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#245114 07/06/04 12:17 PM
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imho this cd-check / copy protection thing will be a difficult one to crack... I hope so anyway.


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#245115 07/06/04 12:20 PM
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Instant:
Hope you remove it in a latter patch hehe


Please, keep in mind, I'm naive when it comes to piracy, ISO, crack etc. and I'm not insinuating, you are one, ok?
I'd just like to know this => is it convenient/usual to ask a Developer/publisher to develop a patch depriving them of copy protection? As you gave an example (and I don't play UT) - did the Devs/publishers produce this no-CD patch themselves?

I'd be grateful to learn more about this - thanks anyone in advance. My knowledge about copyright is solely on the book sector.
Kiya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

#245116 07/06/04 01:35 PM
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Games like UT and also Q3 removed the cd check in later updates quite some time after their release (for Q3 that is, dunno about UT). I think they did this because the game was primarly an online game and in order to play it online you needed to have a working cd-key (which couldn't be generated by a keygen).

Not sure though, could have some other reasons.

#245117 07/06/04 02:07 PM
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imho this cd-check / copy protection thing will be a difficult one to crack... I hope so anyway.


Nah, cd-check was used for too long. Not only it's easily cracked but several cd-copy programs successfully bypass it.
I think Starforce is a rather lousy protection. Sure it's a bit more difficult to crack but it eats computer memory like a hungry hippo. I think the best so far was SecuROM, but again, it's damn too old.

#245118 07/06/04 04:35 PM
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Instant:
Hope you remove it in a latter patch hehe


Please, keep in mind, I'm naive when it comes to piracy, ISO, crack etc. and I'm not insinuating, you are one, ok?
I'd just like to know this => is it convenient/usual to ask a Developer/publisher to develop a patch depriving them of copy protection? As you gave an example (and I don't play UT) - did the Devs/publishers produce this no-CD patch themselves?

I'd be grateful to learn more about this - thanks anyone in advance. My knowledge about copyright is solely on the book sector.
Kiya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


An UT2004 patch, 3336 i believe, removed the requirement for the CD-in-drive.
This was the reason for me purchasing it.. I did'nt want to be annoyed with cd's, so I waited untill they removed that requirement.

They did the same with UT2003 if I remember correctly.

Its not about Copyright however, as the owners of the media have the rights, regardless of the cd being in the drive or not.

When UT2004 was released at first, it did require cd in drive, but there were already patches available for it - that removed this requirement (These were developed by 3rd parties not affiliated with the makers of UT2004)

Its very convenient to ask the publisher/developer, as they are the ones responsible for putting it there in the first place, and its the first place to go to voice your oppinion on the subject and ask for their stance/reasons/plans, so as to evaluate wheter or not to make a purchase.

I really want to play BD, since I loved DD, but I dont want to have the cd in the drive when I do so, for many reasons.



#245119 07/06/04 05:10 PM
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I am sorry but whoever buys games based on the fact if it requires cd in drive or not, probably won't figure out how to move his character in Beyond Divinity.

Sometimes I want to link some topics here to SomethingAwful.com

#245120 07/06/04 05:26 PM
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@Instant - thank you for explaining patiently <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - but I have one last question: Could it be, UT copy protection was taken out, as it is a MP game? Do you know of any other single player game (with NO MP possibility at all), where the Devs/publishers released a no-CD patch? (Fans don't count) - A real official patch.
Kiya <even more confused>

#245121 07/06/04 10:10 PM
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@Instant - thank you for explaining patiently <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - but I have one last question: Could it be, UT copy protection was taken out, as it is a MP game? Do you know of any other single player game (with NO MP possibility at all), where the Devs/publishers released a no-CD patch? (Fans don't count) - A real official patch.
Kiya <even more confused>


It is not a copy protection, it is a copy restriction.

However, yes, most likely it was taken out because the game is primarily aimed at MP, although you can play a lot in singleplayer or in LAN, and also use the Editor tools for creating content. I dont understand why they put it in - in the first place - as installing such costs money, and causes issues with games.

I do not recal any singleplayer game that has not required the cd-in-drive, but I am sure there are some. Yes; Gothic did not require cd in drive. Probably more.

Most of these games have no-cd patches available, created by fans or those distributing the unlicensed version, defeating the whole purpose of requiring the cd to be in the drive in the first place. So in the end - the only ones harmed by requiring cd in drive, are the legitimate customers.

But, lets say nobody has allowed legitimate owners of a game title to play it without having the cd in drive - after having spent gigabytes of hd space for the title, that does'nt mean they are doing something right (the publishers/developers), or that its a good idea.

Why not be the first to not harm customers with such methods and instead allow the to enjoy the game - they purchased - without the annoyance of a cd spinning wildly in the -rom.


#245122 07/06/04 10:11 PM
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I am sorry but whoever buys games based on the fact if it requires cd in drive or not, probably won't figure out how to move his character in Beyond Divinity.



