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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Is it reimagening of D:OS2 in a D&D IP? Perhaps, but we will need to see more to judge that.
Based on what we've seen so far, that would probably be the closest, yes.

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Originally Posted by RutgerF
The rest is problematic, due to the engine (probably being a Gordian knot made of glass at this point).
Perfect.

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Originally Posted by Niara
We begin having been taken onto a ship against our will,
We break out amidst unexpected confusion, and get our bearings.
Oh no, the ship is under attack!
We play witness to several entities far more powerful than us flexing their powers as we try to escape.
During the escape we are thrown clear of the foundering ship.
We are saved from certain death by some other powerful force deus-ex-machina preserving us.
We wake up on a beach and, one by one have the option of re-introducing to our companions, who were also on the ship and who also miraculously survived.
Of note, the rogue with a tortured past of slavery greets us by putting a knife to our throat... classy.
There's also a trained soldier who swears loyalty to their queen first and foremost, and won't her a bad thing about her,
And a mage with a dry and snarky wit but a somewhat superior way of talking,
And a woman who keeps her secrets, but has a mysterious connection to some other power, not like the one we all share,
And one who speaks incredibly highly of himself and puts on airs about his greatness - his current situation is largely a result of consorting with fiends.
Our companions and us all have the same 'othering' special power source in common, and will be reviled and hunted for it.
We soon discover that, indeed, there is a powerful organisation hunting us - and us specifically, it seems.
Meanwhile, other powerful entities speak to us in our dreams offering us power and/or solutions, if we do as they want.

.... Aaaand that's the intro to D:0S2. Want to hear the salient intro beats to BG3?

Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Krom
Originally Posted by Niara
We begin having been taken onto a ship against our will,
We break out amidst unexpected confusion, and get our bearings.
Oh no, the ship is under attack!
We play witness to several entities far more powerful than us flexing their powers as we try to escape.
During the escape we are thrown clear of the foundering ship.
We are saved from certain death by some other powerful force deus-ex-machina preserving us.
We wake up on a beach and, one by one have the option of re-introducing to our companions, who were also on the ship and who also miraculously survived.
Of note, the rogue with a tortured past of slavery greets us by putting a knife to our throat... classy.
There's also a trained soldier who swears loyalty to their queen first and foremost, and won't her a bad thing about her,
And a mage with a dry and snarky wit but a somewhat superior way of talking,
And a woman who keeps her secrets, but has a mysterious connection to some other power, not like the one we all share,
And one who speaks incredibly highly of himself and puts on airs about his greatness - his current situation is largely a result of consorting with fiends.
Our companions and us all have the same 'othering' special power source in common, and will be reviled and hunted for it.
We soon discover that, indeed, there is a powerful organisation hunting us - and us specifically, it seems.
Meanwhile, other powerful entities speak to us in our dreams offering us power and/or solutions, if we do as they want.

.... Aaaand that's the intro to D:0S2. Want to hear the salient intro beats to BG3?

Pretty much this.

Yup. And that isn't to say it is necessarily bad.

It's just very obvious that the story so far is very similar to the point where it is almost a retelling of D:OS2 with a completely different skin. Which to me is fine, the game just isn't going to be getting any points for being original unless it deviates. Also - we haven't been introduced to all of the companions yet and maybe these were just the ones they were playing it "safe" with and reusing some ideas they had in the past... and maybe that is why they were included in EA.

I also think BG3 is going to reach significantly more people than D:OS2 - so perhaps that is the reason for recycling it. They had a formula that works and they don't want to mess up the first enormous release they have as a game studio.

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They can use whatever cliche or story hook that "works" as they want.

As long as they avoid the same mistakes of DOS2. Thus they need to:

- Have a unique story backround for Tav that does NOT happen when you play as other origin characters, and at least as heavy and impressive.

- Avoid NPC only armors, especially those that look even cooler than whatever the character can wear. That also includes options available to NPCs like body types similar to Halsin's. If only NPCs can have it, even origin characters but not our Tav, then it's a bad design decision.

- Avoid this trend with npcs full armored and equipped with anything they throw at you, only leaving a shortsword or whatever for loot. If they have it, they should drop it. Period. EA is already guilty of this.

