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Ok, this is one of my biggest issues with this game. I understand it's still in development and if it's planning on getting changed then cool. However why is the UI getting worked on more than one of the core gameplay mechanics. Why is taking a reaction like an "attack of opportunity" a passive? A reaction in D&D 5E is a seperate action that a player has the option to use. Like with the spell "counter spell" you could choose to try and counter an enemy casting a spell or you could let them cast it in favor of taking the "attack of opportunity" if you think an enemy will move out of your melee range.

I'm a huge fan of the OG baldur's gate games and a huge fan of D&D. I know the rules for 5E quite well. Making the reactions work like this is taking away a huge part of gameplay. The way this game is doing reaction makes absolutly zero sense. I just redownloaded it and started a new game. First thing I checked was to see if that was changed. Nope still a dumb passive that you have no control over. Just toggle it on/off. I already want to uninstall it just for that.

Does anyone know if they are at least planning on changing it to the way it actually works in 5E or the better game Solasta? Because if they are not going to change reactions then I'm uninstalling and never touching this game again.

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They said they are experimenting with reworks for the reactions, so yes they're planning to do something about them.

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I belive half off DoS 2 players don't know what reactions even are, so it whatever?:) and attack of opportunity works fine without reaction. Problem stats when they add other stuff that share the same spot.

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It would make complete sense reworking reactions.
On a broader note...Checking this forum, aspects of the game that have changed or have not...It seems that the target audience is neither D&D fans nor Baldur's gate fans lol!?! But they go WAY out of their way to make sure everyone knows this is indead D&D and Baldur's gate...
I am so confused! For who is this game intended for?

Last edited by Count Turnipsome; 18/10/22 07:22 AM.

It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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the audience is Wizards of the Coast and not everyone thinks reactions are the most important thing because that rule is for pen and paper not computer

i'd like to see them work on basic stuff like path finding, spell description or network stability because those things stop people from playing


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Originally Posted by Count Turnipsome
It would make complete sense reworking reactions.
On a broader note...Checking this forum, aspects of the game that have changed or have not...It seems that the target audience is neither D&D fans nor Baldur's gate fans lol!?! But they go WAY out of their way to make sure everyone knows this is indead D&D and Baldur's gate...
I am so confused! For who is this game intended for?

Judging by the SteamSpy number of owner and the percentage of positive review on Steam, its target audience is currently composed of around 2 millions players. I think some people here are completly overblowing how much your everyday player care about reactions. Not that it shouldn't be improved, but you know, not a dealbreaker for most to say the least.

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The core issue is the realization i think. IRL you can just say "i want to use my reaction... ", while in a digital game it is not so simple. Well, it is simple to implement in active pause real-time combat like the old dnd games, but not in the turn-based one. The pop-ups is a bad option, because you'll play a " Close a dozens reaction pop-ups until right one" game and not the "real" one. Maybe there's a solution to make reactions work more.. "natural" in turn-based combat system, but i personally dont know how.

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It is a big issue, it is a major design flaw, and no it is not being overblown; Divinity players are not the only audience here, and indeed, given Swen's own comments they aren't even the target audience, since from Swen's own mouth their goal here is to leverage the fan bases of D&d and the Baldur's Gate name as people to draw in and foist their particular style of game-play and design onto - they want to use this to pimp their brand, not sell to their existing fans, and not to do justice or give respect to the existing franchises and IPs they're using to do it.

They've said for a long time that a rework is coming - but for more than a year now we've seen neither hide nor hair of it.

It Is ridiculous that they've fussed over the UI and over cleaning up tooltips (poorly and ineffectively), without getting the reworks of major systems processed through and tested for so long. It's a legitimate worry, at this point.

Yes; reactions are an incredibly important part of the 5e D&D system - neglecting it is critical, as is leaving it in its present state; players need proper control of their reactions, it's absolutely vital. At least, it is, if Larian intend to actually deliver any kind of system that could legitimately call itself a 5e rule system... which is what they've advertised and sold copies based on the hype for, a long with the Baldur's Gate name. They've advertised that they want their game to be the definitive 5e d&d video game... they've literally said as much, so claims that they didn't 'promise' to make it 5e are deflecting and spurious at best; their advertised intent was clear, and their actual practice and design intent so far does not line up with what they sold copies based upon.

The other game uses a direct prompt system to implement an almost accurate and spiritually faithful reaction system that works very well - it doesn't slow down gameplay, players are not drowned in prompts, and it's very smooth; videos of this have been posted numerous times, and the defenders continue to ignore them and repeat their tired old false arguments. It works fine in a turn based system; 5e is ideal for translation into video game format, in fact, needing only a few quality of life and transitional alterations and tweaks, as the other game neatly demonstrates.

You are right, OP, this is a major issue.

