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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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You do you. Being tired and exasperated by a feature which is completely optional, in no way encouraged, with no mechanical advantages is bizarre to me, though. That is because you do not understand that it makes a difference whether Larian implements that, thus sending that message that they do not care about their own creation to *everyone*, or if you mod the game for the same outcome but with no such message. I actually care about the existence of such a message, it changes how I feel about the game and its characters. It's not critical. I won't stop playing the game or liking certain characters because of it. But it does make a difference. I really don’t understand. For me, the extent to which Larian cares about their world and characters is clearly demonstrated by how much effort they exerted animating, rendering, writing, mo-capping, and developing these characters. They clearly care a lot. All respecing communicates to me is an acknowledgment that they understand some players won’t care as much as they do. I think it’s wonderfully refreshing that they aren’t going to try and force unnecessary restrictions for the sake of their vision if that’s not how a player wants to play. +1 I can't say I understand either.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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No, I think it's more there as way to hand players freedom, and also a safety net.
Let's say I'm having Shadowheart along as a cool Trickery Cleric/ Rogue combo. But let's say, storywise, she's converted to say, a Selunite. I can totally see that happen... But if that *does* happen, I'd totally respec her into a Light Cleric dipped in Fighter. You can't really force than unto players; you reached the midgame and suddenly you're a different class with a totally different playstyle. But staying the dark shadowy operative of Shar as a Selunite feels wrong, too.
Now, don;t get me wrong - for my preferences, the narrative leads and I play within those bounds; period. But leaving it to the player isn't so bad here. I find respeccing cheating for myself. BUt not everyone is me. What if I'm not a D&D veteran and I just want to see what the other things do? I can totally get that.
Lastly, if someone wants to abuse that - all the power to them. This kind of comes up in single player most, anyway - as multiplayers wil have far less companion characters running around.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2023
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You do you. Being tired and exasperated by a feature which is completely optional, in no way encouraged, with no mechanical advantages is bizarre to me, though. That is because you do not understand that it makes a difference whether Larian implements that, thus sending that message that they do not care about their own creation to *everyone*, or if you mod the game for the same outcome but with no such message. I actually care about the existence of such a message, it changes how I feel about the game and its characters. It's not critical. I won't stop playing the game or liking certain characters because of it. But it does make a difference. I really don’t understand. For me, the extent to which Larian cares about their world and characters is clearly demonstrated by how much effort they exerted animating, rendering, writing, mo-capping, and developing these characters. They clearly care a lot. All respecing communicates to me is an acknowledgment that they understand some players won’t care as much as they do. I think it’s wonderfully refreshing that they aren’t going to try and force unnecessary restrictions for the sake of their vision if that’s not how a player wants to play. And I don't understand why anyone would ever want to change a character that's not even theirs in a way that makes a mockery of their story - and thinks that this should be explicitly implemented by the creators of said story. That's just bizarre. They can choose to do it, of course. It's their stuff after all. But I certainly do not see any legitimacy in demanding it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2020
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You do you. Being tired and exasperated by a feature which is completely optional, in no way encouraged, with no mechanical advantages is bizarre to me, though. That is because you do not understand that it makes a difference whether Larian implements that, thus sending that message that they do not care about their own creation to *everyone*, or if you mod the game for the same outcome but with no such message. I actually care about the existence of such a message, it changes how I feel about the game and its characters. It's not critical. I won't stop playing the game or liking certain characters because of it. But it does make a difference. I really don’t understand. For me, the extent to which Larian cares about their world and characters is clearly demonstrated by how much effort they exerted animating, rendering, writing, mo-capping, and developing these characters. They clearly care a lot. All respecing communicates to me is an acknowledgment that they understand some players won’t care as much as they do. I think it’s wonderfully refreshing that they aren’t going to try and force unnecessary restrictions for the sake of their vision if that’s not how a player wants to play. And I don't understand why anyone would ever want to change a character that's not even theirs in a way that makes a mockery of their story - and thinks that this should be explicitly implemented by the creators of said story. That's just bizarre. They can choose to do it, of course. It's their stuff after all. But I certainly do not see any legitimacy in demanding it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. +1 Beat me to it. I always found it hard to take Larian stories seriously when they themselves don't.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
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And I don't understand why anyone would ever want to change a character that's not even theirs in a way that makes a mockery of their story - and thinks that this should be explicitly implemented by the creators of said story. That's just bizarre. They can choose to do it, of course. It's their stuff after all. But I certainly do not see any legitimacy in demanding it.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. Yep, agree to disagree. But I will say, nobody demanded this feature. I certainly didn’t. I am just happy it’s there. Before I had to resort to ShadowKeeper for this sort stuff. I would have gladly done so again, but it’s convenient that the middle man was cut out for me. There are three groups here: people happy that it was included, people indifferent, and people upset by it. I’ve never seen anybody in the first group insist that this absolutely needs to be included, while I have seen many people in the last absolutely insist that it should not have been. So the equivalency you just tried to draw doesn’t hold water.
