Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Duel Daggers / swords

rapiers were in use (as the primary weapon throughout europe) from about 1500 to 1700. that is quite a period of time!

most rapier users would have destroyed a longsword user. it's faster, lighter and a thrust weapon (organ puncture). this is partly why it replaced the longsword.

however, a good sabre user could probably defeat a rapier. a rapier (or other thrusting weapon) relies on the lunge to gain distance, but this leaves the arm exposed. a quick (and accurate) slice will take care of the arm holding the blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

also, i would happily take a sabre and poniard against a longswords (as you refer to it).

oh BTW modern fencing is based on a weapon that would kill you in a second. just because fencing uses dysfunctional (mostly) weapons - in the sport! - does not by any means mean that a 'real' version wouldn't leave you weeping in a puddle.
that's nearly as silly as saying that police practicing with paint bullets couldn't kill anyone with their guns!

YOu are just an Idiot....

In the gae of the Rapier, Great swords were not used. Beyond Divinity is NOT that age, in the Age BD and DD are representing all of them swods are the same speed..

Get your head from your behinde, modern fencing uses useless thin rubberband pieces of crap, no crap thats not the real deal. But you did say Modern fecning didnt you, smart [nocando].

Talking to you is like talking to an Orc who thinks it knows everything and just has to disagree with what everyopne says because, they are the "expert"

So I give up screw this thread, you can cover it in your Ego. Im not comming back here.

Byblos, I don't know if I miss your point - but this thread was originally about gamers wishing for dual weapon usage, right? How far should a game represent RL conditions in your opinion? I fail to see how the additional choice to have dual weapons (and leaving it to each gamer then) can be a problem?
I don't recall if I used this dual choice in games myself (cause I prefer a 1-hander+shield in melee) but I wouldn't mind this for others. Think of magical spells - they have no claim for RL as well (errhm, at least, I hope not <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> )

<post reminder to myself> Lego's ability to slice into 8 directions might be practical to chop up ingredients for a salad quickly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - and imagining this in a game, with me as opponent... reminds me of cartoons, where I'd form a nice little heap on the ground, neatly sliced into 8 pieces <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> - orc salad surprise with ketchup.
Warriors... hotblooded warriors <sigh>

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <sigh> It's been a while since I've seen that much hypocricy... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Its been a while since i have seen the need for a "painting room"...
*grin*


For those who are not used to the *custom* terminology..... a paint room refers to the boxing rink.... where the boys can "paint the walls with testosterone" in their attempt to look the "most macho"

In a little more pondering tone..... Can one actually get narrow minded enough to look through a key hole with both eyes open?????

Just because Napoleon didnt use dual weapons, by no means means that it never existed.

I am also in favour of making orc salad in my missions..... i wonder if they can make a option to sell that, or to gain some strengh from eating it???? *grin* (joking)

I would not like the ability because them things would be fighting me with dual weapons and some how stand an unreasonable chance. Dont you think it would be not as much fin if for say they make it unrealistic as people dont bleed out blood they bleed out wine and you get drubk when you get hit then you are revived by the sun in the chamber of horripulation if you pass out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />

Thats kinda what Dual weilding is too me, Just TOO much fantasy.

I saw a show on a martial art form (don't recall which one) some time ago where they went into a bit of detail on various weapons. Dual wielded weapons tend to be shorter, so someone using a single sword can have a better reach. A single sword has to defend against two weapons, but it has greater flexibility, can be switched (depending on the sword) between one handed and 2 handed stances, and having an arm free gives you better balance.

To be included in the game, a realistic / balanced dual weapon system would restrict weapon sizes (obviously only one handed weapons, but possibly excluding the largest such swords), require a high level of training (perhaps with sever defensive and accuracy penalties at first) and higher stat requirements and have a slightly slower attack speed than a single weapon (perhaps comparable with sword and shield). There are various things that could be tweaked so it would not be overpowered. I'd expect effective dual wielding to require lighter armour to allow freer movement.

