Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I have serious reservations about these two suggestions.

1) A trigger warning - I'm not sure Larian could word this in a way that would be effective and not leave the company looking rather dodgy, and I don't think they should try.
I sincerely doubt Larian wants to put warnings of graphic content including non-consent and sadism onto BG3. Making such a change now, so long after release would not be good for business because it would give potential customers a false idea of the game. I can imagine the resulting publicity would be rather negative too.
Every other character in this game romances their romantic partner in the traditional way. ie. the couple enjoy each other's company and all interactions between the NPC and the player character are portrayed as being enjoyable for the player character. A.A. is the odd one out.
Adding a warning to the entire game rather than changing a couple of animations for a single character seems disproportionate and wrong-headed.

2) Modding - Look, I know, PC is the master race. However, the game is also on out console. Like many people I don't own a gaming PC powerful enough to run BG3.
Mods should be for fun stuff and fluff in my opinion, not for making significant changes to the game that only some players will be able to enjoy.

A few people are literally ignoring that Tav has positive answers for Ascended Astarion, and if it's a story about an abyss in the epilogue, should have been done:
"Be quietly silent."
"Freedom?"
They've added role-playing here, though.
Lover's ally "We are spectacular and flourishing" and the damsel in distres, princess in the dragon's lair.

But some people in this thread don't see or want to see beyond the captivity of bias to anything but abusiveness and just agree with each other trying to ignore the facts.

Facts: Frightened, unhappy Tav from abusive kiss would break up with Astarion, tadpole. If Tav didn't break up, wouldn't approach Astarion 6 months later "I didn't want to leave you" – 6 patch.

the problem is that this is not a dom/sub relationship. This is a relationship when "a woman is afraid to leave a man who beats her because they have a child together and the woman is morally depressed and cannot resist.".. To put such a message into a gaming relationship is simply unacceptable. Tav and AA do not have children and the main thing is that Tav can leave at any moment, because Tav does NOT have a moral injury and Tav has a strong will that is not broken, and if it were not for Larian's limitations, Tav could just as calmly intercept Astarion's hand and explain: "Astarion, this is not the way to do it and I I don't like it ."

The velvet glove approach, probably coming in the next patch: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TV48ZSg2mY

Yet again, it's not 100% clear whether he can truly compel Tav and is just saying things to make them believe that.

It's an empirical question and I don't know the answer but when I see trigger warnings I think "I'm glad that the people are sensitive enough to include one" I see it as an opportunity for the company to communicate that it cares about its players

Yes, the modding community does have its flaws. But, truth be told, I think the chances of a change are slim but I would note that mods aren't just valuable for what they do for the individual playing them they also provide feedback to company. "what are the popular mods this week"

We know about Astarion and the theme of abuse. It's all anyone can bring up when you talk about Ascended Astarion. I see a lot of conversations in other places (not necessarily this forum) shut down by people just repeating that he's abusive, when the people who started the conversation just wanted to talk about other aspects of AA. People here wanted to leave feedback on Tav's face here, and yet we have lots of posts telling us stuff we already know about AA like it's some revelation. What does that have to do with being unhappy about their own character's face? Not much. Astarion can be as evil as Larian wants him to be, but that doesn't change the fact that lots of people's characters wouldn't react like that for a whole variety of reasons - and those reasons get ignored for the most part because people just keep repeating stuff about "cycle of abuse" and "AA is supposed to be bad!" Ok great! He can be bad! I like it better when he is, I chose his route based on that in fact! But I'd just like my character's expression to not be forced to be fearful. The end.

I had not considered that, thank you for pointing it out.

I think this mod and ones like it had an impact

https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1713

Do we actually have reasons to expect that AA would keep Tav trapped in their relationship if Tav just left?

The game is somewhat contradictory on this point. On the one hand, he does laugh in Tav's face if they suggest breaking up after defeating the Netherbrain. He's also very dismissive when Tav suggests that freedom would be preferable to the life of decadence he is providing them with.

However, I find it curious that he doesn't compel Tav when they become his spawn but break up with him while still tadpoled. If he were truly a controlling monster, I don't see what would prevent him from using his influence to bring them to heel, as it were. Instead, the suggestion (somewhat gleaned from cut epilogue content) is that he deems forcing them to be with him as beneath his dignity. If Tav can't see how wonderful being with him is, well then it's their loss. It seems likely he'd just write them off as another idealistic idiot and never think of them again.

