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#825773 07/08/22 06:32 PM
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Although it makes the game easier; I find it ODD just how stupid many NPC are during combat. As long as my party is stealthy or invisible or such, then NPCs will happily stand in the middle of just about any AoE I lay down even w/o me using any kind of crowd control. Here is a perfect example I recorded:

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Using stealth right now is a little broken, especially during a combat turn. Entering stealth leaves a little circle of light around where you succeeded hiding, I thought that little highlight would factor more into the AI's decision making but so far, not so much.

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Every enemy runs through Fire and Cloud of Daggers to get to you. Very easy to abuse that AI.

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Unfortunatly stealth is a mechanic that I just don't like at the moment:

1) stealthed creates don't for some reason join into combat and roll initiative which make it at the very least awkward, with some serious potential to abuse

3) An ability to just sneak right behind anyone with no specialisation in stealth is silly. Considering how much stealth relies on vision cones, and how difficlult it is to figure out which parts of the enviroment are lit and not, I personally find it very difficult to take advantage of steath skill - avoding vision cones seem to be the way to go. Perhaps, stealth will get more powerful as characters lvl up and get better in it.

4) As OP showed, stealth is easily abusable in combat, due to it's low cost, and AI inability to react. For the "if you don't like it, don't use it" crowd - yeah, I don't, but I can't figure out a way to use stealth that wouldn't feel like cheating. At the moment it is just not a well implemented mechanic IMO.

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Stealth is really a mess - they should be actively searching for a source of the damage (unless they truly are mindless creatures). The way you can also phase into stealth, move, always attack with surprise, exactly know where pixel-precise vision cones are etc is silly. Creatures should be allowed a perception roll (using all their senses - and some have super-keen senses) to locate either approximately or quite accuately where you are. This really means many encounters can be cheesed, which is sad.

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The most grating part of the current state of stealth is that these aren't even "unintended bugs" and Larian is *deliberately* choosing to not address this problem because of their school of thought "Exploiting broken things is a blast for the player, so we are leaving them in on purpose".

Last edited by Tuco; 07/08/22 08:02 PM.
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It is odd how in some cases an NPC WILL head to where they last saw someone who goes stealth and in other cases just stand around saying 'you can't hide from me'. Yeah, stealth really needs some work (granted, as I said earlier, it DOES make things easier O_o)

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AI is dumb.

Use Hunter Mark then attack a different target.
Draw Attack of Opportunity for no reason just to run back.
Cast Witch Bolt but never activate it.
Use Sleep spam on immune target.
Run through AoEs like Moonbeam, Cloud of Daggers.
Push others into AoEs.

And so much more.

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Your forgetting we are playing on standard game difficulty. On tactician the AI plays brutally and precisely. If you don’t believe that go and play one of their older games. Try to beat tactician properly without abusing mechanics. The AI will butcher you. So just wait until EA is done. I doubt you will complain on full release.

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If a game plays in patently stupid and illogical ways as a means of portraying the standard difficulty, that's *Bad Design*.
If a game is functionally unbeatable without unrealistic exploits, foreknowledge and breaking game mechanics, or breaking the AI itself, on the harder difficulty, that's also *Bad Design*.

Holding up the *Bad Design* of their previous games is not a good way to suggest that they will improve on this one - all signs point to the contrary, in fact. It's not an argument in the game's favour.

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Is there any proof, may be a post or a video where they say that kind of thing?

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If you're asking about Larian's love of bugs and exploiting the game as tactic, they illustrate this philosophy and comment on it consistently throughout their public showcases - take a watch through the gameplay sections of the various panel from hell shows to see it first hand. It's mostly Swen himself, but his philosophy of fun seems to have been the guiding hand in most of the game design that has resulted.

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Nah, I am asking about if there was an official statement that those bugs won't be adressed. Because one thing is our perception of things (but how do we expect a game lead to react on stream? Of course he won't be all dramatic about it smile ) and the other thing is if they actually made a statement on the part. If I am not mistaken, 2 patches ago enemies were not able to seek for the place where you stealthed at all. Now they can do it, so I suppose this mechanic is being developed and worked on.

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Is there any proof, may be a post or a video where they say that kind of thing?
There is video from some older dunnowhat-con where Swen is talking about exploits being in game purposefully ...
Is that what you mean?


In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
“If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. And if you got caught you didn’t try hard enough!”
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Yeah, that kind of thing. Would be interesting to look at, if someone might have a link

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It’s the post-mortem of DOS 2 he made for GDC if you want to search for it yourself.

I’m not currently at my PC so I don’t have a link at hand.

The whole thing is worth a watch (for better or worse) but the part I’m referring to right now is in the final Q & A.

Someone asks him why some blatant exploits in the two DOS haven’t been addressed and his take is pretty much “We did it on purpose because thee player feels super-clever when he can break the game”.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/08/22 07:38 AM.
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I couldn't disagree more with Larian's philosophy that breaking the game is fun. It's cheating and it feels terrible to win that way. It also feels terrible not using the exploit when you know it's there as a part of the rules you've been given.