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Originally Posted by Niara
We begin having been taken onto a ship against our will,
We break out amidst unexpected confusion, and get our bearings.
Oh no, the ship is under attack!
We play witness to several entities far more powerful than us flexing their powers as we try to escape.
During the escape we are thrown clear of the foundering ship.
We are saved from certain death by some other powerful force deus-ex-machina preserving us.
We wake up on a beach and, one by one have the option of re-introducing to our companions, who were also on the ship and who also miraculously survived.
Of note, the rogue with a tortured past of slavery greets us by putting a knife to our throat... classy.
There's also a trained soldier who swears loyalty to their queen first and foremost, and won't her a bad thing about her,
And a mage with a dry and snarky wit but a somewhat superior way of talking,
And a woman who keeps her secrets, but has a mysterious connection to some other power, not like the one we all share,
And one who speaks incredibly highly of himself and puts on airs about his greatness - his current situation is largely a result of consorting with fiends.
Our companions and us all have the same 'othering' special power source in common, and will be reviled and hunted for it.
We soon discover that, indeed, there is a powerful organisation hunting us - and us specifically, it seems.
Meanwhile, other powerful entities speak to us in our dreams offering us power and/or solutions, if we do as they want.

.... Aaaand that's the intro to D:0S2. Want to hear the salient intro beats to BG3?

this made me laugh. At least The Elder Scrolls just does the 'you're a prisoner' thing, but diverges immediately from there. This is..wow

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I guess people will lose their minds once Tarquin appears in BG3, either by being an actual NPC or as a cameo.

For those who are unaware, Tarquin is a highly skilled Necromancer and a Scholar in DOS2 who at the end of the game drops a massive exposition about Baldur's Gate, by first referencing a mysterious language known as "Gustavschen", which at the time was a code name for Baldur's Gate 3. And then also mentioning beings that ride dragons and beings that consume minds. And apparently Rivellon no longer holds anything challenging for him, so he vanishes from the world in the epilogue, thus confirming that he actually did manage to enter Faerun grin

I totally expect to see him in Baldur's Gate.

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I 100% expect to see Tarquin, yes... That's the kind of 'hat tip to our own game series' that I don't mind and can appreciate; that's good form, as long as it remains a side-npc without direct impact on the story, which I expect a character like Tarquin to do.

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You might not realize is right away but at some point during bg3 EA it will dawn on you that you are just playing reskinned dos2 with broken or unfinished dnd mechanics tossed in.

I liked dos2 so i guess it could be worse but i also have hopes for the rest of the game to deviate from the Larian formula. I have some faith but we shall see.

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Originally Posted by Crimsomrider
I guess people will lose their minds once Tarquin appears in BG3, either by being an actual NPC or as a cameo.

For those who are unaware, Tarquin is a highly skilled Necromancer and a Scholar in DOS2 who at the end of the game drops a massive exposition about Baldur's Gate, by first referencing a mysterious language known as "Gustavschen", which at the time was a code name for Baldur's Gate 3. And then also mentioning beings that ride dragons and beings that consume minds. And apparently Rivellon no longer holds anything challenging for him, so he vanishes from the world in the epilogue, thus confirming that he actually did manage to enter Faerun grin

I totally expect to see him in Baldur's Gate.
That would be a new low.

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Originally Posted by Alexlotr
Originally Posted by Crimsomrider
I guess people will lose their minds once Tarquin appears in BG3, either by being an actual NPC or as a cameo.

For those who are unaware, Tarquin is a highly skilled Necromancer and a Scholar in DOS2 who at the end of the game drops a massive exposition about Baldur's Gate, by first referencing a mysterious language known as "Gustavschen", which at the time was a code name for Baldur's Gate 3. And then also mentioning beings that ride dragons and beings that consume minds. And apparently Rivellon no longer holds anything challenging for him, so he vanishes from the world in the epilogue, thus confirming that he actually did manage to enter Faerun grin

I totally expect to see him in Baldur's Gate.
That would be a new low.