Last edited by Warlocke; 25/07/23 12:22 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Halsin needs to respec, having 2 druids companions just doesn't really work for me, Halsin is fine as a romance option but as companion it doesn't work at all both mechanically and narratively speaking, the guy ditched his responsibilities, he offered to be a guide and nothing more, he can go back to grove instead of outstaying his welcome, we have Jaheira as our druid companion, so Halsin can now be a bard/feylock.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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This, just like 50% of the rest of things people are complaining about it, is as simple as "If you don't want to do it, then don't." Case closed. I'm not planning on using it at all. Do I care that it is in there for others to use? No. Because it in no way effects my game play or my day to day life. You want to use it? Have at it mate. Enjoy what looks like the best rpg game in the last 10 years at least.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2020
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Tav is an anonymous and random guy with nothing to tell.. That is entirely due to Tav being a player-generated character and therefore a blank slate. Tav is intended that way. Other than tadpole removal, there's no personal stake [yet]. They've implemented other options, but mention them here, and you'll be met with 'Rrraaa rrraaaa I want only Tavs in my party rrraaaa rraaa Bad Game rrraaaaa He should be a gnome rrraaaaaaaa' Well, Larian has never been masters of immersion and world-building. Well, that *is* true, but that doesn't mean they haven't grown in that department. The company has grown tremendously for the development of this game. Surely, they'va added people in charge of that? We've only played an Alpha state of partly the first chapter. What’s wrong with Larian supporting choices that breaks the integrity of the characters? I don't necesarily see the problem here, to be honest. It does go against how I'd want to experience the game, however so I'll never touch it. I don't see any logical connection for which, given that Tav is a customizable character by the player, he should be a blank slate. The Gorion's Ward has a well-intertwined defined background with the events of the saga but still has full freedom to act and make his own choices. The DU in this sense seems to be the true main character of the game. As for the ability to enhance immersion in the game world, in EA , I've noticed that they are still quite behind. Much of it is due to the lack of contextualization of your character, who finds himself abducted by the nautiloid, but you don't know what he was doing until 5 minutes before, and there is no way given to make you tell or find out.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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I don't see any logical connection for which. Huh? Which what? but you don't know what he was doing until 5 minutes before, and there is no way given to make you tell or find out. How are they possibly guessing, in advance, all the things we've come up with? And everyone else? There's the background you can select, it should be sufficient. It has no bearing on the story either way. They could implement some generic things, I guess, but then it would becone meaningless.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2020
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I don't see any logical connection for which. Huh? Which what? but you don't know what he was doing until 5 minutes before, and there is no way given to make you tell or find out. How are they possibly guessing, in advance, all the things we've come up with? And everyone else? There's the background you can select, it should be sufficient. It has no bearing on the story either way. They could implement some generic things, I guess, but then it would becone meaningless. "...player-generated character and therefore a blank slate." This, to me, lacks logical connection. Gorion's Ward (like any other player-generated character in a good RPG) is customizable, but well integrated into the story, and you feel immersed in the atmosphere that has been created. Your companions follow you because your character is the special one who does special things. In BG3, Tav is the most anonymous of the companions, and it's not clear why all of a sudden, he is the leader who decides what to do. The elements that build the story and the identity of your character should have connections within the storyline and the game world. They form the foundation of an RPG. You can see this in games like Dragon Age Origins, the old BG series, Pillars of Eternity series, and so on. In the Early Access, we have seen only 25% of the game, and these elements are either missing or not perceptible. It's quite evident to assume that they will remain the same for Tav even at the release.