Well D&D balances it by reducing your accuracy, and requiring significant training for it to be effective (three of four feats out of a possible six (exculding epic characters)).

But there is always the case of what gamers want. You could balance guns and tanks and laser weaponry into the game if you try hard enough, but it wouldn't be fun.

Hm, I just looked up my Spellforce warriors => some of them have hammer+dagger - or 2 swords - sword+dagger. Is this unrealistic? Not that I'd change it, I'm glad if they survive, but would you find this combo unrealistic? Or are rules different for this RPG strategy mix and would only spoil a proper RPG where I don't have armies as opponents and more single enemies or small groups?
Kiya

@Byblos: Ok, I see your point about the unfair advantage if your opponent has dual weapons - but when I play, I'm sort of used to have powerful enemies and have to try to find a way to survive (with magic e.g.). I gather from this thread that some like this additional dual option and thought => why not? The more options are there, the more gamers will want to try out the game. So my approach does not have the "realistic" touch, true.

Sure i like powerfull enemies, but only in ways that seem reasonable. Image playing Divine Divinity and end up getting your behind kicked over and over froma guy with a lazer cannon.... Thats how dual weilding is to me.

I played the Spellforce demo, but didn't have/use dual weapons. A dagger with any one handed weapon is realistic, but I would expect a defense and/or speed penalty. I don't know how they balanced it, but presumably wielding 2 swords would not double your damage and attack rate without any disadvantages.

boy oh boy, i think we found iron fist! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> byblos?? iron??

i'll start off by saying it was never my intent to 'show you up' or make you look the fool.
i simply offered a few facts as opposed to thoughts . if you took them as direct attacks,
i'm sorry, that was not my goal.
that of course changed somewhat when you decided to belittle a sport i've participated in for as long as i have - especially
when you simply have no idea what you're talking about.


this was your initial post, NOT talking about a specific time period or even particular weapons - just a blanket statement that is
quite inaccurate on a couple of levels. first we (and history) have show that dual weapons were far from useless and indeed
used. secondly, while diligent training would indeed be required, one needn't be ambidextrous to utilize dual weapons effectively.


buddy - i showed you 'somewhere in time'. and no, they don't swing at the same rate.



ha!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
dude - 'Bekatowa' ?????
you've played too dang much castlevania . news alert - bekatowas don't exist. this is a fantasy sword in itself ! your hypocrisy
is staggering!
"Bekatowa (special weapon):
This sword is very powerful if you get it early. If you kill Sword lords (there's one in the outer wall), you'll get it.
You can also get it in the Clock Tower."



longswords were not weilded in a modern fencing stance (meaning sideways). the sword would be ineffective if wielded so.
you criticize fencing, yet invoke a modern fencing stance. curious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />


but you are so right - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

hmmm. i guess so. sorry for my ignorance. you obviously know SO much
more than i regarding swords/fencing. i don't know what i was thinking offering a few facts regarding something i've been
involved with for over 30 years. my bad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

in the future, please be careful spewing such banalities - e coli is a real problem. show some concern for the rest of your
family (this of course assumes you actually have one). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



first of all, exactly which age is being represented? please be specific.
are we talking medieval times? dark ages? renaissance? italian renaissance? early medieval?
oh, and again - no, they weren't the same speed.


so, so wrong.
great swords were used well into the 18th century (that would be the 1700s in case you don't know that), with rapiers
coming in during the late 1400s (btw that would be approximately 250 - 300 years they co-existed).
just so you don't post a comeback based on absolutely nothing, i'll help you out a bit -
these are weapons found in the game BD (and their timetables)
rapiers (as i said) came into play about 1480 to 1700
cutlass developed after the 16th century (1500)
sabre, about 1470
longsword was an effective weapon for centuries
although often incorrectly attributed with a broad-blade, the broadsword is rooted in scotland, from the 17th century (1600).
ba$tard sword (maybe the 'bigsword'?) was a european sword used primarily in the late 14th and 15th centuries (1300 - 1400)
falchion - 1000 to 1500

