Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Your headcanon of breaking the cycle of abuse is not affected in the slightest if the TAV's face is changed during kisses with AAstarion. The meaning you want to give to the story will remain the same, also because since the release of the game kisses were normal with AAstarion and I don't think this has ever affected or ruined your headcanon of considering AAstarion abusive.

Maybe if the Vampire Lords felt "alive" whatever that meant, after their rituals. And they had a faithful companion in their eternity there would be no "cycles of abuse".
I won't say about violence - vampirism and Faerun in general are violent.

In general, playing a vampire couple can be different in DnD there were possibilities.
Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires.
From killing each other to total union.
Like a BG3 game where "to save or make chaos" you decide.
(Until you decide to put patch 6 on and decide to kiss Lord Astarion, then sorry you're a scared victim of abuse, there's no other option. Happy valentine's day by the way!)

Verbage is irrelevant. The point is the game makes a show of when he's lying to you, via directly telling you.

Also, to the point of him "lashing out." Yes, he says nasty things when you hurt him. That's a very common thing. People say drastic things during heartbreak. It's not healthy or nice. He's a vampire lord. He's not going to be sweet. Why are you suddenly taking him at his word during a breakup, during highly volatile emotions, but assume he's lying in all other dialogue? If you think he's lying, then that characterization needs to be consistent. And not only when it fits a particular argument.

1. I don't believe it is. I think "is he lying or not", what is real / what is just fantasy is a theme of the romance.

I know that some forum members (whom I deeply respect) believe that the Larian authors are incapable of writing scenes with layers of meaning but I disagree. I think a single word change change the meaning of a sentence and that is deliberate

2. I think that second video underlines the point that this not a consensual relationship. You are his. Forever. You thought you had a safe word? Think again.

( Or until his skull joins Cazador's and Vellioth's. And then one day your spawn will . . .)

Yes it's lashing out but sometimes people reveal themselves in moment of anger. And he just revealed his opinions on consent. In vino veritas

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is, "Yes, he's an inhuman charlatan lord vampire who went through a vile demonic pact, but he really does love me. He's not always this way."

I can't help but think KillerRabbit is spot on with the cycle of abuse angle.

Personally, I think the fear of Astarion is great. It adds so much. The story is deeper for it. That's a wonderful repercussion of the storyline. A bit of a cautionary tale. I'm glad Larian chose to do that. Too often, players are treated with too much grandiosity, in my opinion. As if they're special chosen ones who are going to have fulfillment no matter what.

I applaud the dark reality and hard choice. It makes everything so much more meaningful.

I'm curious. Are the people who support forcing a facial expression on Tav's face also against voice acted Tavs? If so, then they're quite hypocritical. People argue against voice acted Tavs because the tone or voice may not be what the player envisions for their character. Yet it's ok for the game to determine whether Tav enjoys a kiss or not? If forcing expressions on Tav's face is going to become a thing, then let's make sure Tav gets voice acted, for a more immersive experience.

I'm a bit baffled that you insist going in circles like this. People have already told you that those who enjoy the AA story know he is his evil self now. Yes, he is manipulative, but not because he hates Tav, but because his love has been twisted to become obsessive and he hasn't learnt to evolve beyond the only way he knows how relationships work. He manipulates Tav by telling them what he thinks they want to hear to make them more compliant and to keep them on his good side. And of course, as anyone with low self-esteem who has been handed too much power, he's lashing out if Tav doesn't play their role. If he was really as abusive as it looks in the kiss dynamic with Tav's scared face he would not even bother to put in the effort, he'd just insult and belittle them and there would not be an epilogue where you can play the evil power couple.

All of this has nothing to do with us asking to change the Tav's facial animations, though. Tav/Durge is the player's character and it goes against the whole spirit of a roleplaying game to take over the player character and imposing feelings on them like this. If Tav/Durge is happy with the arrangement or appalled by it should be up to the player to decide.

And it actually still is up to the player if they never press the "Could I kiss you?" button - a button just there for fluff to have some romantic moment for those who like this stuff. Because the game gives us the chance to navigate through all dialogue options from becoming his spawn up until the very epilogue without ever seeing his worst side (which you only get to see if you deviate from his vision for you as a couple). We have player agency to play our Tav as his content spawn all the time except for the kisses.

I do not really understand why people argue against players who want to roleplay a character who is totally on board with the whole arrangement. The eerie feeling of "Welp, this might not end well" is still there in the story for us as players to understand and enjoy. We are not our characters, they are just a role we play. We can separate fiction from reality.

And I do not understand why people argue against players who say that the kisses looked too much like real life domestic abuse and it made them feel uncomfortable or have episodes. From what I've seen/read there's quite a number of real life abuse victims among Astarion fans. Some have written to Neil and thanked him for his great performance and that he has given them a voice and a way to cope. In that light the facial animations are simply in really bad taste.

Tav does have a voice. I don't advocate for many more spoken lines because I think it would clutter up the scenes and slow things down when you're picking dialogue options.

There are also numerous examples of scenes showing how Tav is feeling, including dialogue. Executive choices are made throughout because it's impossible not to make choices.

In the room with the unconscious woman who is changed into a mind flayer, Tav says something along the lines of, "That cannot be our fate!" It's a statement that makes sense in the game, but you could have a character who you envision as far more relaxed.

These things are all throughout the game.

Imagine for a moment that years after getting involved with a known charlatan who was also a vampire lord you decided the relationship was unhealthy and wanted out. You then got the opportunity to complain about how Astarion was acting. And the person you were complaining to looked at you and said, "You got involved with a known charlatan who was a vampire lord. What did you think was going to happen?"