Then there's a lot of grey area in exploiting the AI. Like retreating and forcing them to suicide into hazards. Or kiting and shooting with Bonus Action Dash.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I couldn't disagree more with Larian's philosophy that breaking the game is fun. It's cheating and it feels terrible to win that way. It also feels terrible not using the exploit when you know it's there as a part of the rules you've been given.

Then there's a lot of grey area in exploiting the AI. Like retreating and forcing them to suicide into hazards. Or kiting and shooting with Bonus Action Dash.
Not that this isn't something that wasn't already discussed for months if not even years, but...

We just had a returning user in another thread summarizing this topic excellently, so I'll just quote him:

Originally Posted by grysqrl
A general comment about playtesting games:
-It is the job of the designer and/or developer to create a set of rules and then pose a problem to the playtester.
-It is the job of the playtester to try anything and everything allowed within those rules to try to solve the problem and then report on what happened. This helps the designer to understand what is working well and what isn't.
-"I found this thing that you can do (or are incentivized to do, because it's good at solving the problem) and it feels bad" is useful feedback. A good designer should be trying to avoid situations that make their players feel bad.
-Telling people that their feelings are invalid because they can choose to not do that thing isn't helpful. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing and giving feedback on it.

My feelings with regards to exploits:
Combats in this game (from what I've seen) are pretty simple - if you want to progress in the game, you have to win the fight. There is no notion of failing forward; if you lose the fight, you die and have to load an old save. Therefore, winning the fight is paramount and it is expected to do anything that you can within the rules to kill your enemies. If I find a tactic like this that works, but feels like cheating, it makes me think less of the game. It isn't fun to be torn between progressing the story and feeling like you are exploiting an oversight in the rules. If winning at any cost weren't ingrained into the structure of the game, it would feel less necessary to rely on exploits. But stumbling on a tactic that works, even if it feels bad, usually means that I'm not searching for better tactics to use - a local maximum is often good enough. That's not fun. It's easy to say "just don't use that exploit," but I want to feel like I'm struggling to solve the problem, not holding back because an obvious answer feels like cheating.

My feelings on a larger, related issue:
Like many of the other exploits that have been pointed out in the past (e.g. bonus action projectile shove, hide shenanigans, attack advantage from height, etc.), this is an exploit that (nearly) every character can take advantage of. Some of the most powerful things in the game have nothing to do with the choices you've made about your character. Class features are severely diminished in the face of a toolbox of exploits that anyone can use. I want my character to feel powerful. I want to feel like the choices that I've made about how my character grows are important. But time and again it seems like my character is overshadowed by what pieces of fancy gear they have collected and how good I am at flogging the same loopholes in the rules over and over again. It feels really bad and makes me not want to play the game. I really don't care about how pretty the graphics are or how many voiceover options I can choose from if the gameplay feels bad.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Someone asks him why some blatant exploits in the two DOS haven’t been addressed and his take is pretty much “We did it on purpose because thee player feels super-clever when he can break the game”.
Which, as a principle is fine, but for my taste the game breaks a bit too easy. It's one thing to figure out an OP combination, and the other for common abilities be OP when used.

I do hope that this is something Larian will fix in the polishing stage but having previous experience with their titles I don't take it as a certainty.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/08/22 12:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Tuco
Someone asks him why some blatant exploits in the two DOS haven’t been addressed and his take is pretty much “We did it on purpose because thee player feels super-clever when he can break the game”.
Which, as a principle is fine, but for my taste the game breaks a bit too easy. It's one thing to figure out an OP combination, and the other for common abilities be OP when used.

I do hope that this is something Larian will fix in the polishing stage but having previous experience with their titles I don't take it as a certainty.

Few things from me regarding how combat feels right now in the light of the above post quoted by Tuco:

1)Compared to 1st EA release combat feels faster, smoother, better in every possible way after me. Maybe some of you didn't realize it if you replayed the game each patch for instance. But the difference is 100% palpable if you didn't.

2) Despite #1 what Tuco quoted above is 100% accurate. If the solution is obvious it's not a question of me "choosing my way to play". It just makes the game feel weird. And I have to mention Shove being a bonus action here. Most fights in Act 1 ( especially in the underdark) feel way too easy because of shove(drow encounter) . Like I feel 100% guilty If I use it. I got to a point where I stopped using it to lower my party DPS. But the thing is ...I can use it.
So I deliberately choose to complicate my own life. Meanwhile I want to feel like I'm overcoming a challenge.

OR...make enemies harder to shove? OR the AI maybe can identify " fall threat areas" and avoid it as long as it's not the only way ? In this case shoving someone down a pit would actually feel gratifying instead of being granted.

3) OP example for " AI stupidity" highlights an issue with enemies capabilities to detect combat. And that's an issue I encountered at least a couple times ( Goblin camp, above-mentioned ogres, bulette engaging a character next to her + a character 25 meters away from her but a character 15 meters away wasn't in the fight despite not being in stealth. It was Gale. He could just run around her and she would 100% ignore him).

Dealing damage to an enemy == Start turn mode + combat mode for enemies. If stealth check succeed start search of player party in the damage source area. It's just necessary. I had a case of an enemy getting hit by a level 2 spell slot and healing to full because he didn't know he was in a fight. Super frustrating. Adios my little spell slot.

Last edited by virion; 09/08/22 02:23 PM.

Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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