Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
@Kiya

Well, I ain't cute and cuddly, but call your dog what you will. I'm aggressive, goal orientated, and ruthless!

If you look at most of the posts aimed at me; people are telling me that my attitude is wrong, goading me into proving stuff. So if I do it back, what's the big fuss? I took it like a man, so I expect everyone else to do the same <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

And ok, we might have covered this ground before, but take a look at some of the threads (in excess 60 pages!) on the forum. They kicked the [nocando] out their topics and are still going, or have evolved into something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

At least this is a contoversial thread, which IMO can stand the odd reiteration.


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
@xAcesx - maybe you can enlighten me. I just read an article that the British Parliament plans a law about copyright - and that it will be very close to the American DMCA. Can you tell me, if it is already valid, please? Seems to be stricter than the EU law <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=copyrightlawchange1067603633&area=news

forget my question - it is valid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

but what I still not have found is this => which law is "stronger" => EULA or the copyright law? So, if EULA is inconsistent - is this cp law then the correct one or not? don't know how to phrase it.

Quote
With the coming into force of the new rules, the original purchaser, or anyone who "knowingly and without authority removes or alters electronic rights management information" can now be taken to court by the copyright holder.


this deals with tools allowing to crack protection, hm?

[color:"yellow"]@edit[/color] => I was not sure, if the EU law had the same validation for your country - or if you have extra regulations <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - I tried to read the official Parliament text - but my English is too poor for this.


[color:"yellow"]Last edit[/color] =>
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_User_License_Agreement

don't worry, this text is in German - but I can try to translate the part, I find very, very interesting:
Quote
Obwohl diese Verträge oft sehr "offiziell" erscheinen, haben sie in Europa meist keine Gültigkeit: Der Vertrag über die Nutzung der Software wird nämlich schon beim Kauf geschlossen, zu diesem Zeitpunkt ist die EULA für den Kunden jedoch noch nicht einsehbar. Gesetzliche Regelungen, wie z.B. das Urheberrecht gelten auch ohne Erwähnung in einer EULA, darüber hinausgehende Klauseln sind ungültig.


Though these contracts (the EULA) seem to be very "official", they have in Europe mostly no validation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" /> The agreement to use this software is already done via buying - and at this stage, the consumer can't look into it (EULA). Law regulations, such as the COPYRIGHT are valid EVEN if not mentioned in the EULA - paragraphs extending this are not valid.


Hmmmmmmmm, so copyright is more important - meaning this => the EUCD copyright laws... Right? Or... to be exact => the copyright laws of the country one lives in.
don't know about the US though - I clicked in Wikipedia to have this article in English and the last paragraph (the one I translated) was gone and this came:
Quote
Assuming that publishers follow the correct procedures (such as giving the user the right to return the software for a refund), EULA licenses are generally enforceable in the United States.


Last edited by kiya; 13/07/04 09:39 PM.
Joined: Jul 2004
R
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
R
Joined: Jul 2004
"...You can only make one copy of it, and that one copy cannot be used to copy anything else. And it must work only on some kind of thing where its already been installed. But the problem is one person gets the game, makes a copy, installs the orginal on a friend's computer, and the friend uses the copy. Its a tricky matter, copy protection..."

No it's not. Frankly I'm surprised that disc mfgs have not already thought of it. The only reason that people freely give stuff away on the internet is because there is no percieved "at stake" issues for them. The way around this is to make it personal, that is, when you buy a licensed piece of software, that the software incorporates vital data about the buyer, like DOB, address, credit card number all on the disc. You can make as many copies as you want. But I'll bet you be loath to give it away. The technology is already there.

Further, media would not have to be in inventory until the point of sale, when a disc is finalized with the buyer's data. The only thing shops will have to have on hand are blank discs and empty jewel cases. When you buy a piece of software your package inserts are printed right at the point of sale, along with your personalized disc. As each disc is sold, portions of the proceeds will automatically be given to the mfg, artist, publisher, and vendor. Private info is only held on the disc. It's not the major pirating organizations that the copyright holders fear, it's the mainstream casual copying. A business model such as I've outlined would stop the casual pirate cold.

Ralph

Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
Has any video game company ever thought about a Dongol? ( spelling? ) Its a little divice that comes with in the box.

You can install the game on as many computers as you want. You can make as many copy's of the disc as you want. All you have to do is put the dongol into the USB port while the program is running for it to work.