How can it be a "non-consensual" relationship, if we are the ones who choose to stay with him after ascension, if we are the ones who agree to be transformed into spawn, if we are the ones who can support him in his evil plans? Regarding the fact that he doesn't allow you to leave him during the epilogue, it is indeed a negative consequence of your actions, but if you voluntarily let yourself be transformed (there is actually the dialogue option in which the TAV asks to be transformed into a vampire ), you already know from the beginning that this can happen, and maybe you don't want to leave him?. And in any case you can easily leave him at any moment before the ending and despite being his offspring when you see him again later during the party, he does nothing to force you to return with him even if he could do so.

Gladly. You are wrong.

AA doesn't love me. He doesn't love anyone, he's a pixel man.

Yes. I would wager he's trying to hurt tav in that moment. Because Tav just hurt him. That seems very in line with his character.

I just think it's so interesting that instead of providing feedback on ways to improve your own gameplay on various threads, there seems to be a theme of providing feedback to take away from others gameplay, that in no way affects yours.


Edit as to not ignore @killerabbit:
"1. I don't believe it is. I think "is he lying or not", what is real / what is just fantasy is a theme of the romance."

He straight up does the Grinch smile when he lies. It doesn't reach his eyes. And his gaze shifts around. It's cartoonish. And very heavy handed.

You are right, and it's annoying. But two wrongs don't make a right. This is still no excuse to put a victim face on Tav when they could have chosen something neutral.


No one is complaining about Astarion's behaviour though?

Let's face it: Anyone who ascends Astarion without realizing that it's his bad ending will end up reloading and keep him as a spawn.

They will quickly realize he is bad when he talks them into turning them and especially during the turning. They may even try to argue with him and get the abusive dialogue. Do they stay with him? No. They reload back to Cazador and make sure he doesn't ascend. The people who ascend him and keep him ascended, want what they get with Ascended Astarion, all of his evil self. The rebellious dialogue you can choose with AA that causes him to verbally abuse you is there for people who still think they are his equal and don't realize the power shift that occurred.

It is possible to be on the same page with AAstarion for the rest of the game without him becoming angry or abusive. Of course this is done as an evil character, generally. It can also be a good character who is naive or one who is ok with being submissive and likes the security AAstarion provides. There are a number of ways to roleplay a character that is happy with what get in AAstarion. So again, explain why the negative expression on Tav's face in the kisses in these scenarios make any sense?

Because you can't say no later. It's like the very old notion - once enshrined in law - that after the wedding night the wife consents to all subsequent requests made by the husband. Only this story has a supernatural element.

And remember the bonecloaks and the restored Baelen. These ideas were on the mind of the author.

Or to use another analogy it's like regimes that have one election and then president remains in power for the next 40 years.

Several people complain about Astarion, but to put that aside and address where you're coming from...

I'd suggest that's because there's this fantastical head canon going on. To search for an example to help it make sense: it's sort of like when kids are playing. They are shooting each other with fictional lasers. One kid clearly gets another kid with the imaginary laser. But then the kid that got hit says, "Nuh-uh, I have a force field." It's being reluctant to accept the pain and consequence of the fantasy. To want the cake after eating the cake.

But that's not who Ascended Astarion is. He is a charlatan. He is a vampire lord. He went through the vilest ritual imaginable thanks to a pact with literal devils. There is a darkness in him that views Tav as nothing more than a possession. Ascended Astarion is incapable of love. He is, simply put, a monster.

And anyone choosing to be with that monster is in a dangerous situation. The love is one sided and inevitably abusive. Tav can tell him/herself all day that, "This is fine," but this is not fine. This is sitting in a room on fire.

I think we're getting off topic. It is quite useless to argue about what could happen in 100 years between AAstarion and the TAV. We will never know and everyone is free to imagine what they want. Let's think about the present and what is the main theme of the discussion: the expression of the TAV which, for many, is seen as an imposition, taking away the player's freedom to imagine his own character. Not to mention the negative consequences on the psyche of some people. Nobody is asking for AAstarion's character to be changed, they are asking for the TAV's face to be changed during kisses also to give players the chance to enjoy the game as before, without feeling nauseated. This doesn't change anything for you: you are enjoying the game as always, it makes no difference to you if the TAV has a happy expression while kissing AAstarion like it was before patch 6

It makes a big difference to me.

I think there are a few posters in this thread who could perhaps reflect on whether they’ve made their point and could just let others have their say without feeling the need to repeat, effectively, they’ve not changed their mind. Not everyone can have the last word, and if some folk don’t take the high road we’ll be going round in circles forever!

It’s clear that some people object to the latest changes, some support them, and others are somewhere in the middle, and that’s perfectly fine and everyone is welcome to say what they prefer and why. At least as long as they’re expressing themselves within forum rules, and keeping things calm, constructive and positive.

Part of that is being avoiding overly emotive language and personally directed comments when arguing against others’ positions. But another part is avoiding becoming defensive and lashing out when others disagree with our views, no matter how passionately or strongly we hold them.

Given it feels as pretty much anything that can be said about the central question of Tav’s expression has been said, I’m comfortable if people want to talk about Astarion’s story more generally here, as long as it is constructive and friendly and those who don’t want to get into a detailed discussion ignore rather than object to the discussion happening. Though please also consider whether one of the other Astarion threads that have proliferated recently might be a better place for wider discussion.

Thanks all!

The narrator says otherwise...

So why didn't you ever complain about it before when the kiss with AAstarion was normal?

It impacts the integrity of the overall story. And yes, I've complained about that many times. Every time I see something that makes the game better, I applaud. Every time I see something that I believe makes the game worse, I frown. I tend to communicate those feelings through a variety of outlets.

This is a change that makes the story better, in my opinion. I'm not sure why you can't take my opinion on this at face value.