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#821967 19/07/22 05:24 AM
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This building just going to burn forever?

Suggestion: After both rescues are complete (either way). This would be a good time for Elminster to arrive and put the fire out.

Ho there Traveler....

The Flaming Fist thank everyone's efforts, and rebuilding begins.

Since you don't have an in game clock, than we should see some progress based on full-rests...or by overall progress, such as completing quests.

At least something to transition...full restoration by the time we reach Balder's Gate.


This makes the world feel dynamic, even if the sun doesn't seem to move.

Last edited by Van'tal; 19/07/22 05:24 AM.
#821969 19/07/22 06:24 AM
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+1


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#821971 19/07/22 06:31 AM
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#821976 19/07/22 07:16 AM
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+1

Waukeen's Rest is an area that highlights some of the flaws in BG 3 in general. You can easily see the burning inn from the destroyed bridge on the Risen Road and yet decide to deal with the toll house first, then rescue the Zhent survivors, take a long rest... all knowing you'll arrive in time to deal with the fire.
This removes any sense of urgency, due to the static nature of quests. You're never forced to make a decision between aiding the Flaming Fist in dealing with the fire or coming to the rescue of the survivors of the gnoll raid.

#821992 19/07/22 09:40 AM
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This building is indeed thorn stuck deep in Larians side ...
To me it allways seemed like this scene was allways ment for single-time performance ... and yet people keep returning there just to observe something that dont makes sense.

Its true tho, it realy dont ...
Im just not entirely convinced that anyone expected us to come back and withness it.
I mean ... you arive the scene ... there is some time pressure ... you do all you can do withing that imaginatory time limit ...
And thats it, nothing to see there afterwards. laugh

Just as we can ask how is that possible that if we take 30 Long Rests ... those druids are chanting their spell for whole month without eating, sleeping, drinking, or ... well, things that should go in should also go out, if you know what i mean. laugh

-

This all seems like purposefull breaking the game, just to complain about the game can be broken ...
Yes, it can ... it allways can ... you managed, clap clap, here is you diplom.

Thats just the thing with games that have open, or semi-open world ... things are allways as they are until player comes, thats how it is and thats how it allways ben ... why?
Bcs its fun!

Its more fun to come "just in time to save people from burning house, or from attack of bloodthirsty Gnolls, or arive just when common folk are arguing with the hag" ...

Would be quite dull if you would tavel through land where Grove would be raided down, zhentarims would be ripped appart, waukeens rest would be burned down, Ethel would be long gone and Marina Brothers would be rotting in the swamp, and goblin camp would be massacred by one really agry bear. laugh And all that just bcs you took one-more Long Rest than someone in Larian presumed you would need. laugh

-

Dont get me wrong here, i would love it if the game would have timed events that would happen simultaneously ...
So one of my characters would help one group, but never managed to reach other in time ...
And another of my characters would go different route and have completely different experience for that reason.

It sounds awesome to me ...
The problem is i cant quite imagine how would they manage to do this (system-wise), without creating other paradoxes. laugh

Therefore its just easier (and most likely even more practical) to see all encounters as separate one-act scenarios, where you were never meaned to return. smile

Originally Posted by Van'tal
The Flaming Fist thank everyone's efforts, and rebuilding begins.
I must say this sentence makes me a little confused. O_o

Puting aside that The Flaming Fist have most likely zero interest in rebuilding anything ... since as far as i know, they are mercenary group that keeps order in Baldur's Gate ... and since there was at least two important Baldur's Gate figures in the rest (Florick and that Grand Duke), they were present most likely as personal guards, rather than anything else. O_o

Im not even sure if there is anyone willing to rebuild something ...
I mean the whole place was raided down ... meaning owner of the inn is either dead, or taken to Moonrise Towers ...
So ... im affraid there wont be any rebuilding any time soon. :-/


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#821996 19/07/22 10:15 AM
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Larian.
<building> static time frozen worlds.

At least with the world of Rivellon (DOS1/2) I imagined the planet one side is locked with its star...and the lands are in between. Hence the never ending daylight...and weird time keeping. Maybe there is a black hole nearby in the planetery system. Whatever! Point being Larian didn't go that far in the Lore, which is GREAT. Leaves it to our imagination.

