Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback About Astarion after Patch 6

After Patch 6, I thought about it for a long, long time, I emailed the same to Larian, these are my personal opinions and I wanted to share them (I'm not a native English speaker so I use a translation app).

The first thing I want to say is about the evaluation of the ascended Astarion kiss animation. The three new kissing moves are really sexy, but they also make me unsettled, because Tav/The Dark Urge's expression is not enjoyable, but looks very scared, as if they don't know why Astarion has suddenly changed his temper. And here's the paradox: Astarion's ascent was facilitated by Tav, who was the only one willing to lend him their eyes to look at his back. In a way, the man who made the pact with The Archdevil Mephistopheles was actually Tav. He/she knows that the ascension ritual is very evil, and still willing to sacrifice 7,000 spawns for Astarion's ascension, how can such a person be as innocent as a pure white flower? As Astarion says in the game: "Our hands are both stained with blood."

So, the fearful expression of Tav when kissing Astarion perplexes me. You knew the price of ascension and then you chose to be evil, and you became a spawn of Astarion. (If you regret doing so, you can read the file and go back to the non-ascension route.) Since I chose to let him ascend, then I am ready to be the villain.

The second contradiction: the mind detection check of the night of Ascension. Players who choose to let Astarion ascend know that on this night, they can detect Astarion's thoughts, revealing that Astarion believes Tav engaging in a romantic relationship with him is demeaning themselves, and he thinks Tav enjoys it. With this premise known to Tav, can Astarion's display of dominance be seen as catering to Tav's preferences? (Of course, I know there are also reasons to be affected by the evil forces of Ascension ritual.) But from this point of view, the relationship between Ascended Astarion and Tav appears to be consensual BDSM, so Tav's expression of fear is somewhat unreasonable.

Moving on, I'd like to discuss The Dark Urge and Astarion in the villain route. Astarion's relationship with Tav after his ascension is directly owner and pet, but with The Dark Urge? (here after referred to as DU) DU himself is a Bhaal spawn, both in terms of background and personality, he is much worse than Astarion, and he/she dares to plan "The Absolute" and oppose the Bhaal's blood, indicating that DU is a character with courage and ambition, (supporting Astarion's ascension may also have reasons for wanting to use his power). However, in the relationship with Astarion, DU submits so easily? Players choosing DU also seek more control. Larian should at least give DU a branch of resistance to kneeling, similar to how Lae'zel's romantic plotline can assert dominance through intimidation. (This relationship is already unhealthy, so let it be as bad as it gets!)

The next thing I want to talk about is the non-ascended route of Astarion (I don't know what to call this line, I just refer to it as non-ascended Astarion)
As far as I know, many players choose not to have Astarion ascend not out of BDSM preferences but out of compassion for him never see the sun again. So many people love non-ascended Astarion, he is gentle, happy, capable of love, and the spiritual trauma is slowly being healed by Tav (Who wouldn't love him? He's so adorable!!!) So players don't love the non-ascended Astarion any less than the ascended Astarion! However, recent updates have made me feel that Larian doesn't value him as much, although the game as a whole is biased towards the values of kindness, but non-ascended Astarion has really too few things, His dialogue and kissing animations, as well as the performance after the final battle (I really feel sorry that he was hurt by the sun, as his lover, I really want to rush over and cloak him, or give him a hug) So I'd like to say: Larian, please add more content for non-ascended Astarion in future patches!!!

I've finished conveying my personal feelings and evaluations. Now here are some suggestions:

1. Please modify the expressions of Tav/The Dark Urge when kissing ascended Astarion to make them appear less fearful and unwilling (know that this result is your own choice!).

2. When adding something new, please try not to completely replace old content (because each expression has its fans).

3. Increase more content for non-ascended Astarion. Such as dialogue, lines, kisses, and hope to see the sunlight again (I really, really want to hug him!! And his kissing animations ; he only has one new one, but ascended Astarion has three new animations! Please be fair!!)