Baldur's Gate had a character literally named "Lord Foreshadow" that hinted at future properties planned by Black Isle. This sort of thing is very much in line with the history of this franchise. As long as Tarquin plays no more than a bit roll it will be fine.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by Alexlotr
Originally Posted by Crimsomrider
I guess people will lose their minds once Tarquin appears in BG3, either by being an actual NPC or as a cameo.

For those who are unaware, Tarquin is a highly skilled Necromancer and a Scholar in DOS2 who at the end of the game drops a massive exposition about Baldur's Gate, by first referencing a mysterious language known as "Gustavschen", which at the time was a code name for Baldur's Gate 3. And then also mentioning beings that ride dragons and beings that consume minds. And apparently Rivellon no longer holds anything challenging for him, so he vanishes from the world in the epilogue, thus confirming that he actually did manage to enter Faerun grin

I totally expect to see him in Baldur's Gate.
That would be a new low.

Baldur's Gate had a character literally named "Lord Foreshadow" that hinted at future properties planned by Black Isle. This sort of thing is very much in line with the history of this franchise. As long as Tarquin plays no more than a bit roll it will be fine.
How is it the same? Lord Foreshadow was not part of any other ip. They just introduced a character who vaguely talked about future (of the same world). Including Tarquin in BG3 is the same as putting Liara from Mass Effect or Kane from C&C or G-man from Half-Life into BG3.

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Tarquin is ok, he sells some good, ehm... merchandise, yeah that's it :3

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Originally Posted by Niara
The atmosphere, tone, setting and set-up are all entirely different... and you know this, and are being facetious.

I could split hairs and say 'a cart is not a ship' - in order to make that 'the same' you'd have to reduce the descriptor to an incredibly generic term, to the point of the statement having no meaning; this is not true of the example you're holding it up against, whihc are both set upon ,and use as their introductory setting, a literal ship - one is an astral ship, but ships they both very much are, in every way that matters for the plot element.

I could split hairs and say that we do not stay on the cart, and the rest happens in a different location, unlike the example you're holding it up against, for which the ship is the entire setting for the introductory sequence.

I could split hairs and say 'arrive at a camp' is not at all the same as 'break free on a ship'

I could point out that your last example is entirely different to the thing you are holding it up against, and is by your own descriptive words not even remotely the same thing at all...

I don't really need to do any of that, because you already know this, and if I try, you will just continue to be flippant and pedantic for the sake of being so, without really engaging with the topic in a meaningful way.... and I know that you are capable of being far better than that, Ragnarok, so it would serve neither of us to feed that aspect of your behaviour.


Rather than doing that, I'd recommend you address yourself to the wealth of individual elements that pair one-to-one between these two games opening introductions and first acts; they are numerous, specific and sufficiently detailed to be visible to many players as directly recycled elements. Please do share your thoughts and feelings about those.

Wow, well THIS is a language barrier. First of all, why would you start your points with a poorly disguised antagonism regarding another user's way of thinking and behavior? All I see as a bywalker is a logical thought, that a lot of stories follow same patterns to engage the audience. Why would you deny that? Human brain is very good at discerning patterns and it is natural that Rag, likely having a well developed imagination and abstract thinking capabilities?, was able to read similarities in the plot structure of those games. I can do it as well. Also I think there is nothing bad about having same plot structure, if it works - engages the player.

The overall mood of the sword coast surely draws inspiration from the DOS games. However, the level design itself is far more complex with a fully developed vertical level design system. I don't remember the multi-leveled design with wooden beam walking in DOS2. Don't recall complexity In approaching a location either - there are a lot of interactive environment pieces like mushrooms you can jump on, protected barriers that require conditions to break, several ways to infiltrate locations. What is fundamentally wrong with improving on an already strong base of the original ideas? What do you expect from the level design personally? What exactly don't you like about the current one? And how subjective is it?

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First of all, why would you start your points with a poorly disguised antagonism regarding another user's way of thinking and behavior?

I didn't. I made an overt comment about the other poster's behaviour and the pointlessness of rising to it. I disguised nothing.

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All I see as a bywalker is a logical thought, that a lot of stories follow same patterns to engage the audience. Why would you deny that?