Its very good against piracy, and people can make as many copies of the disc as they want. They can put it on many computers. They can upload it to the web if they want.

The only problem is if you loose the dongol, your screwed. Pardon my Klatchian.

I don't know how expensive they are, but they are suppoused to be great for stopping piracy but letting people do alot of things that people have complained about in this thread.


So, has any company, Larian or otherwise, thoughts of using one of these?

What do people think of these?



Joined: May 2004
H
stranger
Offline
stranger
H
Joined: May 2004
They are expensive and worthless.

Expensive for a ~50€ game. (5€or 10€ for one)

Worthless because, as in about every single sorry attemp to stop piracy, the workaround is consistent in a few modified jumps here and there (and so on)
They are not more efficient than a CD-required protection and as easy to destroy.

As ever, annoying the custommer (broken key hardware, lost key, lost CD, ...) is what you get most.
Pirates and worms do not care.

An online protection is far more efficient (still, there are workaround possible as long as the savegames are on the player's side)


Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
@Kiya

The current law states:

You cannot copy cd if you have to curcumvent the protection. The new law you refer to, is that it is illegal to copy a CD by curcumventing any protections.

This means if you back up your game (with a disc protection on it) you are breaking the law!

HOWEVER!!!

The new law only outlawed the copying of music and DVD movies. The section of this new law, stated games users have the right to backup their games. As the law clearly states gamers have this right, it is also ILLEGAL to copy protect games, as this violates the law granted by the right to backup copy.

So if a game has a protection on it, you can't legally copy it, and thus the law has been breached. Naturally, you will copy it, and the law is breached again!

Publishers CANNOT under any circumstances take away a right that you have been granted explicity by law, this is illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
Sorry, I disagree - I read the EUCD. It refers to PC programs as well and this includes games. This law is valid in UK since December 2003 IIRC - and since Sept. 2003 in Germany. And I did not only read the paragraphs, I read comments, too - from lawyers specialised on PC law. This only in German though, as my English is not good enough for law terms. So, using tools to "crack" cp protection - regardless of the media! - is illegal. Your country had to give in... you're in the EU. There are a lot of countries not very happy about this.

Quote
As the law clearly states gamers have this right, it is also ILLEGAL to copy protect games, as this violates the law granted by the right to backup copy.

Sorry, I disagree - your opinion here is interpretation. The law is not clear about this - a case for the court. Maybe a bit like the large incident about the American judge Kaplan and the DMCA in 2002. This was about films - the film industry won. It will be only a matter of time until one of the large publisher companies will go to court. We'll see.

And I have more bad news for you - about private copies: the EU made another deadline for this. And I only know this from Germany: our ministery is preparing a new law (EU-conform) making it more difficult to create private copies. This will involve paper and digital media. There is a petition going on right now in Germany - as scientists fear for the freedom of research, publishing etc.

Don't shoot the messenger, please. It's not about right/wrong, I don't want to prove anything to you - but I advise reading legislative info - even if the British Parliament may not plan this private copy law at the moment (not only Germany was very hesistant to validate the EUCD) - as your country is in the EU => it will come. If I can find the English equivalent to the novelty, I will post it. I'm concerned, because I do not know, how the impact on libraries will be.

Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
How do you work around them then? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

They are alot better then copy protection.

And I for one as a gamer would easily pay 5 to 10 more dollers to buy a game if I knew it would be better against piracy. Once the company has no piracy, they don't loose money. Once they don't loose money they don't have to raise the price of the software. So then the price lowers 5 to 10 dollers.


This thread is one of the reasons I hardly go on the forum anymore. Somebody posts something, and immediatly the ' ur gay ' reply. Though more sophisticated. Still, we need to stop arguing guys. That includes me to.



Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
Kiya

The law here was created to bring us line with the EU (and a spin-off of the American law).

If I take away someone's legal right for anything, I can be subjected to prosicution.

For example: I buy a game, and read the EULA. I decide I don't agree with the EULA (let's say I want to make it available for download), and cancel the installation. I go back to the shop and tell them that I read and understood the EULA, and disagree with it. The shop owner says "You can't have your money back" and I say "Ok then, I must therefore, still own the game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />"

At this point who owns the game?

It ain't the shop, is it? I won't send it back to the publisher, because I'm unwilling to lose money on the purchase, and I don't need to install it (agree with the EULA) to upload it.