4. Please consider adding options in future updates for Astarion that satisfy player's desires for control. (Such as the DU resistance to kneel plot mentioned above)

That's all I wanted to say. Thank you so much, Larian, for bringing us such an excellent game and shaping such a great character as Astarion (he's the character I've loved the most in my life). I'm also very grateful that someone can read this all; I would be very happy to have someone to communicate with here.:D

You make very good points but there are already two other threads in this subforum in which we are discussing the new kisses subject, so if you want more communication it might be a good idea to move your posts. There is an all things Astarion romance suggestions and feedback thread here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=919717#Post919717

Thank you! Your posts are a lot of content and I need a little time to read them,very glad to see that I'm not alone!

You are definitely not alone. I absolutely agree with what you say about Tav with the new kiss animations for Ascended Astarion.

I don't think they fit with the narrative. It's definitely not in chacter for a Dark Urge to be so passive and terrified of him. Even on a non-Dark Urge playthrough, it's unlikely that Tav is going to be like that. Tav is clearly a strong character, they have faced numerous monsters and demons and triumphed, so these scenes just don't feel right to me.
Tav still has the option to break up with Astarion so it's unfathomable why they would submit so meekly to something they are not enjoying. They are not a damsel in distress and they've been an active leader in every other respect.
It's not consistent with Astarion's character to be so abusive. Elsewhere, Astarion asks Tav what they want and clearly wants to please them.

I too, would like to see Tav asserting more control here and looking like a willing participant. I do think it's in character for Ascended Astarion to play power games and try to dominate, but for me to enjoy these kisses I'd need to see Tav being more active (e.g. bite him back if spawn), and to get more out of it, making it clear they are indulging him and happy to play along up to a point.

As it stands, I don't find the new kisses hot. Astarions actions are abusive and I found it disturbing to see the player avatar looking plainly terrified and with no agency in this situation.

I also agree that spawn Astarion needs a little more love. He is the most popular romance partner, if I recall correctly.

Can't agree more! Just like you said, Tav and Dark Urge are not such weak and passive character. I don't know if Larian is trying to tell players that ascension is bad (you'll get a bad lover) but players need more initiative and possibility, not be lectured.(if I express it correctly)


by the way I noticed that there's some new kiss voice for non-ascended Astarion in the file of patch 6,but haven't set in game yet (he's sooooooo sweeeeeet!!!!) I hope the next patch will see them, and new kiss animation (please don't screw it up Larian!)
After defeat the Netherbrain, the comments of Astarion's teammates when he was hurt by the sun, and everyone became more sympathetic, What touched me the most was what Minthara said: "Astarion is cursed to flee the sun as I am cursed to walk in it. Do not belittle him with pity-he is a survivor, and will thrive upon what bounty the darkness provides. There is life in him yet.”

I really hope un-ascended Astarion does not get any sweeter towards the player character unless the player character gets options to be drastically more decent towards him ... it's nice if they change the dock though.

According to the stats they published some time back, Shart is the most popular romance. None of the guys even made the top three, if I remember correctly, but I might be wrong about that.

It’s true that the male companions didn’t make it into the top three, but it’s important to remember that it’s likely because of demographics. Women and queer people almost certainly don’t make up the majority of players, so someone like Astarion, while having a very dedicated and enthusiastic fan base, will still not have the same kind of numbers that someone like Shadowheart will.

Yeah, for me too, Astarion is my favorite character in all the games I've ever played. <3 Thanks for your posts! I totally agree that Astarion deserves a lot more love on both paths. I can and want to play only the Ascension path, and would like it to be shown realistically without violence to the player and story logic, but I think the Unascended Path Astarion should get much more hope and warmth as well. In the epilogue, only Astarion can't be kissed (SA can only be hugged, and you can't even do that with the Ascended). Now and for every attempt to kiss him in the game, the player gets a "penalty".


Yes, I will definitely take her in the next walkthrough (if that walkthrough is possible) for those words alone, even if she never says them in my walkthrough.

While there are other threads on the subject of Astarion and his romance, some threads can get so big that good points and opinions can get lost in how huge the thread is. I think the points brought up in this thread are formatted well and also expressed in a detailed and accurate way. I agree with all the feedback given by Pearll in this thread and they express the things I've been thinking much better than I could myself, so thank you for making this thread. I really hope Larian reads your feedback and takes it to heart.

