I'd honestly much prefer more consistent shreds of information spread out, with patch notes when new patches come out, than the panels from hell. I've honestly never watched one and never really been interested in doing so. All the information I actually care about is in the patch notes. Granted, that's down to my personal tastes, and plenty of people seem to enjoy the panels, including Larian themselves from what it seems like. So good for them. But I can present an example of a similar early access situation going on right now.
Owlcat is allowing players to pay for access to the alpha version of their upcoming Rogue Traders game. I don't know how much they're communicating directly with those alpha testers, but Owlcat is even now releasing writeups and bits of information about about the setting and characters, concept art and such. I'm not part of the test, but let me tell you, those bits of info are doing doing more to get me interested and excited for that game than I've felt for BG3 since maybe the beginning of EA. Larian could very easily be doing that as well, and I imagine that Rogue Traders and BG3 are going to come out in either roughly the same timeframe, or Rogue Traders is going to come out AFTER BG3, so in terms of marketing, I don't think timelines are too big a factor. Panels from Hell may be big and flashy, but they're not really necessary, and I don't think they're the best way to get information out. I think Larian could probably save a decent chunk of money and time just doing regular livestreams and posting dev diaries every two to four months or something, and they'd probably be able to convey the same amount of information.
Again, I don't think panels from hell are bad, people clearly enjoy them. But I think that the main reason to make such a production of releasing a new patch isn't because it's the best way to convey information, it's to build hype. Yet if that's the goal, then they should be supplementing that with more info given between panels, because whatever hype the panels build inevitably fizzles away in the months of silence. If you want to talk about AAA developers communicating with the fanbase, I'll point you at Bioware. They regularly share profiles of their devs and writers, they boost art and cosplay, and they have little yearly events for N7 day and Dragon Age day that involves a lot of fan engagement. You could argue that much of those things have little substance when it comes to the actual games they're making, but I would argue that they actually have less to share in development terms than Larian does. Oh, and they've also published a book and numerous short stories set in the dragon age universe. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's still an example of devs trying to provide trickles of community engagement and attention.
There seems to be a misconception that since the average time of EA across ALL steam or all games is around 3 years, then 3 years should be an acceptable time for any EA. I am not sure that's how it works. There is no concensus on what the appropriate time to wait on EA is, or what features should be in. You get to decide for yourself if you're interested. It's not "ok or not ok", it just is. And we get to decide if it's acceptable FOS US.
Also, something important, most EA games are run by small companies, indie ones that are not able to sustain full development without EA funds, especially since they are small and understaffed, and that is why you see large development cycles with EA. That doesn't mean that Larian is doing the same, but it does beg a question in the end.
I'm not trying to imply here that Larian is not up to the task. I have full faith they will pull this off. But should they have more staff for something like this? Is it really ok after 2 years+ of EA for a 5e to have classes like Paladin missing, and celebrating the fact that subclasses that are fan favorites like Hexblade and others will not be in the game, "because it's too much work"? We, as consumers practically, are not here to understand why features cannot be in, we are here if we think the offered features are enough. And we do have a right to officially know, what features of 5e content are gonna be in the final release. We have people saying only PHB is in, and others claiming they datamined even Tasha's classes. What is the case? Is there any point of keeping us in the dark?
And we are not here to defend or to attack a company. Never. They are selling a product, plain and simple. Are you buying? Are you ok with it, or do you want something more?
The only thing i can say for now, is that if Larian makes another game in the future, i will not support any kind of EA. I know there is no guarantee about when the game is out, but if you want to convince me that anyone was expecting 2.5years+ of EA for BG3, and that it is acceptable for a company like Larian , you're gonna have to try harder. Either you're willing to defend anything, or you actually think Larian is indeed too small, so more than 2 years is ok, like the small indie studios.
Well ... To be fair, even if we ignore COVID (wich we shouldnt) ... Larian never actualy promised any length of EA as far as i know ... So, basicaly even if it would take two more years ... so what?
There is saying in Czech: Kdo chce psa bÃt, hůl si najde. > Whoever wants to beat a dog will find a stick.
So lets face it, the same amount of people (maybe even the same individuals) who are complainging about legnth of EA would be complaining about something else, if it would be shorter ... Most likely things that would feel rushed, or unfinished.
Dont take me wrong, im also frustrated that we dont get some more often updates (even tho weekly seems kinda extreme) ... or AT THE VERY LEAST some official statement about most commonly repeated topics here (wich is also something we are asking for 2 years, and can be done by litteraly less than 30 minutes) ... Completely agree with PrivateRaccoon ... Larian knew about this event and this topic long enough in advance to just let one of their Community Managers simply write here "nothing planned from our side, calm your horses" ... it would litteraly take 7 seconds of their time. :-/ So i just cant call it anything but an absolute failure. :-/
But even that dont change the fact that EA had its purpose, and its fulfilling it ... sadly we can no longer "try" patch 1 ... thanks to Larian clever housecleaning. -_- But videos are still out there on youtube. Is it long? Yes ... Is it longer than it was supposed to be? No ... Is it longer than it should be? Nobody can say but Swen, and he is not telling ...