You win prize.


#245123 07/06/04 10:29 PM
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Most of these games have no-cd patches available, created by fans


Yes, *cought* "fans".

#245124 07/06/04 10:55 PM
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@Instant:
Most of these games have no-cd patches available, created by fans or those distributing the unlicensed version, defeating the whole purpose of requiring the cd to be in the drive in the first place. So in the end - the only ones harmed by requiring cd in drive, are the legitimate customers.


If this is done from unofficial side - it's a crack and no patch then, right? If I understood the meaning of the word "patch" correctly => solely something the Devs/publishers do, to erase code program errors.

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@Instant
But, lets say nobody has allowed legitimate owners of a game title to play it without having the cd in drive - after having spent gigabytes of hd space for the title, that does'nt mean they are doing something right (the publishers/developers), or that its a good idea


Do you know a working different method to assure games are not pirated - if copy protection is not the correct one?

I know games from disk times, where I had to type in manual key words or move circles to find the correct icon (Monkey Island e.g.) - but this didn't work either. Manuals were simply copied, this icon stuff was copied, so gamers could cut it out and use it. What about a hardlock key then? But these USB things cost a lot of money and the consumer will have to pay for it - and as these would not fit into Euro cases or DVD boxes, package costs are higher as well. Maybe online registration then? And what about gamers without internet? Having to write a post card first. And then a Black market for numbers would be created and...
Kiya

#245125 08/06/04 01:29 AM
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there is a limit to it, yes, kiya, u're right.

the cd copy protection is meant to stop casual copying. meaning, u cannot just pop <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> cd in a cd writer & start copying the content out to a blank cd.

if it cannot stop the pirates, what's the point? well, those are professionals, well, at least their skills in hacks are of professional levels. u cannot stop a thief from stealing gold from fort knox, IF he/she sets his/her mind to it & is skilled enough to pull it off. no such thing as security. it's just relative, like einstein said it.

warez are made by those who are highly skilled in hacking the games' protection & get them work without. it's a fact nobody can deny. give them maximum of 2 months & u'll see the crackz (anything that ends with 'z' is seemingly bad) on the net. they're as good at cracking as the copy protection writer are at protecting.

patch - normally made by developers, publishers to fix/enhance a game/software
crack - made by pirates to nullify copy-protection or limit imposed by developers or publishers on a game/software
warez - complete package made by pirates which u can install as if it's legitimate but without copy protection or limit.

hope that helps, kiya.

instant, i do agree on wanting the same thing as u do; no-cd patch so i can play without worrying about the cd getting worn out. however larians will have to protect their 'rice bowl' (chinese way of saying means of living or source of food). otherwise people can just casually copy their work & pass them around like e-mailed jokes. i rather my cd wear out. or find on the net the no-cd crack.



......a gift from LaFille......
#245126 08/06/04 02:17 AM
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don't know how true or ethical is this but, if u must know about it; GameJackal is a program for gamers that want to play their fav games without the cd's in the drive.



......a gift from LaFille......
#245127 08/06/04 06:37 AM
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there are no way to stop warez i think..and i share the same thoughts about the CD requirement...CD requirement force just US (legal players) to put the cd in to the drive but not the thieves..(:( my game doesnt arrived yet but i know some illegal game traders who sell totally cracked Beyond Divinity CDs..you install the game and copy the cracked exe file..its done...And No CD Requirements of course!)
there are many web sites where you can find a Non-CD Cracked exe file too..you copy the file in to the install directory and the whole CD protection is a history..i know even one for Beyind Divinity!!..Coder Groups like "Deviance" or many other coder groups profession starts with cracking CD protection! Earning money from some countrys CD Mafias!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> yes it sound a bit funny or dramatic but its true, there are many underground traders who make big big money from PC Games...they copy thousends of the games and put the cracked file in to the CD..thats it!! In countrys like Turkey, Indonesia, India, Philiphines, Korea, where people cant afford or wont afford 40-50 $ for CD games but cant live without Games too, Underground Traders are like legal stores!!! you go, give 2 dolars and own the game and even play without cd requirement, How can you stop this without regional copyright controls??!!!! But people like Me and you paying twice! 1 for the game (thats ok) and the second for CD Drive (CD-ROM spinning life-span, reading life-span, mechanical life-span (put the game in..take it out)... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />


Rescuer of the Sleeping Princess...
#245128 08/06/04 08:51 AM
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I don't get people who consider swapping cd's annoying... For crying out loud, how much effort does it take? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> It's sad if something like that is enough to irritate someone -- apparently they don't know any better (read: worse) and they don't realize how happy they should be that they don't [know any better]. Geez. Don't mean to sound hippy or anything, just... geez <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

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There is one very important reason that people don't like having a CD in the computer. Degradation of the CD. I know several people who have had their game CD's damaged or destroyed by over-use.