He honestly seems to view Tav as special, better than everyone else, albeit not an equal partner in any sense of the word. My impression has always been that he wants Tav to choose him freely and enth, and that Tav's adoration matters to him even post Ascension. If anything, Tav condoning his behaviour gives him license to leave any potential guilt behind; as in, "What does it matter if people think I'm a monster? The one person who counts sees the truth". The most telling line, to me, is when he admits that power is lonely when he isn't partnered with Tav in the epilogue. There's not much reason for him to do this, in terms of being manipulative.

I think what I'm trying to express is that even if AA were to become abusive to future spawn, that conduct probably still wouldn't apply to Tav; and I actually doubt that he's going to abuse his spawn based on how he describes his aspirations. If anything, I imagine that Tav would be complicit in any future acts of violence, as a gleeful co-conspirator. They'd be continuing the cycle of 'power and terror' together, as it were, by subjecting Baldur's Gate to their bloody whims.

[quote=melgreg]Do we actually have reasons to expect that AA would keep Tav trapped in their relationship if Tav just left?

The game is somewhat contradictory on this point. On the one hand, he does laugh in Tav's face if they suggest breaking up after defeating the Netherbrain. He's also very dismissive when Tav suggests that freedom would be preferable to the life of decadence he is providing them with.

However, I find it curious that he doesn't compel Tav when they become his spawn but break up with him while still tadpoled. If he were truly a controlling monster, I don't see what would prevent him from using his influence to bring them to heel, as it were. Instead, the suggestion (somewhat gleaned from cut epilogue content) is that he deems forcing them to be with him as beneath his dignity. If Tav can't see how wonderful being with him is, well then it's their loss. It seems likely he'd just write them off as another idealistic idiot and never think of them again./quote]

The answer to that is simple. It's established that the tadpole cancels out the compulsive power a vampire has over their spawn, so he can't compel Tav.

I think melgreg is saying that there's nothing stopping Astarion from bringing Tav back after the tadpole is gone, even if they broken up while the tadpole was in effect. Tav is still their spawn - but the break up sticks.

or the whole point is that AA can't actually control Tav in principle. Because technically, we can drink his blood at any moment and consider ourselves a true vampire. We can literally use a bite on him, so from the point of view of DnD, Tav is a true vampire

Yes, that is my point. The breakup would in no way have to stick post tadpole if AA didn’t allow it to, assuming he can compel Tav and has no regard for their desires.

If anything, if he’s truly monstrous (with no room for nuance) I would fully expect him to drag Tav back and laugh in their face about how they made an eternal commitment.

Really, I am trying to advocate for the position that the game is better when it has ambiguity. There should be room for people who want to see the cycle of abuse narrative AND for those who want their dark romance. The game has left space for both, in many respects. Neutral Tav faces, as we had pre patch , let everyone continue to enjoy the game as much as they did before.

It’s not about there being one correct interpretation. I think making things black and white, instead of grey, makes the game less interesting and engaging.

Yes, I agee. It was my intention to explain, just changing the faces (and let the body language of Tav as it is) would then be a special kink especially in the bite kiss. In general, some people like kinks, some people like d/s, some people like normal kisses. But almost everyone dislike the scenes how they are now (non-consensual).
As long as the scenes are non-consensual it is SA/DV mixed with sexual deviance.


Thanks for the link. Hot hot hot xD So cheeky, arrogant and flirty at the same time

He couldn't compel you to stay by his side, either physically or mentally. When he says, "you didn't leave me, I let you go," he turns things around because he's arrogant and doesn't want to look like a jerk who got dumped. "I let you go", you hear that he hides the truth in a very teasing way, but flirts with you and wants to impress you, when he says he's not a controlling monster, you hear that he would like to have a little more control and maybe he himself realizing actually behaving controlling. He missed Tav. And cute how he pretends to have been oh-so-busy. Trust in him is the most important thing to him. The emphasis is on ready, the ready is meant very honestly.
Uh.. this clashed so much with the occ patch 6 "Could I kiss you?-scenes", that you cannot describe this ooc patch 6 stuff other than if something very destructive and contemptuous wants to intervene in this complex and enjoyable story to turn it and everything connected to it into shit.
And it is much more than just writing a preface to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, which presents the tragic end as a heaven's punishment for unbridled passion and disobedience to parents and advisors. It is more eradicating the story itself. Whether intentional or accidental, it is obliterating.

