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Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240717
04/06/04 02:20 AM
04/06/04 02:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 272
crusader Offline
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crusader  Offline
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Quote
one big point I just have to make is that no game, and I mean NO game, ever came close to Diablo IIs item system... remember the exceptional and elite unique items and the thrill of getting any of them? remember the terrific rares and the incredible sets? (the ones that came with LoD, not the crappy standard ones...)

No game ever came close to that, even though many have tried, and apart from the atmosphere, I think those were what made DII so incredible...


d2 item generation = close to perfection. blizzard really outdid everybody else with d2 lord of destruction. so popular are some items that they were even sold on ebay. every bowazon aimed for a buriza, every javazon for a titan's revenge, every barbarian dreamed of a four-socket cruel colossus blade of quickness, or an immortal king's set or a fury berserker axe, or an arreat's face...the list just goes on and on.

as if that's not enough, the most memorable, toughest monsters can be found in d2. it's all about the random mods that will spawn on them. hell ancients anyone? a msle, cursed, extra strong-extra fast, whirlwinding talic, or a one-hit death from the leap-attacking barb who wields the biggest axe in any rpg, korlic. the lord de seis in the chaos sanctuary, the oblivion knights who cast iron maiden, lister the tormentor, arguably the biggest melee brawler in any rpg, nihlathak, the council members in mephisto's lair, duriel (god, who doesn't say a prayer upon entering his lair), ancient kaa the undead, a greater mummy found in one of the false tombs in the canyon of the magi (good luck trying to kill him in hell mode. i know i never did. i just ran away from him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )...again the list just goes on and on. the most memorable battles i've had in any rpg were in d2.

some games may have better stories, but d2 delivers on the goodies. if ever blizzard north decides to make diablo III, i shudder at the thought if what it will do to the action-rpg fans. many sleepless nights on b.net again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

sigh...this should be in the "all-time best rpg's" thread in the rpg chat forum.


"what we see with our eyes alone isn't necessarily the truth..." - final fantasy tactics
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240718
04/06/04 12:39 PM
04/06/04 12:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,541
London, England
Elliot_Kane Offline
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Kiya...

"What makes an RPG?" is a good question. I'll try to answer it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To me, a true RPG (As opposed to an Action-RPG) is about character interaction, character development (By which I mean personal development, NOT stat/ability boosting) and having a wide range of choices in how your character interacts with the world around him/her.

Very few CRPGs are genuinely RPGs in that they rarely offer the character choices beyond hitting, trading, etc. Most such games are not about the characters, they are about gaining abilities, with the actual role playing elements kept to a minimum.

If proper role playing is 'freeform acting' (As I have occasionally described it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) then CRPGs need to allow the player to take on a role and then PLAY that role themselves in order to qualify.

Now you know why I rate Torment as the best ever <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

***

In terms of skill development, Lionheart has the best system I have ever seen. Unfortunately, it suffers from the same problem as the original DD - great game right up to the very tedious end section, which is one long fight.

I definitely agree with the person who said Diablo 2 has the best item system. I've never seen any other system come close, in truth.

Dungeon Siege has the best graphics engine, but unfortunately that is ALL it has going for it. The game is far too linear, and really could use a mini-map!


Please click the banner...
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240719
04/06/04 01:41 PM
04/06/04 01:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,313
MOO!
Womble Offline
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d2 item generation = close to perfection. blizzard really outdid everybody else with d2 lord of destruction. so popular are some items that they were even sold on ebay. every bowazon aimed for a buriza, every javazon for a titan's revenge, every barbarian dreamed of a four-socket cruel colossus blade of quickness, or an immortal king's set or a fury berserker axe, or an arreat's face...the list just goes on and on.


Damn straight. Its what keeps me going back to the game. If I just run Baal/pits/chaos sanctury one more time maybe I can find that zod rune or ethereal bezerker axe. Its like pokemon, gotta collect 'em all!

The skill diversity is fantastic too. Melee sorcs, tourettes barbs, cleric paladins, the list is endless. Ever read about the guy who made a 'punching' sorc? No skills, no attribute points, no gear! Just lots and lots and lots of healing potions. Killed Andariel after an epic fist fight! (Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240720
04/06/04 08:41 PM
04/06/04 08:41 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 95
A small cupboard in Leicester
BenWright Offline
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BenWright  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 95
A small cupboard in Leicester
To use Grims options

Best story: Planescape: Torment It was surprisingly original.