But for Faerun...all the <planet> lore is already there that supports having day/night and the passing of time...which is shown in BG3 just by pressing the camp button; this then creates a portal to the <upside down> world. lol.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 19/07/22 10:30 AM.
Kendaric #822004 19/07/22 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kendaric
+1

Waukeen's Rest is an area that highlights some of the flaws in BG 3 in general. You can easily see the burning inn from the destroyed bridge on the Risen Road and yet decide to deal with the toll house first, then rescue the Zhent survivors, take a long rest... all knowing you'll arrive in time to deal with the fire.
This removes any sense of urgency, due to the static nature of quests. You're never forced to make a decision between aiding the Flaming Fist in dealing with the fire or coming to the rescue of the survivors of the gnoll raid.

I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.

#822007 19/07/22 10:58 AM
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Point is, if it's not mechanically urgent, then as a designer you must not create a situation in-universe where it seems like it is: If the Rest will wait for us to arrive, then we absolutely must not be able to see it burning before we get there.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Dont get me wrong here, i would love it if the game would have timed events that would happen simultaneously ...
So one of my characters would help one group, but never managed to reach other in time ...
And another of my characters would go different route and have completely different experience for that reason.

It sounds awesome to me ...
The problem is i cant quite imagine how would they manage to do this (system-wise), without creating other paradoxes. laugh

Therefore its just easier (and most likely even more practical) to see all encounters as separate one-act scenarios, where you were never meaned to return. smile

In case of Waukeen's Rest, it could have been handled quite easily. Trigger the event by seeing smoke rising from some point (perhaps even have companion point it out), then if you decide to rest rather than investigate and do the stuff related to the fire, you'd get a cutscene where the fire is largely under control, Florick is standing outside (having been rescued by the Flaming Fist mercenaries) and tells you of the situation with the Grand Duke.

It's certainly doable. Does it take some effort? Sure, but it would be worth it in my opinion.

The situation with the Zhent caravan survivors and the gnolls would be even easier. Ignore them for too long and have the gnolls slaughter them. You'd still be able to get the chest and it's contents, you'd still get the fight with the gnolls (only difference is that you wouldn't get the "send them into the cave to slaughter" in the dialogue with the flind), the only thing you wouldn't get is the password to get into Zhent hideout (which could happen anyway depending on the dialogue goes).

Having a chance for failure or to miss out on some things is a good thing in a RPG. Having to take on some encounters without being fully rested can be fun and lead to developing new strategies to cope with the situation. That, as well, is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Niara
Point is, if it's not mechanically urgent, then as a designer you must not create a situation in-universe where it seems like it is: If the Rest will wait for us to arrive, then we absolutely must not be able to see it burning before we get there.

Correct smile

Last edited by Kendaric; 19/07/22 11:09 AM.
Niara #822012 19/07/22 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Niara
Point is, if it's not mechanically urgent, then as a designer you must not create a situation in-universe where it seems like it is: If the Rest will wait for us to arrive, then we absolutely must not be able to see it burning before we get there.
Yep. And ideally there should be a "post-emergency" state, as well.

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Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.
It's not "lame" at all. It's consistent.

But the funny thing is, BG3 DOES have urgency when it's convenient to the designers (the Bugbear assassin will kill the tiefling near the telescope if you don't solve the ambush before leaving the area, the harpies will kill the kid near the beach, etc) but the "countdown" tends to be even more unclear and arbitrary compared to Kingmaker, that sure, uses "hidden timers" that in some cases could be made a bit clearer, but usually sets them on fairly long timeframe of reference (i.e. "You have X MONTHS to do this")

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Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.
Exactly!

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Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
Originally Posted by Kendaric
+1

Waukeen's Rest is an area that highlights some of the flaws in BG 3 in general. You can easily see the burning inn from the destroyed bridge on the Risen Road and yet decide to deal with the toll house first, then rescue the Zhent survivors, take a long rest... all knowing you'll arrive in time to deal with the fire.
This removes any sense of urgency, due to the static nature of quests. You're never forced to make a decision between aiding the Flaming Fist in dealing with the fire or coming to the rescue of the survivors of the gnoll raid.

I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.

It all depends on how the timers are implemented/communicated to the player(s).