I'd encourage you to submit feedback to Larian reflecting your sentiment on this score, if you can spare the time and effort; you can use this link: Feedback

Last edited by Niara; 18/10/22 09:47 AM.
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The funny thing is that even the Other Game did this:
"On top of that Cutting Words has been buffed in <Game_Name>: the targeted enemy decreases all its ability checks, attack and damage rolls by the value of the Bardic Inspiration die until the start of the Bard's next turn. This was done to avoid having pop-ups interrupting the game every time the enemy did something during their turn."

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I do not blindly protect a current reaction design tho, i want it to be better and closer to the true one, but wondering if there is a solution that doesnt ruin other aspects of combat.

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First of all it was intentional change, not temporary implementation. Back in early pre-release interview with Rock Paper Shotgun Larian’s system designer used reaction as an example of a system they are changing as literal adaptation “wouldn’t feel good in a computer game”.

As others have mentioned it’s been confirmed by Larian that they are working on changes to the reactions but how extensive those changes might be is anyones guess. Hopefully we will get to see them in the next patch.

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I said this before and I will say again, that I personally hate reactions and found them tedious and boring in all games I played. The only game that was an exception was Xcom2 because they where entirely automated. It is impossible to know how many players support reactions vs those who oppose them.

However, none of the games ever made by Larian have had reactions. Not once that I can remember. Their main flagship is DOS which most players will come from. Because of it, the expectations are different. You are not the target audience. Players like me are, who care more about a cohesive story, good visuals, and moderate complex gameplay- BG3 emphasis is not combat.

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Reactions are an important part of 5E's action economy. Not implementing them has had increasing knock on effects as more and more content has been implemented. Like or not Solasta proved implementing them as interruptions to enemy turns doesn't really slow down the pace of combat too much. And some of the consequence of not having reactions make no sense at all (like removing Disonant Whispers' forced movement). Or being a major nerf to wizard survivability by removing shield. There absolutely is room for automation to streamline out some potential clunk, but those are more of the exceptions than the norm, for the most part it's over-aggressive streamlining.

Originally Posted by Hichigo
The funny thing is that even the Other Game did this:
"On top of that Cutting Words has been buffed in <Game_Name>: the targeted enemy decreases all its ability checks, attack and damage rolls by the value of the Bardic Inspiration die until the start of the Bard's next turn. This was done to avoid having pop-ups interrupting the game every time the enemy did something during their turn."

This is pretty much BG3's existing implementation and remains a fairly hefty nerf. The problem is that you have to pre-spend both resources (reaction and inspiration) to target a specific enemy and there's a high chance that no role that enemy makes will have a degree of success that would even make it possible to turn a success into a failure. Though it's no where near as pathological as BG3's implementation of Bardic Inspiration on that front in that at least it's multiple roles and the way bounded accuracy works hits with a degree of success of 1 to n are going to be more common than misses with a degree of failure of 1 to n. Fundamentally it's that it targets an enemy rather than being all enemies. Personally I suspect that thinning it down to only applying to roles it could change would cut the frequency of the reaction enough, that's essentially the One D&D's fix in the current play test. If not then automating it being a stance and applying to the first applicable role, even just giving the option to skip each ability check as they are fairly rare. Or even just refunding the inspiration if there is no viable role would make it a less savage nerf.

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Originally Posted by AusarViled
I said this before and I will say again, that I personally hate reactions and found them tedious and boring in all games I played. The only game that was an exception was Xcom2 because they where entirely automated. It is impossible to know how many players support reactions vs those who oppose them.

However, none of the games ever made by Larian have had reactions. Not once that I can remember. Their main flagship is DOS which most players will come from. Because of it, the expectations are different. You are not the target audience. Players like me are, who care more about a cohesive story, good visuals, and moderate complex gameplay- BG3 emphasis is not combat.

Sorry, I must feed the troll....

Wow, incredibly arrogant post - what data do you have to back up your assertion? I played DOS1/2 (and other Larian games) - But I did *not* buy BG3 because of those games, I bought it for the purportedly 'definitive' adaptation of 5E rules - it was billed as a 5E D&D game - and the BG name and all that entails. That has nothing to do with divinity games at all - I enjoyed those, but I do not want another divinty game. As others have pointed out so many times before, it is possible to have an option for those who are concerned that reaction popups will ruin their 'real-time' turn-based experience. Or they could be innovative and do something better than Solastas. As it stands there are just vague suggestions that something else will come along. I am not convinced.

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Originally Posted by Niara
It is a big issue, it is a major design flaw, and no it is not being overblown; Divinity players are not the only audience here, and indeed, given Swen's own comments they aren't even the target audience, since from Swen's own mouth their goal here is to leverage the fan bases of D&d and the Baldur's Gate name as people to draw in and foist their particular style of game-play and design onto - they want to use this to pimp their brand, not sell to their existing fans, and not to do justice or give respect to the existing franchises and IPs they're using to do it.