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Oh, I don't know. Sure, Candlekeep was fine - but there is a bit of a disconnect in the freedom of creating your character, as well. At the start of BG1, you;ve never set foot outside of the walls. So, who in Candlekeep taught Charname to be a ranger, or a druid, for example? You can roll an adult Dwarf or Elf, but you're also only twenty years old. The game doesn't adjust for this, it is up to the player to head-canon that. Just like you should for Tav. I'm not so sure *if* Tav is more of a party leader than Charname is, either. Everyone joins up for their own reasons, just like in BG1/2. More so even; Anomen, Keldorn, Mazzy and others have no real reason to stick with you other than 'I'm an adventurer, this is what I do for a living'. In BG1, only Jaheira and Khalid have some connection to the main plotline, where most others just have a 'I'll help you if you help me" thing going, such as Minsc, Viconia or Edwin. The elements that build the story and the identity of your character should have connections within the storyline and the game world. [.....] You can see this in games like Dragon Age Origins, the old BG series, Pillars of Eternity series, and so on. Yeah, Origins was awesome in that, but at the same time, that game had three classes and five thirty minute Origin stories. I really liked that, but that made character creation severly limited compared to BG3, or any other game mentioned. In Pillars, it was a meaningless statblock that gave you a +1 bonus to something and a paragraph of explanation. Everything else is just class/race reactivity; just like BG3. In Mass Effect, you get one of three [Red, white and Blue] choices that comes up in a five minute sidequest and never again. They form the foundation of an RPG The foundation of an RPG is playing to your imagination, I'd argue here. The most true roleplaying I've done in a crpg is in Elder Scrolls games, really. And that's a *true* blank state character. You're a prisoner, end of. Everything else you have to imagine yourself. The more they narrow your character down, the harder it becomes to imagine things yourself. This was a common complaint against Fallout 4, for example; giving you a family, where Nate was a soldier and Norah a lawyer. It limited people to imagine their own backstory.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2017
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I'd say that when in doubt, choice + options > everything, period.
I welcome Story Mode, I welcome Tactician, I welcome being able to respec, and go crazy with multiclassing + facilitated spell progression, I welcome being able to mess the game up with mods to my liking if I want to have even more options or limitations.
And nobody's forcing anyone to do any of that. Respec, minmax, exploit mechanics, outright cheat - none of this is made available to players in such an intrusive way that it feels like something they "should" do as an integral part of the game's experience.
And for sure, nobody's stopping anyone from having a 100% cohesive experience between game systems and narrative. It's all right there, and the choice is entirely yours.
So I wish people would not get hung up about things that simply will not affect them if they choose not to let themselves be affected. Overly focusing on what other players do and thinking they're somehow playing the game "wrong" because they have fun "the wrong way" -> it's the worst kind of gatekeeping, shitting on everyone else's time + enjoyment. Agree on your own rules when doing multiplayer with like-minded people, and enjoy the game exactly the way you like.
Last edited by endolex; 28/07/23 11:43 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
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I'd say that when in doubt, choice + options > everything, period.
I welcome Story Mode, I welcome Tactician, I welcome being able to respec, and go crazy with multiclassing + facilitated spell progression, I welcome being able to mess the game up with mods to my liking if I want to have even more options or limitations.
And nobody's forcing anyone to do any of that. Respec, minmax, exploit mechanics, outright cheat - none of this is made available to players in such an intrusive way that it feels like something they "should" do as an integral part of the game's experience.