I guess you haven't played Fallout 1 or if you have, didn't enjoy it? It has a 60 days timer for the first half of the main quest (the water purification chip). This is clearly communicated to the player and it adds a lot to the game. You are on an urgent mission after all and shouldn't tarry as lives depend on you.

The possibility of failure is part of the fun.

Tuco #822024 19/07/22 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.
It's not "lame" at all. It's consistent.

But the funny thing is, BG3 DOES have urgency when it's convenient to the designers (the Bugbear assassin will kill the tiefling near the telescope if you don't solve the ambush before leaving the area, the harpies will kill the kid near the beach, etc) but the "countdown" tends to be even more unclear and arbitrary compared to Kingmaker, that sure, uses "hidden timers" that in some cases could be made a bit clearer, but usually sets them on fairly long timeframe of reference (i.e. "You have X MONTHS to do this")

What I meant is this usually create a " you have to complete those events in this particular order othewise you will miss on those stories" wich is very close to rail roading for me. As for the world events as far as I can tell they seem to "trigger" if you get close to them OR if you complete certain events that advances time like clearing the goblin camp. It could be better communicated yes I agree because I remember my first playthrough where I tried to avoid long resting like the plague afraid I would turn if I spent too much time resting.

Last edited by ExarchofJustice; 19/07/22 02:21 PM.
#822027 19/07/22 01:01 PM
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The problem is not the existence of timers in games in general.
Fallout 1 and Kingmaker count the days and at least for the main quest you can see the timer. They have other timed quests where the timer is really hidden but at least you know time is an importent factor in those games.

"False urgency" is present in almost every RPG. It is normal that NPC tell you to do something fast but the game does not care what you do until you actually go there and start the quest.

The problem of BG3 is that it puts a timed quest in a game where time stands still.
Nothing is urgent in BG3 and then we come to a point where you have to act fast.


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Kendaric #822029 19/07/22 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
I imagined the planet one side is locked with its star...and the lands are in between. Hence the never ending daylight...
I dont understand that part about lands in between ... you mean between planet and the star? O_o

But to achieve neverending daylight, all you need is planet to be rotating around its own axis with same speed as it rotates around it star ...

I can think about Ryloth ... if you would want some example from Sci-fi ...
Or if you would like something more realistic, maybe you noticed that Moon is turned to our planet the same side every night. wink

Its not actualy as impossible as it may seem. smile

Originally Posted by Kendaric
In case of Waukeen's Rest, it could have been handled quite easily.
Nah, you just created one potential scenario. smile
Thats all.

Originally Posted by Kendaric
Trigger the event by seeing smoke rising from some point (perhaps even have companion point it out), then if you decide to rest rather than investigate and do the stuff related to the fire, you'd get a cutscene where the fire is largely under control, Florick is standing outside (having been rescued by the Flaming Fist mercenaries) and tells you of the situation with the Grand Duke.
What if you dont rest?
What if you go and deal with Gnolls on the road, and Zhentarim people in that cave, and Paladins at Tollhouse ... and then you return to that burning inn within single Long Rest >> aka. whithin single day?

Originally Posted by Kendaric
It's certainly doable.
OH yes it is, the problem was not it would be impossible to do ... anything is possible, when you have acess to console comands ... eh i mean when you are developer. laugh

The problem is, this dont solve anything ... you created one potential way to deal with situation, but nothing else.

Originally Posted by Kendaric
The situation with the Zhent caravan survivors and the gnolls would be even easier. Ignore them for too long and have the gnolls slaughter them.
Well there is allways speak with dead ... but thats not the problem.

What exactly is "too long" and when it start count?
THOSE are real problems in such scenario. smile

Originally Posted by Kendaric
Having a chance for failure or to miss out on some things is a good thing in a RPG.
Well ... in general, yes ... but it allways depends on execution.

