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My wish was that shorty player characters (gnomes and halflings) be provided with more dialogue options, specifically when this companion - for whom additional dialogue options have already been added in later patches - insults them to their face.

Someone pointed out that Lae'zel is insulting and you can't call her out on it. I disagree. You can. You can tell her to stand down, shut up, stop talking about tieflings that way, you can take control of the conversation away from her in many instances.
You don't have to. It always results in companion disapproval so I assume they're not popular, but the lines are there. There are dialogue options where you let her espouse the gith's superiority, or even ask for more information. You can retort whenever Gale is acting even slightly arrogant towards you - with comments that are twice as biting. Hell, you can actually kill Gale for joking that he 'saw you lying in a crucible's worth of blood, an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear'. You can kill someone for being flippant.

I am certainly not arguing for the removal of those options. I hope I made it clear in my first post: I believe that Lae'zel, Astarion, Gale, and the others' character concepts are fine. But I believe that all Tavs should have the option to not be a doormat when they are insulted, not just the popular races. smile

@Fisher, cognitive recalibration (Avengers-style) is a strong knock to the head, which would be very in-character for some classes and character types.

If everyone can punch drop Aradin, why can't we punch drop someone else who is equally or more insulting? 'Because the Forgotten Realms are racist and we don't need to cover it in glitter' is not a good answer, since BG3 has already implemented the option - Tavs can punch, curse out, or even kill people who displease them. Tavs can fling poop at the goblins who wanted to humiliate them - this is the sort of thing that makes things fun.

This post is getting overly long so I'll just end it with a couple of questions: without a varied range of replies, how are they going to have the Origins play out? Should Origin Lae'zel swallow every pointed gith comment from Shadowheart? Should Origin Helia (halfling werewolf) swallow every pointed comment from Astarion?

The option should be there to disapprove - with words, with childishly blowing a raspberry, with a good buttkicking, heck, with something ridiculous. Whether we use it or not, I believe it should be up to how we want to roleplay not what we are missing.


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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Lets just hope they dont missunderstood our intentions here and remove all racism from the game, bcs people didnt like it. :-/
I actually happen to think the discussion here has been fairly nuanced. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.
Oh it it certainly is ... as long as you are trying to actualy read and understand.

But concidering past demands (or suggestions) from people, and later Larian implementation ... they just sometimes tend to explain things in their own way.


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Originally Posted by Neleothesze
My wish was that shorty player characters (gnomes and halflings) be provided with more dialogue options, specifically when this companion - for whom additional dialogue options have already been added in later patches - insults them to their face.

Someone pointed out that Lae'zel is insulting and you can't call her out on it. I disagree. You can. You can tell her to stand down, shut up, stop talking about tieflings that way, you can take control of the conversation away from her in many instances.
You don't have to. It always results in companion disapproval so I assume they're not popular, but the lines are there. There are dialogue options where you let her espouse the gith's superiority, or even ask for more information. You can retort whenever Gale is acting even slightly arrogant towards you - with comments that are twice as biting. Hell, you can actually kill Gale for joking that he 'saw you lying in a crucible's worth of blood, an intellect devourer nibbling at your ear'. You can kill someone for being flippant.

I am certainly not arguing for the removal of those options. I hope I made it clear in my first post: I believe that Lae'zel, Astarion, Gale, and the others' character concepts are fine.

But I believe that all Tavs should have the option to not be a doormat when they are insulted, not just the popular races. smile

@Fisher, cognitive recalibration (Avengers-style) is a strong knock to the head, which would be very in-character for some classes and character types.

If everyone can punch drop Aradin, why can't we punch drop someone else who is equally or more insulting? 'Because the Forgotten Realms are racist and we don't need to cover it in glitter' is not a good answer, since BG3 has already implemented the option - Tavs can punch, curse out, or even kill people who displease them. Tavs can fling poop at the goblins who wanted to humiliate them - this is the sort of thing that makes things fun.

This post is getting overly long so I'll just end it with a couple of questions: without a varied range of replies, how are they going to have the Origins play out? Should Origin Lae'zel swallow every pointed gith comment from Shadowheart? Should Origin Helia (halfling werewolf) swallow every pointed comment from Astarion?

The option should be there to disapprove - with words, with childishly blowing a raspberry, with a good buttkicking, heck, with something ridiculous. Whether we use it or not, I believe it should be up to how we want to roleplay not what we are missing.