Originally Posted by Count Turnipsome
Just randomly added the BG3 logo to forgotten realms pictures to illustrate my point...
All nice images. But if you remember one of first gameplay demo, even before Larian started EA, there was completely different loading screens, wich by the way were actualy Landscapes and Places.
See here, right at the start: (Second set of pictures is at 7:28)
I allways presumed that they decided to switch into curent set of pictures to avoid spoilers. I also think that i hear Swen confrim this somewhere, but dont really know where or if i dont just mess things ... so, dont take this as confrimation please.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/10/2210:15 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Astarion is very popular in you tube videos, but I think most game players dislike him or even hate him, because Astarion is an evil neutral one for corrupting beautiful things in the world.
though I never play evil path, but I do see some people show their video that Astarion gets pleasure from slaying thievings "very much".
why many you tube video makers almost "worship" Astarion?? I can not understand.
As far as the lack of mechanical additions goes, I'd like to remind that for D:OS2 Larian have held back on adding the Summoning/Polymorph skillsets and the entire crafting mechanic up until the later half of EA, which lasted only 1 year in that game's case. And since there are supposed changes to the reaction system coming in, and many unimplemented spells which are there in the code but aren't available without modding yet, it's safe to say that there are still alterations to mechanics to be expected.
At the very least, we are getting difficulty settings. Maybe wizards will be allowed to scribe non-spellbook scrolls only on the lower ones... not that they should be able to do that at all, but if multiclassing makes it into the release (which I am positive it does, it's less about implementation - although, judging by Owlcat's example, you can get all sorts of total level-related bugs if you don't know what the hell you are doing - and more about balancing), then having wizards just have access to every spell in the game, including cantrips which they can somehow scribe too, would eliminate any purpose for mixing spellcasting classes in the first place.
Backlash on Reddit? Haha. That's a forum where anyone even the tiniest bit negative about BG3 gets immediately downvoted and canceled. The one thing I give Larian a HUGE amount of credit for is that they have allowed (even welcomed?) critics of BG3 to voice their views without constraint on this forum, which is pretty much the only place where any BG3 criticism seems to be allowed.
I don't like the PFHs, but it would be a different opinion for me if they were re-purposed. Instead of LARP or whatever events they have planned that never seem to go off without an incident, showcase some of the Origin characters. Tell us about their background and story before the events of BG3.
Show off more of the world you made and maps, as someone mentioned. Show us ideas for art or itemization. Show us footage of features. Or interact with the community in chat with a moderated LIVE Q&A.
Exactly my thoughts. What people actually mean by "more communication" is often "all the finalized game",
Well personally that is not at all what I mean by more communication. I'm fine with the amount of content they've released in EA. What I don't like is the fact that they have for example been totally absent from this forum. Their own forum...created just for this EA title. I've never seen that before from a game developer. Its bizarre to say the least. Some fundamental questions about the game that many EA players have raised (ie day/night/toilet chain/party size) have been met with silence for going on 3 years now.
In any event it is who they are and that won't change.
It's making excellent progress, it's fantastic to see it all come to life behind the scenes We aim to release Baldur's Gate 3 in 2023: We can't wait to put the game between your hands!
That’s good to know, thank you.
I’d ask another question, but I won’t push my luck
Yes, I am not that unhappy with the game (though some directions...yeah), but I would have really liked monthly or perhaps quarterly updates on progress and maybe just maybe a moving projection of release date. And this is not unreasonable, you could say that those of us that bought EA access are somewhat like shareholders (though we don't get any dividends) in letting them use our money to continue with development of the game. I do appreciate that they allow us to be critical, but do not appreciate (as mentioned above by others) the basically absolute silence.
Last edited by dbarron; 11/10/2208:35 PM. Reason: typo correction
I think Larian's communication has been great. They have been doing 3-4 major events a year where they do pretty deep dives into the development, thought processes, etc. I'm not sure what other gaming companies are doing anything even close to the Panel From Hell stuff that Larian is doing.
I think fans of video games have expectations of communication that don't align with reality. Look at any AAA developer - as far as I can tell none of them communicate with their fanbase as much as Larian has, though maybe I am missing one of them.
I don't think anyone in good conscience can say that a handful of announcements/PR events several months apart with nothing but tumbleweed in between can be considered good communication or community engagement. If so, I shudder to think what your idea of good conversation is. Personally I found the Panel from Hell shows cringey. Larian promised us several months ago (maybe even longer?) they would reveal how they interpreted and acted on feedback and still we have heard nothing. That is the epitome of poor communication; make a promise and then don't deliver on it.
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Exactly my thoughts. What people actually mean by "more communication" is often "all the finalized game",
Nonsense, what an utterly bizarre interpretation. I would hazard a guess most people would want to see weekly/monthly tidbits of info, meet the devs, lore, artwork, etc etc etc.
With regard to the sudden appearance of community managers after 2 years of radio silence, it's nothing personal of course but colour me unimpressed that for the most part we're getting a few cheery 'everything is great, can't wait to show you more!' posts. It's hardly insightful stuff.