Is it mine to pirate, download, upload now? Hmmm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

If you look carefully, I have had my rights taken away, which broke the law. The same law I've been talking about. I cannot be expected (by law) to pay for a product that I don't have. If I send the game back to the Pub' I would lose £10 postage. At this point, someone would become LEGALLY liable to compensate me for the lost £10...

There's also another side to this, but that's a story for another time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lews

I can see your at great pains to think of a way around all of the CP chaos. It's a difficult task, and the only answer I can think of is: EVE Online... I like reading your ideas though, keep it up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: 0x07328BA4
rat Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: 0x07328BA4
~The shop owner says "You can't have your money back" and I say "Ok then, I must therefore, still own the game "

At this point who owns the game?
~

I don't see how this would be different from buying a car while not holding a driver's license. So you bought the thing without reflecting on the legality of your intended use of it, though luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This doesn't need an EULA that holds up in court, basic ownership rights are already covered by 'default' copyright law (although contrary to the car, the copyright owner could use the EULA to make certain normally-illegal uses legal, a la the GPL, because it's his decision to make).


PS I don't speak for Larian.


They can blow up all two mijne pocket.
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
Quote
xAcesx:
If I take away someone's legal right for anything, I can be subjected to prosecution.

And this raises the questions: WAS this right taken away? IS it a right in the first place? Or is it only a permission? This is what I'm trying to find out. The EUCD was validated in some EU countries to strengthen protection of intellectual property. So, if a Pub/Dev uses cp protection, does it collide with the EUCD? Or not? (Ok, you say, it collides - but I'm not sure about this. I need legislative info => court judgement e.g.)

And I'm not sure if Wikipedia is a reliable source with the quotation I posted. So far I have already found protests of consumer associations - but these protests and critics are not the law, you see? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />
Gee, I've even read a 2nd quote from our Federal Ministery of Justice - but this quote was from 2002 - before the cp law became valid. Guess what? This quote is no longer as 1st hand quote on the site of this Ministery <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

What I still have to find out is this: is the EULA inferior to the cp law? Does it collide with the new/old cp law. Is it legitimate - what do courts say to EULA etc.

As soon as I can lay my grubby hands on the new EUCD commentary in book form, I might be more knowledgeable - ordered it and am waiting. I hope to find answers there. But even if - I would still not know if these answers are purely on national basis (not touching the UK law) or - if this is EU => international binding force within the whole EU.

I'll try to find an answer in the NJW (a German law magazine, made by the Lawyer association. in combo with the Federal Bar Council) Oh, using an abbreviation for "association" is nocando
Only assuming now => the Wikipedia is correct and EULA has no binding force because cp is the law... what then? Did the EULA permit something the law does not cover in the first place? Is it simply a mere piece of "paper" you can use to wipe the ground? And this... is a permission a right or not? If it is a right => under which circumstances? Are they defined and conform with the cp law? Etc. etc.
Assuming => the EULA has a binding force (law term) - does it collide now with the new EUCD? Does it have to be modified?
Kiya <headache and groping in the fog>

Junge Union, Initiative

Link is in German => the young Union in Hessen, part of the CDU (conservative political party in Germany) are starting a campaign to ensure the right for creating a private copy. They say this: as it is prohibited to crack cp protection in order to make a copy (EUCD), consumer rights are decreased.

This is criticised by another organisation who is fighting for user rights as well. They say this: you can't allow a private copy within a family and then forbid it at the same time for friends. Why I'm posting this? Well, if the 2nd part to change CP law(private copies) will become valid, your might not even be able to wipe the ground with EULA.

Last edited by kiya; 15/07/04 07:20 AM.
Joined: Mar 2003
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2003
AFAIK there has been a court sentence here that says that a software must be taken back, if the user does not agree with the EULA, if the EULA was not readable before the software was bought (i.e. printed on the box or pinned at the wall in the store.


Anyway, what I initially wanted to post here is the following:
I still play lots of old Dos games. More Dos than windows games, actually, which is why I still have Win98 installed. Recently I had the problem, that upon exiting Dos games (not all, but most of them), the Computer would freeze up completely, forcing me to hit the reset key.
Upon reading on how Starforce affected several people's systems on GoneGold, I realized that the problem had occured around the time I installed BD. So I used this cleaner utility Lynn has uploaded, and - Lo and Behold - the problem is gone completely.
That means that Starforce effectively blocks me from playing 80% of the games I want to play. Great Job! I payed 50 bucks for blocking all my favourite games!
When O when will companies care about the people who buy their products, instead of those who don't buy them?