I agree. But, and without trying to be controversial, I think Tav should also have in general the ability to be openly racist/evil and for instance push the tiefling down to laezel if needs be. (After all you can go evil). What would be great is to have some internal clock to spot how good - evil we are (and potentially lawful - chaotic) with options being added / removed as you are drifting

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You can already join Lae'zel in pressuring the tiefling into kneeling and grovelling. I imagine that you don't get to push him at least in part because they didn't want to bother animating it when you can get the same result with just words. The issue I've always had with alignment-based choices in games is that it's very rare that the choices can take into account your intentions with the choices. So say Tav says some racist things to ingratiate themselves with agroup of thugs, with the intent of turning on them and killing them when the opportunity arises, that shouldn't tick your evil meter up the way being genuinely racist would. And adding/removing options based on alignment can be a tricky thing to do in games, if the devs end up locking actions that logically should be available to any alignment. And I really don't trust Larian to interpret alignment very well, so I honestly think the game is better without it.

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I'm sorry, but every time I read this topic title, the same thought runs through my head, and I have to get it out of my system:

You really have to hand it to short people, literally, because they can't reach it.

I'm reminded of a scene in DA Origins, where Leliana thinks about what she could do for the dwarven king, which included "handing them things on tall shelves". Paraphrased badly.

Sorry, I'll see myself out.

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For me it is in general to be able to call companions out more often on obvious BS. I mean, apart from the racism, you should be able to call Astarion out on his obvious delight on seeing others suffer, but then throw a temper tantrum when something happens to him - or his generally snotty attitude. You should be able to press Wyll more about the things, he is obviously hiding - you can do that as a warlock, but you have the same vision as every other class and you should at least be able to ask him again about the demon in the vision. And so many other things with all the other companions. I feel, like you can talk back to Lae'zel the most, but still, there are lines in her dialogues too, that I want to address.
And I find it only fair, if you have the option to call out Astarion for being dismissiv and racist towards small races as a gnome or halfling. If someone would be like that to me in real life, I would want to call them out.
At least you can send some of the companions (if not all - never realyl tested it) away. The game fails to properly notice it though for now. For example: When I send Astarion away or kill him and I tell the Gur about it, the dialogue after with one of the companions will be as if I actively betrayed a companion still in the group.


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I just re-read my previous post, and I have come to the conclusion I should not write when sleep-deprived wink It’s already difficult enough for me to write in English under normal circumstances, but then, it is even more of a mess. And I completely forgot to add the quote I wanted to refer to.

I’ve tried to clean it up a bit and made some additions:

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Suggestion: Larian, if you can add a line when a companion is saying something bigoted.... just add one line, ok, where Tav can at least react to Astarion's other racist comments. I assure you not every Tav likes being compared to an animal, is comfortable with being shown outright disgust, or enjoys hearing this about another race.

Astarion can stay true to his character concept but let Tav react to it - just as Tav can now react to the vampire hunter scene.

I agree, I would like that, too. The Tavs I like to role-play would not just swallow their anger if they were insulted (or if he would insult other people), they would definitely not put up with that. There are also other lines, not only from Astarion, that I would like to be able to adress (regarding a variety of topics). But in the situations Neleothesze described, it is the most obvious that some very important dialogue options for our Tavs are missing.


Originally Posted by Niara
Options to define our characters are a good thing; the ability to characterise ourself and how we feel about things is important in a character driven roleplaying game.

I would very much like more options to define my Tav's character in dialogue, too. Since our Tav's lines are not voiced, adding some dialogue lines could be possible, to give players the possibility to react more in character, especially when talking to the companions. Of course, it would be really nice if the companions would react to this, too - but I know this would be a lot of work, and is therefore probably not possible.

I do not want every character in this game to be nice, and act in a way that I would agree to in real life. What I would like is the possibility to make my Tav react to them in a way that fits the character I made up. I'd like to be able to role-play a wide range of characters; from kind to malicious ones; wily characters, altruistic characters, hot-headed characters etc.

I like the way this is implemented in the scene between Lae’zel and Zorru, where you can either join Lae'zel, tell her to shut up, or just say nothing.