I don't think anyone in good conscience can say that a handful of announcements/PR events several months apart with nothing but tumbleweed in between can be considered good communication or community engagement. If so, I shudder to think what your idea of good conversation is. Personally I found the Panel from Hell shows cringey. Larian promised us several months ago (maybe even longer?) they would reveal how they interpreted and acted on feedback and still we have heard nothing. That is the epitome of poor communication; make a promise and then don't deliver on it.
Attempting to equate having a conversation with someone with how a video game developer communicates with its customers tells me about all that I need to know.
Yeah, this EA has not had the consistent communication/feedback seen in others I've participated in. Perhaps other people have low expectations in this regard, but having been through EA's like Owlcat's and the Solasta team's, I have been very disappointed with BG3's. The PFH are just showy extravaganzas; I watched the first and then skipped the rest and just read a summary. Recently things have been very quiet and I have no sense that the coversations/'debates raging here (on the official forums) are even registering. Guess we'll see when the game launches.
Reading last few posts ... I think we can agree that many (and no i will not be draged into conversation about how many) of us finds Larian comunication inadequate ...
But we (myslef included) were whining about it for two years by now ... isnt about time to accept that Larian either ignore our pleeds or simply dont care at all?
Not a topic to debate ... just something to think about.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Attempting to equate having a conversation with someone with how a video game developer communicates with its customers tells me about all that I need to know.
And ending a smart arse reply with an emoji tells me all I need to know. What is your point exactly?
Pretty much all the backlash is in the Steam forums, where some users are in a crusade to whine as loud and often as possible in the hope it will speed up development. Unfortunately for Larian, they seem to live in a parallel universe where Covid wasn't a thing and buying an early access game guarantee a release in the following months.
I see Covid being referred to a lot here and elsewhere in Larian’s defence - how does this explain the length of time EA has taken? Genuine question. I get supply chain issues for manufacturers but in this case?
Personally, I think the EA experience has been poor because firstly there has been almost no acknowledgement of feedback on, or communication relating to, key issues that are raised almost universally (toilet chain, party size, random changes to core rules etc). Secondly, the anchor on which they set timing expectations was one year - sure they gave themselves latitude with the language they used, “about a year†or “at least a year†and I get that - but circa 3 years by the time it releases is underperforming their own benchmark. And they’ve done almost nothing to manage expectations in the interim.
Pretty much all the backlash is in the Steam forums, where some users are in a crusade to whine as loud and often as possible in the hope it will speed up development. Unfortunately for Larian, they seem to live in a parallel universe where Covid wasn't a thing and buying an early access game guarantee a release in the following months.
I see Covid being referred to a lot here and elsewhere in Larian’s defence - how does this explain the length of time EA has taken? Genuine question. I get supply chain issues for manufacturers but in this case?
People with office jobs got to (or were forced to) work from home and that, I know from experience, is a nightmare. When you are used to work in a group and have free access to all the teammates and resources a sudden shift to remote work forces a change of schedule.
The odds that your feedback is being listened to this late into development is... slim to none, at least for release. Based on the improvements to visuals, cinematics, etc. they are in the stages of polishing the game and finalizing everything. Odds are systems are pretty much set in stone and won't be changing in any kind of significant way until the game launches. The game has been in development for like five years and in Early Access for over two now, with tons of feedback coming from the same content in the game. I imagine Larian will be reviewing feedback upon full launch of the game and implementing it with patches moving forward after the entire community is participating.
The above is as true as what was stated earlier in the thread that two years of Early Access is not something to be celebrated or published as a great feat or something like that. You can look at feedback on Reddit, Twitter, etc. around the topic to see large swathes of the community see it as a negative as opposed to a positive.
I had hoped the long delay in communication was that Larian had decided to focus on trying to iron out the reaction system and to get the last bit of the systems that needed work finished before saying they are moving into final development.
But, this kind of message suggests to me that this is more likely not to be true, which saddens me, along with many others here, I think.
The odds that your feedback is being listened to this late into development is... slim to none, at least for release. Based on the improvements to visuals, cinematics, etc. they are in the stages of polishing the game and finalizing everything. Odds are systems are pretty much set in stone and won't be changing in any kind of significant way until the game launches. The game has been in development for like five years and in Early Access for over two now, with tons of feedback coming from the same content in the game. I imagine Larian will be reviewing feedback upon full launch of the game and implementing it with patches moving forward after the entire community is participating.
The above is as true as what was stated earlier in the thread that two years of Early Access is not something to be celebrated or published as a great feat or something like that. You can look at feedback on Reddit, Twitter, etc. around the topic to see large swathes of the community see it as a negative as opposed to a positive.
I had hoped the long delay in communication was that Larian had decided to focus on trying to iron out the reaction system and to get the last bit of the systems that needed work finished before saying they are moving into final development.
But, this kind of message suggests to me that this is more likely not to be true, which saddens me, along with many others here, I think.
I guess all we can do is wait and see.
As the person who wrote that message...
I wouldn't say that there won't be a change to the reaction system and stuff like that. Just that if it is in the game it is likely already done and decided on - feedback now isn't going to impact how they reforge something like the reaction system.
There has been a 32 pages thread about reactions, and several others scattered in this forum. At this point every single feedback about reactions has been already made.