It makes sense that a cd would ware off when you use it. However, cd's ware off if you don't use them as well. I have a few games that worked perfectly years ago, and now just can't be read anymore. They say this often happens with copied cd's, but I'm talking about true, official cd-roms. They just don't last forever, despite what they promised us when cd-roms first hit the market. And over-use? Besides during the swapping, I don't see how a cd can get "damaged" -- isn't it just a laser beam reading the surface of the disk? read: no physical contact. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yeah yeah, I know, just another rant about the same old topic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***
#245129 08/06/04 10:41 AM
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honourcobain:
CD requirement force just US (legal players) to put the cd in to the drive but not the thieves

I agree - if you meant it in the sense => the honest ones are "punished". As long as some people do not play by the rules (and I think this will never happen, regardless of products in every trade industry) - the honest will continue to suffer under consequences, created by dishonest ones. Actually, this drives me mad and angers me. Legal industry had to react to piracy/warez etc. I wish, there would be another way - and I hope (one day) some clever person will think up a method to destroy this illegal market.

But again => how can Devs/publishers protect themselves if copy protection is inconvenient? This procedure causes them a lot of work/trouble/money/energies/employer capacity, too (referring to Lar's article about the problems they had to get the German version gold)

As for unplayable CD and the examples I saw listed here => never had a defect CD. There are games I can't play anymore, but due to my new system, not due to hardware - maybe I'm lucky.
Kiya

#245130 08/06/04 10:50 AM
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The CD laser does in fact damage the CD over time, though the amount of damage varies from player to player.

The laser slowly burns away at the tracks on the CD until eventually they become unreadable (it is a similar process to what occurs when you write to a CD using a CD writer). With most modern drives, however, you may well never notice any degredation as the damage is so slight - nevertheless, it is there.

#245131 08/06/04 02:35 PM
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But again => how can Devs/publishers protect themselves if copy protection is inconvenient? This procedure causes them a lot of work/trouble/money/energies/employer capacity, too (referring to Lar's article about the problems they had to get the German version gold)


Much as I hate to say it, the answer would seem to be that they can't. Documentation things (having to type in a code from the manual or the CD box) can easily be scanned and passed around nowadays. CD-based protection schemes can be bypassed pretty readily, as the existence of no-CD 'patches' for virtually every game under the sun indicates. If there isn't one for Beyond Divinity yet, and I'm in no position to know whether there is or not, it is certainly only a matter of time.

Copy protection is, in my opinion, a scam that the gaming industry at large has fallen for. By and large, it doesn't work, and often creates more problems for legitimate gamers than it ever does for pirates and thieves. And it isn't simply a matter of convenience; it's no big deal if I have to have a CD in the drive, but it *is* a big deal if the copy protection scheme doesn't like the drive I'm using at all. (Which is not an uncommon problem. SecuROM in particular was/is notorious for this sort of thing.)

Though it's certainly nothing new. Older folks (like me) will probably remember some of the old copy protection schemes used on, for example, the Commodore 64 (beside which some of the modern CD schemes seem positively benign by comparison). I can still hear my poor 1541 disk drive rattling itself to death.

So how do you stop piracy? Maybe you don't. Oh, I'm not saying that copy protection should be abandoned wholesale...well, okay, maybe I am, as it's ultimately just a waste of time and money, but I don't realistically expect that to happen. And, for the most part, it probably doesn't *need* to, as long as those schemes don't make games unplayable.

And, for the record, I buy all of my software. (Er, nowadays. All those C-64 games I, er, acquired as a kid JUST DON'T COUNT, okay? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

#245132 08/06/04 02:59 PM
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copy protection, does work.
it keeps a lot of people from copying these disks.
the people who search for alternatives, and know some "adresses" on the net, are mostely more experianced people.
you don't have a clue how mutch people just know of kazaa. and are spending 2 whole days on downloading a movie.

it does work, but not for anybody.


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#245133 08/06/04 04:38 PM
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The CD laser does in fact damage the CD over time, though the amount of damage varies from player to player.

The laser slowly burns away at the tracks on the CD until eventually they become unreadable (it is a similar process to what occurs when you write to a CD using a CD writer). With most modern drives, however, you may well never notice any degredation as the damage is so slight - nevertheless, it is there.


I have finished Arcanum 3 times and about to finish it once again. The CD still runs well.
I have Dungeon Keeper 2 ever since it was released. I play it very often and it still works.
I have Quest for Glory 1 (New 256 colours, not the 16 colours one) and it still runs well.

I am not saying that laser doesn't burn CDs, no, but even your audio CD player plays CD. Will you ask the artist to release a no-CD patch? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

DocBeard,
Very good post. I agree.
My point, though, is: protection companies shouldn't release unfinished protections. Starforce, for example, is very unstable.

the bean. Yes, copy protection does work for those little brats who download something just "cuz itz baaad 2 pyrat!". However kazaa always has no-cd patches and cracks [even if 4/5 of the files of that type you download are RATs, Worms, viruses and Spyware].

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