It is nice to see all the voiced opinions on the matter, tbh. It shows that we all care about story and making sure that as many people can come away from the game with a fun experience. Also, to discuss the subject like adults.

My take is that there are some things that need to be improved and that we need more balance between the two paths/options.

The way Astarion is presented and talks to us, he is an unreliable narrator of his past before Cazador. He can't even remember the color of his eyes and barely talks about a "boring past as magistrate". That could be a lie, a partial truth or him not remembering much. For all we know, he could have been a corrupt evil magistrate, a neutral/selfish one, or even a chaotic good that pissed off the wrong powerful people and was defamed to get rid of him. We do know that after the supposed gur attacked him, Cazador turned him. But vampires turn people to use them, for fun or even to enjoy corrupting and destroying someone good because they get pleasure out of that. The truth is that all he can remember is being a slave to Cazador. Act 1 is the first time he is "free" from Cazador and he is testing what he can do and that new "freedom". He is also trying things and learning what he likes and doesn't like. But in this act, he is still heavily influenced by Cazador and what or who he made of Astarion.

In Act 2, Astarion realizes for the first time that he is not yet free from Cazador. He still uses sexuality as he was taught, he still behaves as he used to be when he was a controlled spawn. And he thinks as he was taught. This is common for both Ascended and not ascended. We do know that Astarion thinks that power would free him and allow him to do what he pleases (that is what he believes). But does Astarion want power and control or just to be free? That is what his dilemma is about. Does he really want to take Cazador's place or does he want to be able to decide his own place and what he wants to do? I think at this point not even Astarion knows.

In Act 3 it is clear that Astarion needs to get rid of Cazador, both literally and figuratively speaking. The trick here is that we do know that the Ascension ritual was a pact with a Devil and thanks to Wyll we do know that those pacts have strings attached and you end up being in debt or forever trapped/linked to the Devil that offered the pact. Which is reinforced by Haleep and Raphael. There are always unintended consequences to those pacts. And that leads us to the 7000 spawns whose souls are meant to be sacrificed. In D&D sacrificing a soul is worse than "just" killing someone. You can raise someone from death, but if the soul has been consumed, that is no longer possible. A soul goes to their god/goddess realm to enjoy the afterlife, but not if the soul has been consumed. So consuming 7000 souls is not a "mercy killing" (although someone can rationalize it as that to not feel bad) and doing that might taint, change, or consume part of the soul of the people doing it. Plus, you don't know if there is another "Maryzora" who would "pop up" after to demand things from the person doing the ritual. Cazador doesn't go into detail about the pact in his diaries, so going along with the pact is like going along with using the tadpole powers. Larian chooses to not have consequences for using tadpole powers and might choose to not add additional consequences for the ascension ritual, but it perfectly could be like Wyll's pact and have "small print". We do know that Astarion is impulsive and usually jumps at the chance to get power, but that sometimes he doesn't really want it if there is a price to that power. That is why you have a chance to persuade him to not ascend (and you should be able to explain to him that he might be losing his freedom or part of him if he goes along with the ascension/pact.

Both choices are valid, ascend him if you think that it is what he wants or tell him to not ascend if you think that it is not what he needs and that what he needs is freedom to re-discover himself. At this point and after ascension/not ascension is the very first time that Astarion is free from Cazador, but even now he might still need to get rid of his influence. And here is where I think Larian confuses Astarion development with Tav/DU character. While Larian should write Astarion, his words, and action as they see fit (origin is tricky, because that should be decided by the player), they shouldn't decide how Tav/DU (player character) react to what Astarions says/does. And they fail both Spawn and Ascended Astarion. With ascended people have explained how disappointed they are with Tav's face in the new kisses. With Spawn people complained about joking/laughing when he burns. And we don't see Astarion personality/changes there.