Best Music: Throne of Bhaal. Inon Zur (composer) is amazing.

Best endgame battle: The modified battles for BG2: Throne of Bhaal. I remember the improved fire giant fight fondly. My uber team were knee deep in the corpses of the Firegiants army, but still they came. I was running out of both defensive and offensive magic. The Army mages were casting and keeping globes of invulnerablity. My fighters were running out of whilrwind attacks. I lost 2 out of my team and had to resurrect them mid fight, forcing them to fight amourless. I still defeated the Army General though.

Best Expansion: Throne of Bhaal, as explained above.

Best quest system: Fallout 2. The way the quests can be completed and cross conflict with each other were excellent. Only working Rep system I've ever seen too.

Most addictive Game: System Shock 2. The speed of the FPS view meant it could be sped through much faster than the isometric view games, increasing replayablity I feel.

Best NPC companion: Minsc (and Boo) Baldurs Gate or Marcus (and his overly excitable Bozar Machine Gun) Fallout 2 or Anyone from PST.

Best Character Development System: Fallout - Traits and perks rule all.

Best Skills: Finesse in Fallout 1/2 How can anyone not love that Critical hit to the eyes!

Best RPG: Planescape Torment

Most buggy and unplayable game ever: Beyond Divinity. I would have said Ultima 9 but I only ever played the fully patched version.

Worst Dialogue: Most Final Fantasy games. Some weird Japanese culture thing, it just doesn't translate no matter what. It's still cool in a weird way.

Worst user interface: (looks over collection and picks) Lands of Lore 3. Can't redefine Mouse means left button is forward and Right Button is action...the oposite to every other game ever!

Worst character upgrading system: Deus Ex 2 Invisible War. Removal of Skills and Fubar augs. Probably shouldnt be classsed as a RPG anyway even though the first is.

Most anticipated new Game: Gothic 3 but it's ages away yet. Fallout 3 if Interplay somehow survive and the rumours are true.



Kiya said
"Boycotted Diablo 2, due to what I considered a very sexistic approach in Diablo 1. (See, Ben? Where's forgiving Kiya now? )" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240721
05/06/04 04:54 AM
05/06/04 04:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 692
Winterfox Offline
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Winterfox  Offline
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Yay, laziness! (Note: personal opinion only. Naturally.)

Best story: Planescape: Torment -- original, refreshing, flat-out amazing and has very few of the common cliches. The setting is also extremely atypical for fantasy.

Best music: Planescape: Torment -- yes, many of the tracks were variations of one music, but they were all very memorable. Icewind Dale's music is also lovely.

Best NPC companion:I hate Minsc with an unholy passion. So, HK-47 for comic value; Morte for comic and character depth value; Dak'kon for depth; Canderous Ordo for a variety of reasons.

Best RPG: Planescape: Torment -- for overall setting, story, and characters.

Best voiceacting: KotOR -- no competition, IMO, so far.

Most buggy and unplayable game ever: toughie. A tie between BD and ToEE.

Most generic RPG: Divine Divinity. Yes, it was fun. But by gods, the sheer generic feel! Nothing's new. Nothing at all. I do believe it's supposed to be intentional, but I have to question the desire to slap as many fantasy cliches onto one game as possible (and without it being a satire, ala Terry Pratchett).

Worst writing: Prince of Qin.

Worst voiceacting: Beyond Divinity. Sorry.

Worst skill system: Beyond Divinity. Nothing comes even remotely close to it.

Most anticipated new game: KotOR2.

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240722
05/06/04 08:11 AM
05/06/04 08:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,702
Germany
kiya Offline
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Germany
Ah, well, letting my members speak for themselves => the way how often they took a game with them (bought at the same time, could introduce RPG only from Jan 2003 on, lending period is 4 weeks). I think, it's a nice way to show how average gamers choose, not necessarily hardcore ones:
IWD2 -add-on: 18x
NWN: 18x
Arcanum: 17x
Gothic2: 11x
PST: 8x
BG2+add-on: 8x
IWD+add-on: 7x
BG1+add-on: 5x
Fallout: 5x

Adventures go better (Runaway is number 1). Looking at 2 sublibraries shows an even lower quote for RPG. I didn't buy Div, because not many gamers had internet at that time to download patches. Bought BD (April 2004) - was already taken 2x

Kiya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by kiya; 05/06/04 08:43 AM.
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240723
05/06/04 08:31 AM
05/06/04 08:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 8
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MrWhite Offline
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Neverwinter nights is a brilliant game because of the mod-friendliness. Who cares about the original official campaign? There are so many mods out now it's hard to make time for the good ones, and if you include every single one I think you could be playing for years(in suffering, because there's lots of crap out there. But that's not the point! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) It's just amazing to watch the community grow better and better as time goes on.