I didn't.

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What is fundamentally wrong with improving on an already strong base of the original ideas?

Nothing, unless what you're trying to make is a new story. Which they are.

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What exactly don't you like about the current one?

The extremely long laundry list of near-identical elements copied wholesale like a full-body transplant across to BG3 from D:os2, with barely a coat of paint slapped on them.

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And how subjective is it?

It's not; the list is one of purely objective, academic facts about the two games' intro sequences.

==

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What do you expect from the level design personally?

Many things, none of which are at all relevant to this particular element of the discussion.


Your post sums to:

"I think it's not bad that Bg3 and D:OS2 have the same intro, why do you think it is?"

I think it's bad because they're the same, to a magnitude that is highly visible and very off-putting, and the number and degree of recycled elements is appalling. Taking inspiration to use similar elements in your game, from other popular tropes or effective plot devices is one thing, but when you lift the majority of the elements of the intro of your previous game, and transplant them wholesale with barley a coat of paint into your new game, in a completely different IP, and treat that as your base, that's lazy, unengaging and dishonest design. I'm not satisfied with being fed a microwaved, lightly-reseasoned bowl of yester-year's gruel as the entrée to what is supposed to be a new experience. If you ARE okay with that, that's fine for you; I'm not.

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I find that last post oddly satisfying ...
Not talking about the content, but the format. :3


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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Originally Posted by neprostoman
The overall mood of the sword coast surely draws inspiration from the DOS games. However, the level design itself is far more complex with a fully developed vertical level design system. I don't remember the multi-leveled design with wooden beam walking in DOS2. Don't recall complexity In approaching a location either - there are a lot of interactive environment pieces like mushrooms you can jump on, protected barriers that require conditions to break, several ways to infiltrate locations. What is fundamentally wrong with improving on an already strong base of the original ideas?
And that's why I think calling BG3 a "clone" or "reskin" is very unfair. Why I personally dislike this is this, to requote myself:
Originally Posted by Wormerine
That they choose to repeat that much from their highly acclaimed D:OS2 I think it tells something about Larian priorities - I think it goes in line with how little they think of importance of the narrative. Mario games often repeate same level theming but they are clearly not copies. I suspect Larian might be thinking the same way - "We did D:OS2, how can we make it better?", rather then thinking of a new story to tell.
BG3 is a cRPG - as such first and foremost I see it as an interactive, story-driven medium. That's definitely how I saw BG1&2 and most of Bioware catalogue, with gameplay being secondary. Mario games have been using pretty much same plot and world theming for many of their games, but it doesn't matter because story is not something one plays Mario game for (at least I don't).

Seeing the story being reused is a far bigger crime for me in an RPG, then it is in most other genres. It is even less welcome as I thought story in D:OS2 was rather poor, so seeing story beats that remind me of that game is not welcome, and I see issues I had with that game bleed into BG3 already.

On top of that, it adds to the frustration that in spite of a new setting and new ruleset BG3 shares a lot of design principles of D:OS2 - which is understandable as both were made by Larian, building on the same tech, but it is still unwelcome by me. Similar story beats only reinforce that earie similarity. I mean even Bethesda didn't start you in Fallout3 as a prisoner again.

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Originally Posted by Niara
I didn't. I made an overt comment about the other poster's behaviour and the pointlessness of rising to it. I disguised nothing.

You wrote:
Originally Posted by Niara
and you know this, and are being facetious.
Originally Posted by Niara
I don't really need to do any of that, because you already know this, and if I try, you will just continue to be flippant and pedantic for the sake of being so, without really engaging with the topic in a meaningful way.... and I know that you are capable of being far better than that, Ragnarok, so it would serve neither of us to feed that aspect of your behaviour.

There is a certain level of antagonism here, to be specific - prejudice and dismissive commentary. By disguising I meant that it wasn't a blunt disagreement, but still you belittled another user's commentary just because he didn't write a PHD degree level of commentary and analysis and referred to the fundamental perceptional concepts. If you didn't mean it, I get it, but words speak for themselves and I am not that mad and delusional yet to make a statement out of nowhere, even if you want to expose me as such.