(Oh, and one option I would really like for magic user Tavs: the possibility to threaten an opponent with a bit of magic wink )


And as for my implied criticism of Astarion's character writing in my previous post, concerning his racist remarks:
What bothered me at first was that "racist high elf noble" would be a bit too much of a cliche, I thought it would be a bit lazy. But considering what we know (or what is implied) about his time as a magistrate, it seems to be an important part of his character concept (I think it is strongly implied that he made some unfair/racist rulings). If he were a human, it would still work, in this case, it's not just a cliche added on top just because he is a high elf.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Larian made their own world space - They created Rivellon. They *chose* to create a world that had deeply god-supported and god-encouraged racism built into its very core, and they wallowed in that gratuitously, had most characters engage in it openly, and even displayed it in the characters that were treated as a goodly and heroic, and had no-one act like it was anything other than completely acceptable. They made that world - that was their choice. They could have built the world any way they wanted, but that was the way they chose to make it. Our characters were made complicit in this as well - it was a backdrop that we were forced to be a part of and even participate in. And it was disgusting.
I can give Rivellon the benefit of the doubt in that it was made with satire at the core, and - to drive the point home - nobody at all whatsoever was not a target for somebody else's bigotry there, and at no point was it presented as the moral high ground (in fact, the Divine Order in D:OS2 are basically as trasparently in the wrong as they can possibly be). It was a lot more lighthearted back in Divine Divinity (where, at most, you have the stereotypical "dwarves don't like elves and vice versa"), but it did get turned up a notch in Dragon Commander and the OS games. The former does basically serve as a fantasy-fied satire of the real-world ideas and ideologies, with you struggling to stay sane as you try to cater to everyone at the same time so that you don't lose a specific race's support. The latter... I don't really have a problem with them, personally. I guess I am too much of a hardcore WH40K fan, the setting in which every species has at least one slur for another, to be perturbed by it, and I can roleplay my characters in a way where even the more forced moments come with at least some for of rationalization to them. Still, the point there (at least from my perspective) was to showcase that everyone is in some way prejudiced and flawed, and that nobody is exempt from having those flaws called out - in a satirical, snarky manner which is probably the most non-malicious way to go about the topic in question. There is no deeper nuance and parallels with the real world to look for there.

Point being, it does help to accept the world for what it is rather than actively despise it if it does not flow well with somebody's values, if the media based on it is worth doing it for. It would have been quite difficult to play something like The Age of Decadence or Serpent in the Staglands without that. All deeply subjective, obviously.

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From certain point of view its funny ...
Its not so long some of us were complainging that this world dont feel racist enough to presumabely Evil races (Drow, Githyanki,...) and worshippers of Evil Gods. laugh


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Not to belittle the conversation, but it reminds me of this:



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Unleash the giant within!

Don't let those insults get you down. When folks sling rocks at you, use them as stepping stones.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Larian did not make the Forgotten Realms. They don't have that liberty here. A great deal of racial tension exists in the realms, but it is not treated as a good or acceptable thing by the majority of goodly people, not here. It should not be normalised into everyday acceptance here.
It is normalized into everyday acceptance in Realms among some goodly races. And has been for a long, long time. I remember reading about Gold Dwarves of the Great Rift in Dwarves Deep. There they are identified as a Lawful Good society that considers every other culture inferior and has a strong prejudice against other sentient races. The only race they accept as worthy of some trust is gnomes. And even then they consider them second-rate. I'm pretty sure that if you look into what Ed wrote back in the day more closely, you will find a lot more examples.

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The thread is deviating into jokes and lore discussions unrelated to the original topic, that of additional dialogue choices. smile

Giving shorty races dialogue choices to react when they are being insulted, dialogue choices which are available in other situations to other races already: Tieflings and Lae'zel, Gith and Shadowheart, all characters in Aradin's, Gale' and Gandrins case, etc.

When you untie the Svirfneblin at the mill, he asks: this is where you try to rob me? He expects it. The player can do it, can pretend ignorance, or not do it. Clear-cut choices which cover the majority of playstyles. up

Unless you believe that every player - regardless of class, background, RP - would select choices where their Tavs ignore Astarion's insults just because they rolled a gnome/halfling/dwarf, please don't bring generalized, normalized, or internalized racism as a counter-argument.

(An argument that doesn't even hold water since you can punch Aradin from patch 1 for spouting similar stuff to Astarion)

Dialogue railroading is an example of bad writing - and unfortunately present in plenty of party-based RPGs, where the main character interacts with key NPCs (either quest relevant or writer's favorites). Said NPCs suddenly gain 'plot armor'/'protagonist halo' for the time it takes to spout some remark without the PC being able to react to it.

Regardless of whether or not you've played a shorty race or ever intend to play a shorty race, please be clear about what you are arguing for. You are not defending your option to 'be evil' or 'conform to the Forgotten Realms' social norms' (that was not in question), you are defending Tav having fewer dialogue choices because it makes Astarion look cool.