If you try any mods I recommend looking at the newer ones. My personal favorite is Rick Burton's paladin trilogy(not completely finished yet) which can be found at: http://nwvault.ign.com

Anyway, here's my list:

1.Neverwinter nights
2.Planescape torment
3.Diablo 2
4.Final Fantasy 8(Deserves to be mentioned.)
.
.
.
.
.
.
5.Beyond divinity(Sorry, larian! Others have given lots of reasons why.)

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240724
05/06/04 10:54 AM
05/06/04 10:54 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 11
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Razorsharp Offline
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Not tryen to pee anyone off but i dunno why Diablo games are even mentioned on this list.Its fine for people who dont have alot of time to play, and need something they can just pick up and start playing,but it has knowwhere near the depth of Planescape Torment or about 100 other pcrpg ever made.

My list.

Best Voice acting = Planescape Torment

Best Graphics = Morrowind

Worst graphics = Diablo Gave me migrane headaches if i played longer then 1 hour

Best Music = i actually liked Divine Divinty in this department

best charecter interaction = Planescape by alot

Best Battle system = NWN gotta love the quick keys

Best overall rpg = Planescape for the story and char interaction, and Morrowind for the exploring aspect.

Most overrated = Diablo

Most Underrated = Pool of Radiance "Ruins of Myth Drannor" Once they got the bugs Worked out i had alot of fun with this game.

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240725
05/06/04 01:52 PM
05/06/04 01:52 PM
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Posts: 457
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Grim Offline
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Most anticipated new Game: Gothic 3 but it's ages away yet. Fallout 3 if Interplay somehow survive and the rumours are true.



It does seem like Interplay is in a world of pain. Find info here:


http://www.frictionlessinsight.com

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240726
06/06/04 01:52 PM
06/06/04 01:52 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 95
A small cupboard in Leicester
BenWright Offline
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BenWright  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 95
A small cupboard in Leicester
It's a crying shame really. Fallout 3 is likely gone for good. The nameless Ad&D game that would have had a Fallour type dialogue and rep system, dead and buried. Lioneheart, could have been great, but turned out rubbisd.
What did interplay do to end up in this state? Was it their recent tendancy to spend momey to half develop games and then cancel them, again and again. They were huge once. How have they managed to destroy themselves.

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240727
07/06/04 02:32 AM
07/06/04 02:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 272
crusader Offline
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crusader  Offline
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Posts: 272


@razorsharp: it's included because it's what the post is asking for. true that it's not a deep rpg like baldur's gate or fallout, etc. d2 was never advertised to be such a game iirc. it's an action rpg in its barest form. you get to choose what character to play, right? you get to level up and distribute attribute pts.& pick skills, right?

it doesn't mean that if we say like d2 we don't play other games anymore. it's all about the choices we make. we are consumers and we can choose what to play. if i want to play a deep rpg, maybe i'll load the cd of bg or nwn. if i want to play a mix of both rpg depth & combat, i'll play <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />. if i want to play an rts w/ rpg elements, i'll play warcraft iii. if i feel like whirling or frenzying or zealing myself through hordes of enemies, i'll play d2. it just so happens that d2 has tremendous replay value. what build should i play today? ww barb, frenzy barb, iron barb, throwing barb, berserker barb, werewolf druid, werebear, fire sorc, nova sorc, weatherwoman, overlord necro, poison necro, bowazon, javazon, strafezon, multi-zon, fanatic zealot, thornadin, frost zealot, smiter, MA assy, cc assy, cs assy, trapper assy, etc. etc. etc. you get the idea.

the end result: over 13 million copies of d2 sold (last time i checked). multiply that by about $20-$30 and you get an idea of how much revenue d2 has generated for blizzard. it's hard to argue w/ success.

Last edited by crusader; 07/06/04 02:41 AM.