so we see weapons that exist on a 'real' timetable of about 100BC to the 1700s with most existing somewhere in
the 1300s to 1700s. rapiers existed during the time of greatswords, sabres, cutlasses, longswords and ba$tard swords. so
what the hell age are you talking about???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

i hate to say this, but nowhere in history have we seen such things as 'shadow swords', 'bigswords' or
'ethereal', 'spiritual', 'splitting' or 'earth' arrows (among a lot of others!). the game IS fantasy. duh. come out of your darkened
house and you'll see that we also don't have wizards, elves, bow-using skeletons, raanaar or orcs (though apparently they exist in your neighborhood. hint: move!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />


hmmmm. appears to be a broken promise.......


many heavier swords fell into disfavor by the end of the 1500s as guns made armor obsolete. the loss of armor made
the heavier swords far less valuable.

raze - i think perhaps you speak of the dao. it's a light cutting weapon with a very thin, swept-back blade and swept-in handle.
It is normally used with a single hand, but sometimes two were wielded at once, sacrificing balance for offensive potential.

one last thought.
byblos, stop assuming everyone (or even SOMEone) is attacking you.
the insights originally offered were done for the sake of knowledge - not just for you, but the entire forum. i sat upon no
high-horse when making the statements. it was wished to merely pass along information being held to others perhaps
less informed.
nowhere was an attack warranted.
please recognize you've brought this upon yourself.

I have an Idea of what I am talking about.... Name one nation in the history of time that its military used dual weapons and they defeated anything... No one.

Bekatowa doesnt exist I know, Its a cool word for Longsword. I have in my room a weapons and armor encyclopedia and the only thing labeled for use as an offhand weapon is the main gauche which is a puny .4 meters long thin little poking instrument.

Thourought all History, no one using dual weilding has ever prospered. Using two weapons guarentees. Less accuracy, more chance to screw up, using a weaker arm, ect ect....

I know what I am talking about once again. IM talkking about you pick up two Longswords (Bekatowa) and try figting with them. If you are lucky you wont stab yourself.

Using the slag term Bekatowa isnt hypocrosy... Thats using a slang term, lemme guess calling a Zweihander a Great sword is also hypocrasy??

NO I wassnt describing a fencing stance, Im saying if you have two weapons you want them to both be in arms reach of someone, as if you have one sword or a shield you will stand side ways so you can use your shield better.

I personally hate how fantasy games have things called shadow swords and stuff like that i wish there was a game with the least amount of that as possible.

Im saying a fancer using a Rapier, ya know when people didnt even wear armor anymore, would not be caught fighting a fully armored guy with a greatsword. That is the only situation where they would have an extreme speed advantage.

I didnt make a promise... I just said it, but I changed my mind. Or is that Hypocrasy too?

Usually in a military situation, during the time periods being discussed, Spear and shield, with a sword at your side was the most useful, however there are accounts of people using two weapons while in battle. You say no one in history using dual weapons has ever prospered. The chinese utilized dual weapons, the japenese utilized dual weapons, the morro's use dual weapons. Today the philipino army and united states marines
have all trained in philipino martial arts which consists of dual weapons, two shorts swords or sword and dagger. The main gauche that you mention as useless was a very resourceful defensive and offensive weapon.

You keep commenting on how the second hand would be weaker and less accurate, but these people would have trained every day of their lives with both hands. I will agree with you that two longswords is ludacris, but two short swords, sword and hand axe, two daggers, Rapier and maine gauche, two clubs, etc... are all very realistic and historically used forms of fighting.

You also commented about how during the time of the rapier armour wasn't being used anymore, actually it was quite common for duelists who didn't fight to the death to wear a tightly knit chain shirt. As well as certain calvary still wore leather and plate breastplates. The rapier was designed to seek out the weak spots in armour but it was not the cause of the decline of armour, the long bow and use of gunpowder are what made medieval style armour useless.

Also a person wearing a full suite of armour was not as slow as many people seem to believe. There are accounts of knights boasting about their ability to vault onto their horses and do cart wheels.