My suggestion is if they wanted to show AA dominance, then maybe they should have tried to make HIM demand a kiss from Tav. Or him asking Tav/DU to wear some revealing/stylish clothes for Astarion at camp. Or even showing possessiveness in situations like Harleep, Maryzora, and Halsin. Example: Tell Maryzora that Tav/DU only has sex if HE says it before Tav has a chance to answer. And him putting down Maryzora. By the way, exerting control usually means being less free, because you have to devote your energy and attention into that. The second you relax that control, you might lose it. So you can't just simply disappear for one night to enjoy dancing. Or if AA disappears one night to create spawns to use in getting power in the city, when he comes back, he would probably interrogate Tav/DU.

On the other hand, Spawn Astarion might want to try new things with Tav and propose things to do. Like spending a lot of money on things he likes, asking for presents, or stealing things he likes to gift something to Tav. He can even ask to do/try things for his sake. So what if he was the one who wanted to have sex with Halsin? Or even try a threesome. That changes the dynamic. Or he might start doing pranks on other companions and Tav. Does Astarion like music? or art? Does he likes dancing? Someone who suddenly is free after so long being a slave might want to "try everything" and "do everything" just because.

So have Astarion do things that reflect his path once Cazador is no longer there and then let Tav/DU react as they see fit. Offer choices for Tav/DU and let the player choose. And try to balance time/resources invested in each path so fans won't feel neglected or that there is only one "real path"/a path worth playing.

To sum up, the same effort that has been put in Shadowheart, should be put in the other romances. In Astarion case, that means adding a couple of scenes/interactions in Act 3 after Cazador. Let him ask for an (expensive) present or clothes he likes. Let him ask for a portrait from the artist. Let him disappear one night to do who knows what and later find out what has he done now that he is free (I would say stealing Gale's underwear, but since many people have done that before, something else XD).

@EMC_V: Have you completed the romance in Patch 5, just prior to Patch 6? Or after patch 6? Just out of curiosity. I agree, both paths can be valid but stick with his personality so it is not so fractured like it is now. His story is now wobbling in a sinkhole that is about to collapse. It doesn't even feel like Astarion anymore, and this is just my opinion. I can enjoy either path with the extreme changes from the creator of his story to whatever it is right now. It is very frustrating that they made him into two completely different beings and it makes no sense. Meph's ritual had the potential to create a new monster and states the pact is fulfilled, with no other requirements, which is what it says in the game. But they reverted him to a true vampire that walks in the sun with cycles of abuse. Not how the original writer explained it and that is the reason I purchased the game, tbh. Spawn feels like (TO ME ONLY NOW, I am not speaking for anyone but myself) that I am his controller or master. I'm not too fond of that option either. I want him to be able to be free and allow him to not mask his feelings or just turn into an abuser when it wasn't in the in-game story. At least not the many campaigns I played, at least. Everyone has the right to headcanon, but does it have to play out for everyone else who doesn't have that headcanon? That is the ultimate question of pushing it too far to the spawn vs ascended. We all should be coming together, getting rid of the fighting and bullying (if some of you only knew....my gods), and working to keep a group of people who enjoy both sides of it.

I do like some of your suggestions though. They would show the spawn path as more of the Neutral evil of DnD character that didn't have to hide everything and gets to be working through stuff, but still be himself in I want a pretty new XYZ. He still has to go out and eat if you forget to feed him as I see many do in their playthroughs. This is before the end boss fight, obviously. There are dialogue choices that I would not expect him to have on either side of the path, whether it be spawn or ascended. The writing and story do not flow together as well anymore and there are weird little things thrown in that don't fit either path, coming out of nowhere. Allow the Spawn variant to be himself, get into mischief & chaos & do the witty little things he has always done. Yes, he still needs time to heal in BOTH paths, neither will be fixed in a day or whatever. That also bothers me, that he changes instantly. Uh..... I am not asking for reality because it is a game, but a little more realistic wouldn't be out of touch.