They've said for a long time that a rework is coming - but for more than a year now we've seen neither hide nor hair of it.

It Is ridiculous that they've fussed over the UI and over cleaning up tooltips (poorly and ineffectively), without getting the reworks of major systems processed through and tested for so long. It's a legitimate worry, at this point.

Yes; reactions are an incredibly important part of the 5e D&D system - neglecting it is critical, as is leaving it in its present state; players need proper control of their reactions, it's absolutely vital. At least, it is, if Larian intend to actually deliver any kind of system that could legitimately call itself a 5e rule system... which is what they've advertised and sold copies based on the hype for, a long with the Baldur's Gate name. They've advertised that they want their game to be the definitive 5e d&d video game... they've literally said as much, so claims that they didn't 'promise' to make it 5e are deflecting and spurious at best; their advertised intent was clear, and their actual practice and design intent so far does not line up with what they sold copies based upon.

The other game uses a direct prompt system to implement an almost accurate and spiritually faithful reaction system that works very well - it doesn't slow down gameplay, players are not drowned in prompts, and it's very smooth; videos of this have been posted numerous times, and the defenders continue to ignore them and repeat their tired old false arguments. It works fine in a turn based system; 5e is ideal for translation into video game format, in fact, needing only a few quality of life and transitional alterations and tweaks, as the other game neatly demonstrates.

You are right, OP, this is a major issue.

I'd encourage you to submit feedback to Larian reflecting your sentiment on this score, if you can spare the time and effort; you can use this link: Feedback


+1 for both the viewpoint and working in "hide nor hair"

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Originally Posted by Giathan
Because if they are not going to change reactions then I'm uninstalling and never touching this game again.
I understand the sentiment, and support it, but ignoring classes built around reactions would be enough for me to get something out of BG3.

Originally Posted by AusarViled
BG3 emphasis is not combat.
I'm not so sure. Combat is the one thing players can do to any NPC (some NPCs can't be spoken to). It's also the only unskippable activity, the main source of experience points, the primary focus of level ups. If BG3's emphasis isn't combat, Larian need to make changes to reflect that.

Originally Posted by Niara
The other game
Just finished main campaign and DLC, and now we can't say its name? Rotten timing...


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It's not that you can't, it's just that it often seems to stir up certain trolls when you do, for some reason, so I just avoid kicking the hive.

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Seriously …uninstall the game because reactions aren’t quite right ? Such an over reaction …this game is coming along fine they are working on reactions apparently - but if it doesn’t change the games positives so far outweigh any negatives to drop out over one part - man your going to have a hard time playing any d&d game as none are perfect.

Saw another odd comment on who is this game intended for …anyone who says this game isn’t d&d hasn’t played d&d - is it exactly rule perfect ..no I get that, but as a computer game version it’s amazing and still in early access - with the money Larian are throwing at this game of course there are financial considerations so the audience targeted will be broader - that’s just the business reality.

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Originally Posted by Tarorn
…anyone who says this game isn’t d&d hasn’t played d&d

I play a lot of D&D; I've played a lot of D&D video games too. BG3 does not feel like playing a D&D game to me, at the moment, especially not a 5e D&d game, which, considering they advertised themselves as wanting to be the definitive game representing 5e in video games... is a rather shockingly abject failure so far. A game company with far less money to throw at their game has already made a game that captures that feeling infinitely better. Larian should be beating them in the story-telling and characterisation front, since that other games falls down there... and yet, the forced-characterisation that they plaster over your character at every turn, taking the roleplay out of your hands and not giving you the freedom to define yourself, because they've *Already Decided* what sort of character "you" are, and make your character act that way on the regular... no, they've failed, as it stands, and failed badly, unless it changes.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Tarorn
…anyone who says this game isn’t d&d hasn’t played d&d

I play a lot of D&D; I've played a lot of D&D video games too. BG3 does not feel like playing a D&D game to me, at the moment, especially not a 5e D&d game, which, considering they advertised themselves as wanting to be the definitive game representing 5e in video games... is a rather shockingly abject failure so far. A game company with far less money to throw at their game has already made a game that captures that feeling infinitely better. Larian should be beating them in the story-telling and characterisation front, since that other games falls down there... and yet, the forced-characterisation that they plaster over your character at every turn, taking the roleplay out of your hands and not giving you the freedom to define yourself, because they've *Already Decided* what sort of character "you" are, and make your character act that way on the regular... no, they've failed, as it stands, and failed badly, unless it changes.
I regret to inform you this "shockingly abject failure" will likely not get better for you in those few last months of development. You may as well switch your interest to another game now.

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