"what we see with our eyes alone isn't necessarily the truth..." - final fantasy tactics
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240728
07/06/04 02:37 AM
07/06/04 02:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 272
crusader Offline
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crusader  Offline
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Quote
d2 item generation = close to perfection. blizzard really outdid everybody else with d2 lord of destruction. so popular are some items that they were even sold on ebay. every bowazon aimed for a buriza, every javazon for a titan's revenge, every barbarian dreamed of a four-socket cruel colossus blade of quickness, or an immortal king's set or a fury berserker axe, or an arreat's face...the list just goes on and on.


Damn straight. Its what keeps me going back to the game. If I just run Baal/pits/chaos sanctury one more time maybe I can find that zod rune or ethereal bezerker axe. Its like pokemon, gotta collect 'em all!

The skill diversity is fantastic too. Melee sorcs, tourettes barbs, cleric paladins, the list is endless. Ever read about the guy who made a 'punching' sorc? No skills, no attribute points, no gear! Just lots and lots and lots of healing potions. Killed Andariel after an epic fist fight! (Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />


ever heard of the monday night paladin team? a group of members from the single player forum of dii.net played over tcp/ip, each using a pally, each specializing in an aura. needless to say, they pretty much ran roughshod over every monster they met. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

three amazons, and i still have to find a buriza. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />


"what we see with our eyes alone isn't necessarily the truth..." - final fantasy tactics
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240729
21/06/04 01:17 PM
21/06/04 01:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4
Sweden
Chamdar Offline
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Chamdar  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Sweden
I know this is a Beyond Divinity forum but still your Top 5 lists seems strange to me. For me Beyond Divinity is not even on my Top 5 list and just barely on my Top 11. I list the number of times I have completed the game in brackets.

1. Baldur's Gate 2 / Baldur's Gate [4, 3]
2. Fallout 2 / Fallout [3, 2]
5. Neverwinter Nights with all expansions [1, 2, 2]
4. Divine Divinity [1]
5. Knights of the Old Republic [1]

Those five games are all good enough to be number 1 but only 1 can hold that spot.

6. Arcanum [1]
7. Plancescape Torment [1]
8. Morrowind [1]
9. Temple of Elemental Evil [2]
10. Lionheart [1]
11. Beyond Divinity [0 almost there]

I put Lionheart before BD because it was more fun to play although the second half what not so fun. Has the best quest system also. Neverwinter Nights including all the player-made modules it probably the game I have spent most hours playing. Play the modules Twilight+Midnight they are superb.

I cannot really say why, but BD just doesn't motivate me. The jokes are only half-funny. Not like in Neverwinter Nights:Hordes of the Underdark, or Arcanum which made me laugh a lot. Play Arcanum as a really stupid Half-Ogre, it is hilarious.

The deathknight is original and I am all for that if it makes the game better but in this case it doesn't. Skills are nearly useless which makes you care less about your character. The story is not interesting but many RPGs has that problem. Graphics and sound are OK but they neither makes the game better or worse in this case.

I dont consider Diablo 2, Nox, or Sacred RPGs. They are great games but I consider them Action RPGs.

I dont list really old games like Pools of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Eye of the Beholder 2, Shattered Lands, or Menzoberranzan either. Shattered Lands is like a turn-based Baldur's Gate 2 but with psionics and a cool(hot) world. If you haven't played it you really should.


Currently I am half-way through Act 4 in BD and I just got so bored that I can't make myself finish the game. I am thinking about printing the last pages of the walkthrough and sacrifice the hours or less it takes to complete the game just to be done with it. Give me a reason to finish the game!

Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240730
27/06/04 12:04 PM
27/06/04 12:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7
switch11 Offline OP
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switch11  Offline OP
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I dont consider Diablo 2, Nox, or Sacred RPGs. They are great games but I consider them Action RPGs.

dude wtf is this sentence supposed to mean?

anyways liked ur selections - this was not a top 5 list.
it was nwnVs diablo Vs beyond divinity as the title so obviously puts it.

also any list of best rpgs would be woefully incomplete without

final fantasy 3-7
chronotrigger
mario rpg
anda lot of the other squareenix games.

add in ultima too


oh - one last thing - after playing and comleting these and many other games i still think that Planescape Torment is the very best RPG ever.






the first rule of fight club is - you don't talk about fight club. the second rule of fight club is - you don't talk about fight club. the third rule of fight club is - if this is your first night at fight club - you must fight.
Re: BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment #240731
27/06/04 01:51 PM
27/06/04 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,553
Canada
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DEATHATTHEDOOR Offline
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Canada
So Nox isn't an RPG wheras Square's games are?
Interesting.

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