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A Jedi saying to another one :

"By the Stars ... may the Force be with you !"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

(Which leads me into the question whether the makers of "StarForce" were StarWars fans, hm ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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A Jedi saying to another one :

"By the Stars ... may the Force be with you !"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

(Which leads me into the question whether the makers of "StarForce" were StarWars fans, hm ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


I don't know about that, but they weren't fans of gamers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


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I think the main issue here is that Starforce drivers are installed without notifying the PC owner and are not removed (again without notification) once the game is uninstalled.

I have no issue with copy protection but I do object to this type of stealth installation.

After reading through the threads on this forum relating to this issue I'm appalled at some of the sarcastic responses offered up by Larian employees to this issue. I'm a fan of the DV & BD games. I even bought two copies of DV so that I could give one to a friend. I've brought up the merits of the game with other gamers and recommended a purchase whenever possible.

However - after seeing the cavalier attitude of Larian to what some people consider a legitimate problem I will not be purchasing any future Larian products. Will this have any impact upon Larian? - no. Just thought I'd let you know why you've lost a customer.

Have fun and continued success.

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"...why the hell do you need a backup copy? yeah, i know they're nice - heck, i have a laptop and would love to NOT have to take the disc with me...but try using the CD as it was intended and not as a frisbee - they last a long time!
geez, i've had music CDs, some for 13 years with TONS of play, and they still sound great. just try taking care of your stuff. my guess is, you'll recieve no sympathy here. let 'er rip boys......"

Whoever posted this comment obviously doesn't have kids. Simply put, my kids will destroy a disc in less than a few days and having backups is the only way they can play a game that I paid 50 bucks for. That said, the issue with intellectual property is that the disc (that is, the piece of round laminated plastic) is not the intellectual property, but rather the software code that is imprinted on it. That's why downloading copies of this is illegal. That much almost anyone can agree on. However, software companies want to have their cake and eat it. Once I've tendered my money and have an access number, I AM a licensed user. I should be able to go to Larian's web site and download a fresh copy to recover the data from my destroyed disc.

Software companies don't address this. If someone has paid for a license, why is there no way for the publisher to allow you access to the material if your copy was destroyed? Answer? They don't believe it any more than you do. They treat these things as point of sale obligations only, that is, once it breaks, then you have to buy a new one. So if that's the case, then it isn't much defense against someone copying a disc under fair use rules. They HAVE to allow you to back it up because they themselves don't offer any other way.

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2 questions.


How old are your kids?

And why don't you teach them to take care of the disc, or don't let them handle the discs if they are too young?

In my personal experiance kids are lovely with discs.



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"It looks to me like to like starforce is damaging sales, and future sales. But the companies that use this, only have themselves to blame. They're losing their legitimate buyers, fans, and casual gamers in the process. People who are unsure about what starforce does are frightened of installing games with it, because they lack the knowledge to rectify their system."

I certainly believe that. One of the things that many software and media companies forget is that proprietary rights is a double edged sword. If you don't have a critical mass out there wanting your stuff, then no one will hear about it to even consider buying it. Look at the Apple vs PC model a few years ago. Further, many of the Hollywood stars we have today are only stars because people want to see them; people want to see certain movies because of buzz, or word or mouth. It doesn't matter if that movie or game is pirated or not. If it's good, it will create buzz, and the more that's out there, the more buzz, and hence more sales. Not every gamer is a pirate, most own legit store bought copies. However, if the publisher decided to cripple the store bought copies, then they've effectively crippled their ONLY source of revenue from this. One bad turn is repeated amoungst local gamers to avoid a certain game because the "discs don't work." Even my 10 year old has already repeated this stuff to me. "Don't buy that one Daddy, my friend said that game has problems, they CD player doesn't read them and he had to bring them back." That is usally all it takes for me to walk on by.

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lews,

2 questions.

do you have kids?

how old are they?

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Chud,

No. If I did, well, that would be a little wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


0 years old.



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just a little... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />


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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Me??? Kids??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for making me laugh today!



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"2 questions. How old are your kids? And why don't you teach them to take care of the disc..."

Gee thanks Lews. Now why didn't I think of that. I'll get on it right away.

"...or don't let them handle the discs if they are too young? In my personal experiance kids are lovely with discs."

"Me??? Kids??? Thanks for making me laugh today!"

Gee Lews, coming from someone with no kids, I'm sure you're an expert on how to teach kids how to handle anything. No offense, but grow yourself two or five of them, then talk to me about how to teach kids to handle discs properly. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does kids. That's just the way it is. That's why there are back ups. And frankly, I know of some adults who treat their discs worst than my kids (in fact, I married one).

