhere.
Any type of projectile or ranged spell achieves the same exact result, for the record.

Last edited by Tuco; 17/07/22 10:03 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Exploiting LOS to take down a turret that otherwise would shoot you down at the fantasy equivalent of a gatling's rate of fire does NOT count as a legitimate combat option, though.

And since you mention it... The game should also be far less generous with the amount of doors it simply allows you to whack through.
Which is luckily something that they DID start addressing at some point.

"Multiple solutions and approaches" and "Everything goes because it's broken anyway" are two VERY different design solutions.


P.S. And having broken and exploitable things in spades (sometimes purposefully, under the questionable assumption that the player would find them "fun and rewarding to exploit") was precisely one of the NOT-SO-COOL things about DOS 2, incidentally.

again... I'm not one of the people who attacks the turrets. I literally have done nothing but advocate for creative problem solving that DOESNT result in just destroying things. but if you're playing a character who *would* just destroy things why should you not have that option as a player? it's not a competitive game, it's NOT an e-sport. other players aren't affected in any way at all by someone busting down a door or destroying a turret in their own playthrough. if you find breaking items in the environment not fun then simply don't do it....

Originally Posted by Tuco
P.P.S.


Any type of projectile or ranged spell achieves the same exact result, for the record.

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Originally Posted by lilaque
i would suggest maybe preemptively clicking the button rather than reactively clicking it.
Good point, but exploring in turn based mode is really tedious, so that advice only applies on subsequent playthroughs (and only if I can remember what’s coming).


Larian, please make accessibility a priority for upcoming patches.
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