I use my favourite example: Arabella, the Thief(ling).
In general ... having a chance for failure i a good thing ... most certainly 100% agree.
But the execution in game, where you either win an arugment, that is presented by SINGLE diceroll, wich sucess rate depend on ONE of your stats, no matter how important or even fitting it is for your character otherwise ... OR your character is forced to stand there with hands on his/hers hips and without moving a single muscle watch child being bitten by snake and die ... thats poor execution and therefore it was not good thing. :-/

Simmiar it would be here ...
IF the game would put us to situation where it would be clearly stated that we have to choose wich one will we help ... but i mean REALLY clearly ... it would have potential to end well, even tho it would certainly not be guaranteed. laugh

As we are now, many (and i certainly admit that i dont know how many, but to name one ... Icelyn, this is not snarky coment btw, she said it herself some time ago) people would be frustrated.

You also should count with that there will be people who will purposefully try to break the system ... and split their group in order to help both ... or will go do something entirely different, just to see if the game will have balls to let everyone die. laugh

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Kendaric
I guess you haven't played Fallout 1 or if you have, didn't enjoy it? It has a 60 days timer for the first half of the main quest (the water purification chip). This is clearly communicated to the player and it adds a lot to the game. You are on an urgent mission after all and shouldn't tarry as lives depend on you.

The possibility of failure is part of the fun.
Unless your time expired just few "steppes" (not litteraly) from completing the quest ... in that case, it just sucks. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/07/22 01:19 PM.

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Icelyn #822054 19/07/22 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by ExarchofJustice
I'm cool with not having a sense of urgency in a video game.. I get why some people want it but I experienced Pathfinder Kingmaker wich constantly throws "urgent" things in your face with invisible timers in the background wich mean unless you complete certain things in a particular order you get screwed over from experiencing the content. This kind of feeling is pretty lame in a single player rpg.
Exactly!
Exactly wrong.
And you didn't play Kingmaker (or any of the other titles we typically talk about in these discussions, like Solasta etc) by your own admission, so not sure why you insist on pretending you have a detailed opinion about how they play.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Exactly wrong.
And you didn't play Kingmaker (or any of the other titles we typically talk about in these discussions, like Solasta etc) by your own admission, so not sure why you insist on pretending you have a detailed opinion about how they play.
I was agreeing with ExarchofJustice’s post in general about not liking timed quests even if my own experience of timed quests was from a different game.

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Specific to Waukeen's Rest, the issue is generally presentation/trigger. The timer/time progression is a valid, but also bigger discussion (i.e. time progressing with day/night cycle vs. long rests) - but within the current system the major issue is a lack of a "before, during, and after" states for the burning area.

I.e. the most simple solution is to ensure the fire isn't visible super far away, and but once it becomes anywhere close to visible, the quest and timer starts (and the player should be warned by the journal at this time). And once the timer completes or the quest is completed, then we just need a end slate for the inn to stay in (i.e. completely burnt, etc).


For better or for worst, BG3 has "timed/urgent" quests. They aren't triggered by the actual passage of time but progression/long rests, but they are urgent none the less in the sense that they're missable if you progressed too far.

I.e. saving the child from the Harpy, saving that tiefling girl from the bugbear assassin, the fire at Waukeen's Rest, Nere's quest at Grymforge, etc.

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Yeah. I also have a problem with the sense of timelessness. Larian, please redo a few things like:

- From the telescope, I can see Waukeen's Rest burning as if the attack on it just occurred. But then, I spend 5 LRs to get there and it's still burning and they say they just got attacked. We need to remove the burning inn from the telescope. Have it NOT burning when you look at it from the telescope.

- I do the entire Waukeen's Rest quest, and LR several times. Then I head to the Gith Patrol, and the inn is still burning and the Flaming Fist are still there mourning the dead. If I've completed the quest, the fire should go out, and the place should become abandoned. Either that, or the Flaming Fist leave a small patrol to guard what's left. SOMETHING besides leaving it burning and them mourning forever.

- If I talk to the three tieflings in the grove, and I get them to agree to stay and help fight, they make their way down by where Ethel and the other cook are. Then they talk endlessly about how Rolan "cares about our lives, our futures!" Even when you talk to them again at that location, once you say goodbye, they STILL carry on that same conversation. I don't know why, but that one drives me the most insane. I mean, others do it too, but that particular one just hits a nerve or something. I'd rather have background ambiance conversation-sounding noise than actual conversations repeated over and over and over again. Maybe the first time I make my way through, that's fine. But after that? No. Repeated conversations are fine for NPCs in video games where they aren't voiced. Once you voice them, they get REAL annoying REAL fast.

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