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Gee thanks Lews. Now why didn't I think of that. I'll get on it right away.
----

I don't know. But I'm glad I could be helpful and you can start! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Gee Lews, coming from someone with no kids, I'm sure you're an expert on how to teach kids how to handle anything. No offense, but grow yourself two or five of them, then talk to me about how to teach kids to handle discs properly. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does kids. That's just the way it is. That's why there are back ups. And frankly, I know of some adults who treat their discs worst than my kids (in fact, I married one).

Ralph



Yep! I am an expert on how to teach kids anything!

Ok, wait a few years!

Back ups? Eh, Bloody lumps!

Well, that last one is true, can't help you there though.

Should I tell him? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> Maybe later.

@ Ralph, most of this is a joke actually.

I know kids can be horrors at taking care of things, I just don't think we can blame a copy protection thats bad because you got kids. Thats all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Make sure they never toucht he discs! Put em above their heads!



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Ralph:
"It looks to me like to like starforce is damaging sales, and future sales. But the companies that use this, only have themselves to blame. They're losing their legitimate buyers, fans, and casual gamers in the process. People who are unsure about what starforce does are frightened of installing games with it, because they lack the knowledge to rectify their system."


@Ralph:so far I have 3 games now with Starforce protection on my PC => Black Mirror, Syberia 2 (both adventures) and BD => no probs in installing either one. No problems with my PC (lock up, stubborn DVD or CD drive). No problem in playing them - Starforce versions do not seem to meddle with another. I'm not sure if the Spellforce addon is Starforce, but no prob here either. My CD read/write is even one that was named as being problematic with Starforce (not detecting the CD). I'm glad, my drive apparently does not know it is on a list of Starforce refusers. Maybe I'm lucky?

@general: I have no burn programs on my PC, no virtual drive - maybe this could be a reason for my non-probs. I don't download anything else than patches from the official sites, driver updates. C'est tout.

In any case, no protection has so far prevented me from buying a game I want to have - I have never burned a CD as a backup. The only CD I lost and had to re-buy was a game I lent to a friend, she broke it by accident, that's life.

I have never (so far) listened to someone telling me => don't buy this game, it won't run on... - I try it out myself.

I can't judge if a protection program damages sales - it doesn't in my case. And as you can see from the games I named => they are not all Larian <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> (just in case someone thinks this gamer here is merely a Larian fan girl and worships blindly)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> @general: And about people not taking care of their CD => yes, I can underline this. I'm in charge of non-book media at my library and wonder how some adults (!) and youths treat DVD, CD-ROM, CD, videos. But this is not the fault of a protection program, hm? We make no backups in our library (regulations) - and I get very angry if I see a CD copy, because a member tried to cheat us <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> by keeping the original CD. If I can prove who damaged it, they have to replace it fully. In one case, I succeeded in blocking a member for a year because of this.
About the 3 games I mentioned => I have bought them for my library, no complaints so far - and members know, I check every complaint on my PC - so they can take another game for free.
Kiya

@general: 4 weeks ago, I had to check 3 games from the library - not sure if Sands of Time was the Starforce proggie, but it turned out this way => the gamer had not installed the Windows XP Service packs - after that he could play all 3. And I know, one of them was Starforce. Wish, I could remember the other 2 (one was a football game). Why I write this? Because it's not always the fault of Starforce... There are so many reasons why a game doesn't run - and in... some... very... rare... cases => it can be the gamer's system.



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Not to belabor an issue that's already been well discuss (as I came into the thread late also) but my final conclusion about CD antipiracy codes is this; while it may stop initial attempts at piracy, the pirates will ALWAYS find a way around it, such that the scheme becomes moot to them; while some portion of regular customers who pays for such discs will ALWAYS have problems and returns the discs, ultimately hurting sales. So in the end, the pirates crack the scheme while the publishers' themselves have hurt sales. So who really wins?

Take a hint from the 800 pound gorilla in software protection schemes (M$). Despite the many phone home registration things that Gates puts into his programs, pirates have always found ways around it, but the bulk of customers do pay for it. If you make it so troublesome for them even after they pay for it, they may look to the dark side just to get the thing to work.

The aspect of "proper care of discs" is also moot. The hardier a technology, the longer lasting. If something is built as a house of cards that can easily collapse, then product longevity is usually adversely affected. It's more about human nature, buying patterns, and the subjective sense of product value rather than coding.