And for sure, nobody's stopping anyone from having a 100% cohesive experience between game systems and narrative. It's all right there, and the choice is entirely yours.
So I wish people would not get hung up about things that simply will not affect them if they choose not to let themselves be affected. Overly focusing on what other players do and thinking they're somehow playing the game "wrong" because they have fun "the wrong way" -> it's the worst kind of gatekeeping, shitting on everyone else's time + enjoyment. Agree on your own rules when doing multiplayer with like-minded people, and enjoy the game exactly the way you like. Word!
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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I'm glad for the respec. I'm probably going to respec an origin character on each playthrough. On the first one, I was pretty sure I'd change Lae'zel to a Wizard but it might be Sorcerer.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2023
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Absolutely yes, a 1000 times. It was essential to do it in Original Sin 2 too with all the different spell schools.
It just means you can both take your favourite party composition along AND try out new class combos.
I am just happy I can turn Shadowheart into a War Cleric, for example.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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I am just happy I can turn Shadowheart into a War Cleric, for example. From what Swen said ... Im affraid this can be exactly one of the two things you cannot do.  Im kinda lazy to search for his exact words again, especialy since i allready quoted him somewhere in this very topic ... so, just read back you wish to see them, or search for his last interview. Anyway, he told us that two Origin Companions will have locked subclass ... Wich, if i understand it corectly ofc, in my honest opinion means that Shadowheart and Wyll (who seems like most probable candidates) can be turned into any class by respec ... BUT!!! ... if you turn Shadowheart into Cleric, she have to be Trickery one ... and if you turn Wyll into Warlock, he have to be Fiend. But that is just my interpretation, and could be wrong ofc. 
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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member
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member
Joined: Jan 2021
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Barbarian Gale talking about reading books and petting his cat in a tower here I come!
Joking aside, I don't mind one bit. It's optional and some characters aren't really tied to their class anyway.
Astarion for example could be anything except maybe cleric or druid...? I can even see him work well as a vengeance paladin to be honest, especially if you play him as an origin character who wants to take revenge on Cazador.
Lae'zel I think works well with all martial classes. She would be sick as a monk imho.
Same thing for Karlach, but why not make her a magic class specialized in fire spells? That could also be cool.
Minthara can be any class, really...
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Anyway, he told us that two Origin Companions will have locked subclass ... Yes, at the start of the game, if you play *as* them. You can still respec, however, and you can always respec your companions at any time. However, the game does not adjust to it story-wise. So you *can* make Minsc a Sorcerer, but he'll still talk about Hamsters and Rangers rejoicing. For that reason, I'll not spec him out of Ranger - but *will* give him ranger 5 / barbarian 5 / fighter 2 Astarion for example could be anything except maybe cleric or druid...? Definitely. I can really see him as a nasty neckbiting necromancer. Lae'zel I see more as the Vengeance Pally, I might do that, actually. Shadowheart is just begging for Rogue dips, being that sneaky secret agent that she is. If she converts to Selune, I'll definitely respec her into something that fits her more. Light Cleric/ Fighter 2 or something. Wyll is a Warlock, and I don't like speccing him out of that unless I break his pact. But. I don't like Warlocks one bit. He wants to be this hero-type however, so we'll meet in the middle. He'll take an Oath and wyll be a Lockadin ever onward. Barbarian Gale talking about reading books and petting his cat in a tower here I come! That won't happen in my game, but being the exposition cannon with attempted humor, I can totally see him dipped into Lore Bard.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Anyway, he told us that two Origin Companions will have locked subclass ... Yes, at the start of the game, if you play *as* them. You can still respec, however, and you can always respec your companions at any time. However, the game does not adjust to it story-wise. So you *can* make Minsc a Sorcerer, but he'll still talk about Hamsters and Rangers rejoicing. For that reason, I'll not spec him out of Ranger - but *will* give him ranger 5 / barbarian 5 / fighter 2 Uhm ... I have no idea why are you telling me this. But ok. I gues?
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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I don't plan on respecing any of the companions that I play; but your playthrough is Your playthrough and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you do it.
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