Go to a pilipino martial arts school, or a chinese martial arts school, hell even an SCA event and watch just how useful dual wielding really is.

Anyways, on topic, I was dissapointed that there was no dual wield skill offered in the game simply because it limits the possible variation of fight styles and the use of weapons. I hate having two really nice one handers in my inventory and only being able to use one of them.

[color:"orange"]I have an Idea of what I am talking about.... Name one nation in the history of time that its military used dual weapons and they defeated anything... No one.[/color]

No nation has armed their armies with dual weapons. It's too difficult to train them. If there were dual-wielding soldiers, they were individuals, elites. I don't know if it happened or not, though.

[color:"orange"]I know what I am talking about once again. IM talkking about you pick up two Longswords (Bekatowa) and try figting with them. If you are lucky you wont stab yourself.[/color]

That's right. None of us have had training.

[color:"orange"]Using the slag term Bekatowa isnt hypocrosy... Thats using a slang term, lemme guess calling a Zweihander a Great sword is also hypocrasy??[/color]

If it is just a simple long-sword, then no. It's no so much the term that was hypocritical, but the fact that it went along with "too much fantasy".

[color:"orange"]NO I wassnt describing a fencing stance, Im saying if you have two weapons you want them to both be in arms reach of someone, as if you have one sword or a shield you will stand side ways so you can use your shield better.[/color]

They could both be within arms reach if you move your body, not always facing them, like twirling. While you only attack with one sword at a time and block with the other, you can switch hands in an instant, making the other hand offensive. This can confuse your opponent and make it more difficult to predict your moves.

[color:"orange"]I personally hate how fantasy games have things called shadow swords and stuff like that i wish there was a game with the least amount of that as possible.[/color]

Fair call. There's Witcher coming out, based on the Neverwinter Nights engine. You play a fighter class, but I think there's still magic in the world. Unfortunately, there's not much call for extensive realism in these styles of computer games.

You could make a Neverwinter Nights module that has no magic in it.

[color:"orange"]Im saying a fancer using a Rapier, ya know when people didnt even wear armor anymore, would not be caught fighting a fully armored guy with a greatsword. That is the only situation where they would have an extreme speed advantage.[/color]

A good fighter knows when to run. A nimble fencer may not need to fight, dodging and hindering the slugish guards to get to the gold. I certainly wouldn't go into a fight like that!

Och, I got my behind kicked over and over again by a certain lady called Josie. I think, that's what boss enemies are for IMO, until I find a tactic to defeat. And even if she had a laser cannon => there still would have been a way to win. In fact, the larger the variety of attacks and weapon choices are, the more I can experiment and find my own style. So, I wouldn't mind dual attacks - what can a dual fighter do if I choose to polymorph, freeze, stun or encage? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <cackles>

And if some gamers would prefer to practice dual themselves => why not? I do understand your point when it comes to online gaming and only the enemy has this advantage, but the gamers don't. But are there games like this? that enemies have weapon choices the gamers don't?
Kiya

I'm not good at combat - but I take what the game gives me and try until I succeed, regardless of cussing, trembling fingers and countless reloads <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - I like powerful enemies

missy! My point is wouodnt it seem out of place to you for someoen to have a lazer cannon!!!

Nope - if I take the laser cannon as a sort of blinding flash... wasn't that what Josie did? Not that I liked her blinding me though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Byblos => me not Missy, me very old Dragon Drow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

i bet i'm in the great minority here (what a shock! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />), but while a laser cannon would not satisfy, i hope like heck DD2 has tougher monsters and considerably harder difficulty settings.
playing through DD and BD on hardcore left virtually no challenge at all from the monsters - even bosses.
without the 'fear' of dieing, the story is all that's left to carry the game - DD succeeded amazingly. but most games can't pull this off, story alone.
so my greatest hope is that they deal with the only real 'complaint' i had (that i couldn't live with) and make the game more difficult - at least the option for the players to make it so.
but no laser cannons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

you dont think a star trek lazer cannon or whatever would fit in perfectly with didinve divnity? Ok now im certain your all a bunch of creaitans