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It is against the law to copy protect discs. I've already stated this previously, and anyone protecting games in this manner, can't really complain about pirates, people who takes their games back after copying or anybody else.

However, I bet Larian (or their pub) don't use star force on their next product, whether it's breakable or not.

From what I can see , you have two kinds of people: "I don't mind protections" and "I do mind protections".

Let's look at the first: Some people don't mind having their rights taken away, and they don't mind others breaking the law. If these people don't want their rights that's fine with me, and if they approve of laws being broken that's also fine with me. It's your choice...

And the other side: People who must have a backup copy of their stuff. Often in the firing line of the above group, who think they should also give up theirs rights. These are also "close relatives" to the pirate industry according to most people, and are frowned upon by most forum members.

It will be a cold day in hell before I willingly give up my rights tho' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by xAcesx; 12/07/04 08:56 PM.

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"...People who must have a backup copy of their stuff. Often in the firing line of the above group, who think they should also give up theirs rights..."

Again, if the industry at large did not treat their products like disposable inventory, but as a true software license (ie you can get another copy anytime you needed to) then we wouldn't be at this juncture.

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And an even colder day if I change MY mind, xAcesx. I only have one thing bugging me - shall I name my Terrier whelp Starforce or xAcesx, when it doesn't cease to tear at the shoe, rattle and shake it, until ears and tail fly into all directions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Quite cute, but that's all.

Frontiers are fix IMO, there is no necessity to discredit those with a differing opinion. E.g. => "worship a certain Dev" or "allow to be stripped of rights" and whatever else you have freely spread throughout the threads dealing with this matter.

In case you find my post patronising+arrogant - might be - I'm just fedup with reading discrediting insinuations and nudges against those who don't mind copy protection. It's not about differing opinions, not meant to cut freedom of speech - it's about the way you phrase it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> - if you can => patch this, please.
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"...Frontiers are fix IMO, there is no necessity to discredit those with a differing opinion. E.g. => "worship a certain Dev" or "allow to be stripped of rights..." Kiya

I agree with you Kiya, that different opinions are bound to happen and we should all learn to live with the fact that the guy next to us may not think exactly like us. That said, the issue of rights is not so much an unreasonable idea when viewed upon the fair use principle under copyright law. This is something that legalist have fallen onto their quills over, as software companies rewrote what is considered fair use out from under the public when the public at large really
didn't understand the issues at stake.

Consider that the idea of only one computer in a household being "licensed" to use a copy of software, that is if applied to any other media venue, would be viewed as patently ridiculous (eg. you buy a book but no one else in your house can read it except you, unless they pay for the book too).

And just because something is "legal" does not mean that it's ethical. Take the extension of the copy protection for the works under Disney's control. The US Congress extended that protection for an additional twenty years despite the long ago demise of Walt Disney, the creator of those works. It's as much to do with control and monopolization, as it is to foster creativity (the original intent of copyright law).

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Well I think that there should be a way that makes it so you NEED to have the disc in the drive, you can install one more then one computer, you CANNOT hack it onto the internet, and can make ONE copy.

You can only make one copy of it, and that one copy cannot be used to copy anything else. And it must work only on some kind of thing where its already been installed.

But the problem is one person gets the game, makes a copy, installs the orginal on a friend's computer, and the friend uses the copy.

Its a tricky matter, copy protection.

But, unfourtently, I think it is needed.

And to be frank, I hope Larian will not have StarForce as their next one. I am saddened by on Gone Gold forums and etc, so many people are going to amazon.com and ebgames.com and posting DONT BUY THIS GAME! And rating it horribly!

Many people do not like StarForce, and because of this, many are saying horrible things about the game and returning it.

This is not a very nice thing to do. Most of them actually say the game looks really fun if they could play it without StarForce.

On Amazon.com and etc all reviews are actually positivie and say good things about the game. Usually int he 3-5 star Range and recommending people to get it if they like RPG's.

I really hope that Larian takes the StarForce off or at least proves to the people who don't believe; that StarForce doesn't ruin their computers and its not a trojan.

They could also make it so in the EULA it says about this.

I will buy the next Larian game, and look forward to it eagerly.
I have had 2 bugs in the game.
StarForce doesn't ruin the game for me.

But I don't want StarForce on the next game, if merely so that more people will buy the game.

Good luck Larian.


my two sense worth.

Last edited by LewsTherinKinslayer13; 13/07/04 05:43 AM.


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