As far as the dominance, I don't think it needed to go into abuse. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, but instead, let him have something that is an "Us" thing than an "I am going to make you wish you were never born again". Once again, real-world vs realistic vs fantasy. A dark romance is not that hard. There are a lot of lines that were drawn in the sand that were crossed and BOUNDARIES crossed that shouldn't be there, in my opinion. But some fun things to do, I am for those types of things where his personality shines through instead......I am ALL for that for both paths. He didn't turn into an unfeeling beast. He still has them, but let's get the balance back for both paths. So everyone can enjoy. I am trying to look at this from all parts of Astarion with and without Tav/DUrge. He acts completely different with Spawn version vs Ascended vs Spawn Romanced vs Ascended Romanced vs left alone with Cazador in the world vs Origin. Most of the versions stick closer to his personality & character, as well as in his DnD alignment. But what they have done to the romance portion is just one note on one side versus one side changing completely and both being out of character in many ways. I am trying to keep this neutral, to spark conversation rather than attack and problems. I would rather have healthy real conversations without fighting and discuss our favorite character without the negative issues that come with the discourse. I want to discuss things among adults as opposed to my choice is the only way, blah blah blah. That hasn't worked so far.

Before. I made a save before the ascendant ritual so I could play both paths without having to start from the beginning. I'm lazy like that hahaha And that is why I said that Acts 1 and 2 are the same arc for both romance paths. Up until the point that you ascend or do not ascend Astarion, the scenes are the same and regardless you talking about helping people or being more power-hungry, you are allowed to pick both paths anyway.


Fair enough. To me, Act 1 and 2 work (more or less). The romance and the character would benefit from more interactions like Shadowheart has. Just in Act 1, Shadowheart is allowed a full Shar's temple, plus a fight with Laezel, plus you have a dialog option to "connect" with her in case you "missed it". And so on. Act 2 makes her personal quest part of the main quest. And after that, when her arc should have been finished, she also has another quest in Act 3 so she can have closure. Plus you can ask her what she likes (you can't do that with Astarion), then gift her the flower. Well, you should be able to ask Astarion (or other characters about what they like. Sure, with Laezel you ask about gith things and that is similar. But with Astarion, just a little about Cazador and his past. If you were able to ask what he likes and latter gift him something (like the painting or clothes), that would add to the feeling of closeness and things not being only about Cazador and Tav/DU. And if after Cazador, Astarion had another personal quest that allow him to get closure or settle more into his new path (ascended or spawn), that would make the romance or character arc work better. But that is my opinion.



I agree. Some personality traits should be common to both paths. Astarion enjoys fun, he has humor sense, he has style and I can see him caring about his looks and clothes in both paths. He is a hedonist in both paths. So him enjoying drinking your blood or sex and nice and expensive things should remain in both paths. He caring/loving Tav/DU should also remain, even if the way he shows it changes. Note: I strongly believe that Astarion should have the golden pantaloons. XD We should be able to gift them to him to wear at camp.

https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Golden_Pantaloons


They don't really offer much details about the pact. Raphael (someone a Tav or DU with high Int and Wis shouldn't trust) tells you about sacrificing souls to be able to walk in the sun and get rid of the vampire limitations (except drinking blood, I guess). But he doesn't tell you if there is other consequences. Raphael might be vomiting information. And when you explore Cazador's room and dungeon, there is mention of the ritual, but doesn't offer details. Considering Wyll's pact, who knows if "completing the ritual" comes with extras? You complete the ritual and Astarion ascends, of that changes his nature and that means extras, we don't really know. And that is ok. Even if the pact is finished, the act itself would affect both Tav and Astarion, since being willing to sacrifice 7000 souls leads them into an evil path that would also affect future choices. To me, not knowing works.


I agree that it is a problem. Evil ShadowHeart doesn't become abusive even if Viconia, her example, was. Astarion could be a true vampire that loves his partner and is perfectly nice, educated and caring with them. In fact, a good way to show "evil ascended Astarion" that cares for Tav would be if he killed a child or someone good for a minor offense to Tav/DU. Or in order to gift something that the murder victim had. In seeing the murder or discovering it, they can allow Tav/DU to react horrified or pleased. That way you get: not abusive to Tav, but still evil and monstrous. Hell, even a combination of paladin Tav with Ascended Astarion might work if in AA mins he is the one doing the dirty work so Paladin Tav could continue living happily (and ignorant) not having to face "thought choices".