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I used online translator, I hope you will understand me at all.

Everyone says that the kisses of the 6 patch for AA suit them and only the expression on Tav's face does not satisfied them. But it can't be that I'm the only one who doesn't agree with the kisses themselves? At least with the nuances.
My logic is as follows:
We all agree (at least AA lovers) that AA still loves Tav. It's obvious that the relationship has changed, and he's an evil we all know it, but the love remained. Obviously, there are some Tav's is (not important evil or not) who would like these new kisses and they would not look scared (in general, I agree that players should not be deprived of the freedom of agency), so the expressions of the Tav in any case need to be changed. That is, AA loves Tav and they love him, everyone is happy.
But there are Tav's for whom these kisses would seem unacceptable, unpleasant and unloving, and if we assume that AA loves Tav and would give them everything they want, then he would give them kisses that they would like.
The best solution would be if the kisses that we observe would depend on the choice in the night of turning (be gentle/rude). It is not necessary to add some new one, but in this case leave the old ones, or even return the old peck that was in patch 5.
For the guardians of morality, there is nothing to worry about, these are still toxic relationship, after all, it was obvious even before the new kisses.

By the way, I would also like to ask. What do you think about the interpretation of the dice roll on wisdom before kneeling for the first time? It seems that everyone agreed that this is not so much about kink and sex, but rather about AA's still very low self-esteem. And what is it that nobody doesn't think so now? Now it's all about the kink, yes? And is everyone happy with it?
It is clear that this is also a completely normal option, but it is not for everyone. And if AA does not respect the desire of Tav's who are not satisfied with it, then what else can we talk about love?

And finally about UA. They didn't add any new kisses to him at all. All the videos on YouTube compare the new kisses of spawn and AA, but AA lovers get them all, because the new kisses of spawn are played both before and after the ritual without ascension. That is, UA really has less content compared to AA. And there are fewer phrases, for example, to the question of "who we are to you", and there are no new kisses, although his changes after abandoning the ritual are generally no less than AA.

Well, none of them have a final kiss.

Even if that's true, it's not what most people are going to assume based on the information the game gives them. The game gives the following information: we know for a fact the tadpole cancels out the ability for a vampite to compell their spawn; we know Astarion makes Tav into some kind of vampire and gives Tav a drop of blood, which he apparently claims is to pass on the sunlight protection. Oh yeah, and if you try to leave him after the netherbrain is defeated, he doesn't let you, proving
that he definitely CAN compell and control Tav. This isn't even actually up for debate, the game does in fact give a concrete answer. He demonstrably has power over Tav, so clearly Tav is a spawn. As for why he doesn't compel Tav after the netherbrain's defeat if the breakup is before the netherbrain, that's an example of ambiguity being used in a good way, like others have said. I would read that as him having had his pride wounded. You broke up with him and presumably other people KNOW you broke up with him. If he forced you after that, itwould be him crawling back. Sure he'd be magically compelling you, but he'd still be on the back foot, metaphorically speaing. Whereas if you try to leave and he never gives you the chance, he still has the power.

Well, this is not a prove, that he could mindcontrol you. It only shows, that Astarion becomes angry and says to you, you cannot go. But what Astarion says and what he does, can be different and is free to the imagination of the players.
It is meant to be ambiguous and enjoyable for the players. I guess, this doesn't exist in your mind. But let other people play and feel their route how they want and see and feel it.


No, you're not alone, here was the result of a survey: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=937668#Post937668

We suggested to have the choice between "rough" and "gentle" (=the old one) kisses, so that everyone could be happy. And the new 3 "kisses" needs to be reworked and made consensual, both (!) partners loving and touching each others, Astarion's dominance, sadism and kink but could stay. The players of this romance want to feel that both partners are into it, even if Astarion has a humiliation kink, and not be treated like trash by something alien who changed the context.

This is it.
I can RP that my Tav would never ask for kisses, given his history of SA. Then, guess what? Tav is never scared of AA. He isn't cruel to her. Only silk glove.

So...the cycle of abuse story fails.

If they want to write it, they have to write it into his* character. Not into one optional interaction where it's only shown through a PC reaction.