If some of the above posters want to ask for their own additional dialogue choices (demeaning, racist, more evil choices - being some of the ideas) or they want to analyze the FR lore, please start a separate thread. It appears you will have plenty of support.

(Just because a citizen wrote a request to the city council for more water fountains in the public parks, doesn't mean suddenly all pet owners should scribble at the bottom of said request that they should be allowed to walk their pets without leashes through said public parks. hug)


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Originally Posted by Neleothesze
The thread is deviating into jokes and lore discussions unrelated to the original topic, that of additional dialogue choices. smile

Giving shorty races dialogue choices to react when they are being insulted, dialogue choices which are available in other situations to other races already: Tieflings and Lae'zel, Gith and Shadowheart, all characters in Aradin's, Gale' and Gandrins case, etc.

When you untie the Svirfneblin at the mill, he asks: this is where you try to rob me? He expects it. The player can do it, can pretend ignorance, or not do it. Clear-cut choices which cover the majority of playstyles. up

Unless you believe that every player - regardless of class, background, RP - would select choices where their Tavs ignore Astarion's insults just because they rolled a gnome/halfling/dwarf, please don't bring generalized, normalized, or internalized racism as a counter-argument.

(An argument that doesn't even hold water since you can punch Aradin from patch 1 for spouting similar stuff to Astarion)

Dialogue railroading is an example of bad writing - and unfortunately present in plenty of party-based RPGs, where the main character interacts with key NPCs (either quest relevant or writer's favorites). Said NPCs suddenly gain 'plot armor'/'protagonist halo' for the time it takes to spout some remark without the PC being able to react to it.

Regardless of whether or not you've played a shorty race or ever intend to play a shorty race, please be clear about what you are arguing for. You are not defending your option to 'be evil' or 'conform to the Forgotten Realms' social norms' (that was not in question), you are defending Tav having fewer dialogue choices because it makes Astarion look cool.

If some of the above posters want to ask for their own additional dialogue choices (demeaning, racist, more evil choices - being some of the ideas) or they want to analyze the FR lore, please start a separate thread. It appears you will have plenty of support.

(Just because a citizen wrote a request to the city council for more water fountains in the public parks, doesn't mean suddenly all pet owners should scribble at the bottom of said request that they should be allowed to walk their pets without leashes through said public parks. hug)
I agree with you about being able to call Astarion out as a shorty Race. The opportunity should be there.
And yes, the thread derailed a bit. I'm guilty of that too, since I brought in more examples, where I wanted to call companions out.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
And yes, the thread derailed a bit. I'm guilty of that too, since I brought in more examples, where I wanted to call companions out.

The same goes for me. I am sorry, Neleothesze, that I also digressed from the original topic by writing about adding more dialogue choices for role-playing purposes in general, amongst other things.

So, back on topic:

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
Giving shorty races dialogue choices to react when they are being insulted, dialogue choices which are available in other situations to other races already: Tieflings and Lae'zel, Gith and Shadowheart, all characters in Aradin's, Gale' and Gandrins case, etc.

Yes, I think this should definitely be added, too. I would not like to be "forced" to role-play a gnome/halfling/dwarf character who puts up with everything, just because a dialogue option is missing.I like that with early access, there is a possibility to point out where something has been overlooked.


Originally Posted by Neleothesze
(An argument that doesn't even hold water since you can punch Aradin from patch 1 for spouting similar stuff to Astarion)

Dialogue railroading is an example of bad writing - and unfortunately present in plenty of party-based RPGs, where the main character interacts with key NPCs (either quest relevant or writer's favorites). Said NPCs suddenly gain 'plot armor'/'protagonist halo' for the time it takes to spout some remark without the PC being able to react to it.

Regardless of whether or not you've played a shorty race or ever intend to play a shorty race, please be clear about what you are arguing for. You are not defending your option to 'be evil' or 'conform to the Forgotten Realms' social norms' (that was not in question), you are defending Tav having fewer dialogue choices because it makes Astarion look cool.

I think the range of options as to how our Tav can react should be the same for every NPC or companion. Please no "plot armor", because I think it really limits role-playing possibilities.
Referring to the example with Aradin and Astarion: why should you only have the option to punch Aradin, but not Astarion? I think the option should be there in both cases (and for other characters as well).

Originally Posted by Neleothesze
When you untie the Svirfneblin at the mill, he asks: this is where you try to rob me? He expects it. The player can do it, can pretend ignorance, or not do it. Clear-cut choices which cover the majority of playstyles. up

I like it very much when you have this range of options, so you can choose the option that best fits the way you want to role-play your character.

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