To me, that is because lack of choices/options. Excluding drinking the drow blood, Tav/DU is not allowed to ask "What do you like? What do you want?". The scene in the graveyard works because he is the one saying he wants to bury his old self and a new life. And he is the one asking for sex. He wants that but respect of Tav says no. The problem is that at the end, he asks what Tav wants, but Tav can't ask him back so if feels more like a common decision. And he doesn't have more interactions or a closure quest like Shadowheart. He is not shown doing things on his own initiative.


I don't want an abusive Ascended Astarion either. What decides if Astarion is abusive or not is consent and boundaries. AA respected (I don't know if he still does) if Tav doesn't want to be a Spawn. The problem is that if Tav chooses to turn, Astarion turns Tav into a Spawn instead of the vampire bride that you mentioned in another tread. And if you say no/disobey, Larian has chosen to not respect that. Here what I would question Larian is, why they decided to do that with Astarion but not Minthara or Shadowheart? Because it would feel wrong for them. So then, they should treat Astarion the same and not make him abusive. Also, another question I ask myself, why you can dominate Minthara or Laezel in sex but not Ascended Astarion? Both Minthara, Laezel and Astarion seem to have dominant kink (note: consensual domination is not abusive), but only the woman can be turned to submissive and be dominated. Why?


I think Spawn Astarion would work better as chaotic neutral. I mean, he likes the owlbear cub, sometimes he approves of being nice. He likes teasing gale (why don't we have a relationship/friendship arc between the two?) and is more playful than evil. Sure, he is selfish, but he shows empathy for the other spawns and people he likes. Not the people he dislikes, obviously. XD Liking expensive things is not evil.



Or they could give him another quest for closure like Shadowheart has. That would be the upper city DLC with Astarion finding his way after Cazador, getting a hold on the city or getting to erase Cazador while deciding if he want to be an adventurer, look for other ways to stand in the sun or helping the spawns. It could even be related. Then add a heart for Karlach and a friendship arc with KArlach+Wyll and Gale+Astarion and there you go. Also, fix the relationship if Halsin is involved so it makes more sense. After all, both Halsin and Astarion have been slaves and can help each other to heal.


Consensual dominance is not abuse. Of course, boundaries should be discussed and respected. So that is an scene/conversation missing for that path (also Tav faces). Astarion should say what he wants from Tav and Tav should be allowed to answer back and set boundaries. That would fix a lot. I'm not into D-S, but I'm all for allowing choice for people.


I also enjoy conversation. And I think that many of the problems can be fixed by allowing more character options and adding interactions like the ones allowed for Shadowheart. I mean, when Astarion says that he knows you enjoyed the bite, I would have liked to be able to say something like "I liked you, not the bite". But we only have, "yes I liked it", "lady never tells" (which is the same as I liked it) or "it hurts". And when he is having fun teasing you with the "sweet picking lines", I wish you were able to tease him back by saying even more cheesy and absurd lines. The scene works regardless, but still. I'm all for letting Astarion have fun and for having players be able to interact more. Let's hope that at some time they use some of the feedback to fix things and instead of adding even more content to Shadowheart, they finish the incomplete (Halsin and Minthara) and flesh out the others (Astarion and Wyll).

Player dialogue lines for Astarion are little bit terrible in general. Next to Astarion's beautifully emotional lines the player's words often have a cool detachment to them even when dropping the L-word. It just creates an imbalance when he thanks you for all the things you have done for him, but your character cannot reply in kind - and I am sure you can come up with something for all the Origins including Durge. Allowing the PC to be vulnerable or appreciative of Astarion as a person (not of his moral decisions) would do wonders - in my opinion at least. ^^ But I am a broken record on that topic.

Writing is difficult. It takes time and effort. My feeling is that LArian has devoted more resources to some companions than others. As a result, some dialogs aren't as fleshed out and work as well as others. I might be wrong on this, but just the amount of scenes, interactions and quests, says that Shadow Heart and Laezel have more content and work put in them. If the same amount were put in the others, we would probably start to see more and better options to interact with Astarion and both paths would work better.