All this arguing, but it doesn't change the fact players who want to play 'cycle of abuse' have always been able to. So neutral faces won't change that for them. Because it never did before.

I miss BioWare, man. They actually cared about their fans. Larian really wants to put "You can RP abuse for fun! :D" into their game to teach dark romance fans a lesson? Not a good look. Change the victim faces. They're disturbing.

@Gray Ghost. After the brain is dead and you try to leave him, you don't light up the way thralls do. His eyes don't glow. He's not compelling you to stay. He's just an asshole about it. Because he's an evil vampire lord.

Therefore, the ideal would be to be able to give the player a choice:

1. Tender Kiss. For example, bring back the kiss from patch 5 and add a kiss with a bite. But that in the kiss with a bite Astarion did not push Tav away, but on the contrary, licked the blood from Tav's lips, or at least just did not push away, and immediately after the kiss would smile his magnificent smile - this scene would be wonderful.

2. Rough Kiss - existing variants where they need to change Tav's facial expression to a happy one. And for Tav to touch Astarion. This is also suitable for players who do not want to kneel in public, but wish to play this way in a more intimate setting. It will be possible to choose rough kisses in a camp or deserted place, and gentle kisses in the streets of Baldur.

The face-grabbing kiss seems to me to be the most neutral (correct me if I'm wrong) and suitable for both the tender and rough versions. With Tav's satisfied face, of course.


The epilogue is still great, and that happy ending provides just a wild contrast to the previous game if you kiss the "patched Astarion" regularly. There are even some lovely additions to the new epilogue - the scene on the bed and the opportunity to hold hands at the end. Astarion gives his hand almost exactly the same way he did in the confession scene in chapter two. They don't know what's in store for them, but it's going to be a hell of a lot of fun! All that's missing is a kiss (a normal one) and a hug. The same goes for the party after the epilogue. The new kisses are just an artificial insertion from some domestic violence movie, an alien violent story whose characters for some strange reason wear the guises of Astarion and Tav like doppelgangers.


Absolutely right. Yes and Astarion, if he saw that expression on Tav's face, as those kisses show, would probably freeze in surprise at the very least. I mean, he's sure Tav "likes to humiliate themselves", but they clearly don't like it here. Any dominant would slow down in such a case and ask if everything was okay.


As a rule, this is done in games and movies, the main theme of which is violence, in order to comply with the law, and at once attract their audience and cut off the audience sensitive. For example, the game "Hatred", about a psychopathic loner, in the role of which the player just runs around the city and kills in various ways everyone he reaches. The game immediately makes it clear that it's "about that". It makes no sense at all to introduce particularly violent scenes into a game that positions itself otherwise. The developers regularly present the game as something fun, capable of bringing joy. Change the game's agenda just to keep three traumatizing scenes? Which don't fit with the story in any way, no one (at least of those who play this route - that is, the end user) needs. It's like showing a detailed detailed sadistic murder with dismemberment in some boss or NPS killing scene instead of a normal murder. This, of course, unlike kissing, could fit into the story for "evil" players, but would be completely unnecessary, and not worth hanging a warning on the game for the sake of it. But for the moment, yes, BG3 should put up this warning to take care of those players who, for example, just play, don't read the news and forums and might suddenly get such a "surprise". And in order to comply with the laws of most European countries.


Yeah, I too have always had the impression that Astarion just craves Tav's attention. He shows off to Tav in his lines, says that Tav is more precious to him than power, doesn't want to let go even for a little while, at a party, to socialize with others. He does let go, of course, but the expression on his face at the end of his lines is somewhat sad, so that you immediately want to go back and talk to him some more. And he is happy for your attention (there is a separate line), if you approach him at the party in the very first place. Astarion needs exactly that adoration and attention, his playful animations in the romantic lines show this too. In the previous kiss (patch 5), it was as if Astarion didn't want to let go of Tav, remember the look he was giving Tav at that moment.

You are not the only one Florika. I detest the new kisses. I could live with them if Tavs facial animation were changed and if that is what suits the majority and Larian go along with it eventually I will be content - I won't be happy and will probably, if I play again, never ask for a kiss but I can live with that if everyone else is happy.
The new kisses triggered me, I have explained how and why elsewhere, and that is how Astarion behaves as much as the Facial animations. I do not accept having my throat grabbed as a suitable way to carry on in a game I play for fun and relaxation.


Totally agree