"In jedem Winkel der Welt verborgen ein Paradies"
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Russia
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Russia
What's the buzz... Have you ever tried Alcohol 120%? It emulates StarForce 1/2/3. Yet I am not sure it's capable of emulating StarForce 3.3...

The web-site is Alcohol-Soft

If you want to deal with the problem, start with the search engine. Try to find any information about it. What endless flaming on the forum? Well, that sounds a bit rude. I really understand people who don't have an intention to look through dozens of pages. That's their choice.


elen sila lumenn omentielvo
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
[Linked Image]



Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
Why are you so obsessed with closing this thread?

The are loads of threads bigger than this on the forum, go and close them first then come back in here.


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
I never said I wanted to close it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
Quote
~The shop owner says "You can't have your money back" and I say "Ok then, I must therefore, still own the game "

At this point who owns the game?
~

I don't see how this would be different from buying a car while not holding a driver's license. So you bought the thing without reflecting on the legality of your intended use of it, though luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This doesn't need an EULA that holds up in court, basic ownership rights are already covered by 'default' copyright law (although contrary to the car, the copyright owner could use the EULA to make certain normally-illegal uses legal, a la the GPL, because it's his decision to make).


PS I don't speak for Larian.


I really don't know what the correct answer is, that's why i'm asking.

You can take a car back for a full refund. ("Yes" car credit, UK owners will know this) Ok, to complicate the matter, let's say a bought the game for a friend, and he doesn't agree with the EULA, and gives me the game back...


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
Then you can return it to the store. Or keep it.



Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Germany
Razor, Alcohol is illegal now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - the discussion (and I consider it very peaceful atm) is dealing with the problem of legal copies - as some programs circumventing tech. protection measures are not allowed anymore.

So far - we're having 2 dogs in the ring, tugging at a bone from the opposite sides <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> - the Terrier and a female Bloodhound <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> (no offence meant)

Acexs is on the consumer right side, considering tech. copyright protection measures illegal and wants them removed (correct? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> )
and I'm tugging on the other side. And if this thread goes on, I'll threaten to not only translate part of the German cp law - but even quote citations out of the "EU Directive for Harmonisation of certain aspects and related rights in the information society." (Directive 2001/29/EC)

This directive had a deadline for 2002 and was supposed to be ratified for all EU member countries => and... it not only deals with music and films, but with computer programs, too. This directive was set up to acknowledge and protect intellectual property. As laws still have the territorial principe, this directive still has to be ratified in each country - but it will come. Germany has ratified already (too late as always) - and has included PC programs.

Another aspect between him and me is the EULA and if it is valid or not. I don't consider our bantering a fuzz, just a difference in opinions.

Errhm, does anyone wish to read the Directive??? I have a link for the 1st hand info. Oh, yeah, and what about TRIPS? (Nope, not a disease <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - Trade aspects about the right of intellectual property)... Hm, what else can I offer? WIPO! also called WCT. (World intellectual property organization - a diplomatic conference on certain copyright and neigbouring rights questions)
Kiya <rubbing her hands in glee <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> )

Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Russia
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Russia
Sorry, kiya, I can't understand, why Alcohol is illegal, because the program itself is written for the purpose of legal copying. And it's all up to the end user what to do. Anyway, it's just stupid - what if you CD just breaks up in the drive? I've exprienced such cases even with licensed CD.
Are those laws about copyright to stop lawful (or even lawful good) customers? I always thought that they are made to protect us but not to harden our life. If we try to find roots of the problem, we all 'll come up to the creation of such organistation as goverment.
I get a complete "matrix" feeling (is this word allowed on a RPG forum?) when I start thinking - in the beginning, about 7 thousand years ago first states were formed. And they were created for the only purpose of survival. They were to help their citizens, to protect, support, help them. And what do we have now? Goverment turned out to be a supervisor, and it's citizens are imprisoned inside the machine. All in all it's just another brick in the wall...
Who can be sure that we are not inside some kind of matrix if we can't even determine what is reality, or do we even exist? All what is left is to believe.. Well, it sounds quite pessimitic, but... enought of that, let's get down to business!


elen sila lumenn omentielvo
Page 6 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  Larian_QA, Lynn, Macbeth 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5