Originally Posted by Niara
Nothing, unless what you're trying to make is a new story. Which they are.

Why would making a new story lose anything by drawing inspiration from successful projects and building on that legacy? Please, elaborate.


Originally Posted by Niara
The extremely long laundry list of near-identical elements copied wholesale like a full-body transplant across to BG3 from D:os2, with barely a coat of paint slapped on them.

Those being?
Before you answer, I'll try myself! There is a ship in the DOS2 and there is a Nautiloid in BG3. Both are moving vessels with all the underlying consequences of being vessels. But there are differences as well:

- One if flying and one is sailing. (rule of cool)
- One is a known human environment, while the other is an alien environment (more interesting to explore, visually more thought-provoking)
- In the DOS2 case there is a clear social message (separatism, racism, fear of those different) from the start while BG3 intro is structured more like an adventure with a discernible evil (mind flayers) posing threat to MC.

Those are just few things that come to my mind, they are not to prove you wrong or anything, but my take. I am eager to hear yours.

Originally Posted by Niara
It's not; the list is one of purely objective, academic facts about the two games' intro sequences.

But surely your opinion on those facts is subjective, isn't it?
Or please, tell me, how question about someone's liking can be objective? My question was HOW subjective is it, because it clearly is smile
Can you please try to prove otherwise?
Once again, I only write this because I don't want my questions and argument to fall under the unnecessary pressure you are exerting by long reads, using one POV in a dismissive manner to the other and other "tools".

Originally Posted by Niara
I'm not satisfied with being fed a microwaved, lightly-reseasoned bowl of yester-year's gruel as the entrée to what is supposed to be a new experience. If you ARE okay with that, that's fine for you; I'm not.

I am not okay with being fed a gruel! laugh Who is?
Why do you write this conclusion as if everyone sees the world with your eyes? I just don't see the blatant copy pasting you are talking about, this is my vision and the vision of some others probably. You were acting in the convo with Rag like he knows deep in his heart that your perception of things is something universal right and just doesn't want to admit it like he is some stubborn child or something, lol. You were denying him his own vision and mentioning some language barrier at the same time... Anyway, I respect your opinion and that was my last post on the matter, even though I'd like to read your answer. Lets channel our frustration somewhere else, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
On top of that, it adds to the frustration that in spite of a new setting and new ruleset BG3 shares a lot of design principles of D:OS2 - which is understandable as both were made by Larian, building on the same tech, but it is still unwelcome by me. Similar story beats only reinforce that earie similarity. I mean even Bethesda didn't start you in Fallout3 as a prisoner again.

Hm. Lets imagine (just for a second) there was no DOS and DOS2. Would BG3 being a standalone project alter your perception? Would you see its story (the bits we know about now) as mediocre? When I was first playing BG3 I did find the story very engaging, I can't name a major flaw in the storytelling without inventing it and purposefully squeezing it out of myself frown

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Hm. Lets imagine (just for a second) there was no DOS and DOS2. Would BG3 being a standalone project alter your perception? Would you see its story (the bits we know about now) as mediocre? When I was first playing BG3 I did find the story very engaging, I can't name a major flaw in the storytelling without inventing it and purposefully squeezing it out of myself frown

It's a bit of a pointless endeavour asking if the perception of BG3 would be different were it a standalone project as it isn't, but just to play along I can categorically state I would still find the companions unbearable and poorly written and the story left me totally uninterested. Subjective takes of course because half the fanbase is salivating over Astarion ad nauseam.

Haven't played for almost 2 years but I do recall some pretty glaring flaws in the story, the main culprit being informed at every opportunity that you must rush to seek a cure for the tadpole immediately but then leisurely being able to go about your business with no consequences.
Why can a Vampire spawn walk in the daylight? Apparently because of the tadpole.
Why are all these companions with their extraordinary backgrounds and tales of great power now level 1? Apparently because of the tadpole. Those are not particularly good examples of writing.
There is also Shadowheart's box that is so integral to the story that somehow it finds its way back to you regardless of whether you kill Shadowheart or choose not to use her as a companion (as far as I know anyway, it might have changed in recent patches?).

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