Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Yes, would be interesting. Of course, YouTube polls don't say that much because anyone who doesn't play the Astarion romance or game can vote there.

I could be wrong, but it seems that Kasador can't be reborn. High elves can, of course, but only if they weren't vampires. So in Kasador's case, it's a one-time cycle of life.
But it would be an interesting scenario.)

By the way, yes. And with UAstarion's soul there will be nothing particularly good either - the souls of vampires fall into the Astral Sea, the gods don't care about them. In case of the death of the Ascended Astarion (well, it's much easier for him to avoid this death, and he can live a very, very long time, perhaps forever), even if he gets to Mephistopheles, I don't see it as something so terrible - it's much more profitable for the archdevil to make a powerful vampire work for himself for a while, and then Astarion can pay off and return to Faerûn again, than to treat him the same way as with weak and useless souls.


The cure doesn't seem to me to fit the idea of "drama" that the game has, it's unlikely to be added. Now that I've played a lot with Astarion, watched his different scenes, including from EA, I'm sure Ascension is much more desirable to him than just the cure for vampirism. It makes him a happier person. Still, a large portion of AA fans will continue to ascend him, some portion who strongly disliked killing spawns in cages but couldn't stand "spawn forever" and the horrible ending might change their minds. Or, alternatively, for once pass so, for interest, since it became more acceptable to pass, but then ascend again. But making the Path of Ascension impassable is much more reliable, so they can just throw the dissenters out of the game and work only with the audience that is loyal and accepts all the "dramatic ideas". But games don't do that, it would be a "step towards the sunset" of the studio. Already, many loyal players who were involved in EA, who were with Larian from the beginning, have left and abandoned the game. There were posts from such people in the threads after patch 6, they never came back or posted anything on the forum again.

I'm not sure either, I don't know the lore well enough. Vampirism might indeed affect the reincarnation.

I've seen a few polls and the ratios are always similar- The lowest I saw was like 10-15% (Maybe lower?) AA, and 25% "Likes/does both routes".
It'd probably depend where you take the poll, for example if you took it here I imagine the ratios would be pretty different. In order to get an actual idea of the real ratio Larian would have to unveil that. You could get a somewhat good idea in a place where both communities coexist, but both are pretty segregated, I think.

Cazador (and Astarion, or any of the other vampires? probably?) can't be reborn because they're cut off from that cycle if they're deemed "immoral" or in this case "undead" since they're pretty hated by almost all deities. I'm p sure Astarion must have been cut off way before he died, but Astarion's elvishness isn't even taken into consideration in the game, so I doubt it was something that was given much thought.
I do wonder if a deity would be willing to forgive vampire spawn who had no choice when being turned and haven't committed any crimes (say, imagine a Sebastian that behaves real well after being freed) but we kind of saw some of that with Jander Sunstar, and it didn't go great. The deities are ruthless towards the undead, no matter what (evidently excluding some of them, but they're the goofy evil kind). It's a bit upsetting. Well, the entire concept of afterlife in the forgotten realms is upsetting.

As well as many of those who play, didn't participate in this poll (I missed it myself and didn't participate). Of the roleplayers I know IRL - two ascend (but both are guys, romance doesn't concern them), one girl took offense to the kneeling even earlier, wanted to play without romance, but ended up getting bored and has been playing another game for a while now. It's a very small sample, of course, but it shows that the obligatory kneeling scene was a barrier for some players before. And now... It's already more than just some "psychological barrier", it's not suitable for anyone at all.

Well, according to Astarion, he made the choice himself. Of course there was a choice: bleed to death in a ditch, or become a vampire. He chose the second, and of course he didn’t know that Cazador would be an asshole. But nevertheless, Astarion himself went for it.

Funny thing. The kneeling scene was a great scene for my Tav, especially after he found out about Astarion's kink in act 1! They had an intimate scene there.
So for me it was more of a barrier in the spawn route that Astarion has lost all his interesting kinks and dominance he had since the beginning.

Yes, the kneeling scene and patch 6 scenes cannot be compared, because the first one is consensual, the second one is non-consensual and disturbing for a lot of people.

That's why I didn't use Astarion as an example :P

It also depends on the country. It depends on the mentality in different countries, including the comfort of living, the general level of security. I read that AA is more often ascended in less prosperous countries (maybe in them people value real things, including strength and security, more than ideas of "goodness", I don't know), but it was the opinion of one author without statistical data and confirmations. But of course, the real ratio can only be known by Larian themselves.


No, they won't. But not because they will judge him, but simply because they will not pay attention. Astarion said "I prayed to them all, no one heard". According to DnD lore, all vampire souls go straight to the Astral Sea, not to the fields of Kelemvor.

What I've very anecdotically noted is that it seems a prominent amount of AA fans are from Russia. He seems much more popular there.

Exactly:)

It could seem so, but I am not sure, in general there are a lot of russian people liking Astarion, whether he is a spawn or ascended. So I wouldn't consider it true without a proof.

Of the seven runs in the game, I've only done the first one with Spawn. And right those who say that once you give AA a chance, and to the route of Spawn will not return. That's how it worked out for me. And I still promise to give Gale and his focus a chance, but Astarion is just too adorable.

I didn't have much trouble with the kneeling in the conversion scene. Saw it as an act of trust (which on the route for Astarion is important), a loyalty test from AA. (But everyone has different points of view, and for some this is unacceptable).
It's especially funny when Tav didn't grovel to anyone (not a goblin's; not Vlaakit, she can be waved my hand ; intimidated Abdirak's). And then, Astarion with the ultimatum and knee bowing. He must have been beyond proud.)))

The new lap kiss bothers me now because it was a individuality for the scene of the address. But now doing it as a simple kiss-defeats uniquenesses the conversion scene.

I was stunned the first time, to be honest! I took the scene with Abdirak as a kind of challenge, as a test for "coolness", especially since Tav going through Intimidation looks really cool in this scene. Kind of like the "battle of the wet towels" of the ancient Vikings, when warriors in the cold naked, wrapped in wet cloths, and whoever lasts longer is clearly not a weakling. I wanted to show that my Tav was not a weakling in front of Astarion (it was right after our first night), and I didn't even immediately realize what was meant, I just agreed because he said: "And no arguments!". And then I had to prove that Tav wasn't weak...

I even took offense at Astarion for his cold stare during the conversation with SH in this scene, like, "Oh you, Astarion, I'd tear anyone's hands off for you and shove them in a bad place, who would dare to touch you, but you...". No sympathy, "toxic elf ass" as LiryFire wrote . But then he said: "I missed you"... Especially back then, the relationship on his part wasn't that close yet, and after all he'd been through, I figured it was worth it for Tav to experience a small part of it herself.

Same with the goblin, I made the goblin kiss Tav's boot myself, Astarion approved, it sure looked like a test of leadership skills. So the dominance took me somewhat by surprise, but he became so confident and content that I ended up liking it a lot.

And in the spawn's path he loses all his playfulness, that's what cut me right off. I didn't get the dominance part at first, it's interesting how these scenes can be perceived in different ways!

I think both choices are good.


The fact is that you don't know what they would do. Some people decide to not ascend Astarion and kill all the spawns for the reasons you say. They won't condemn the souls but they would definitely kill them. Others decide that they are in the same position as Astarion when you meet them and to give them the chance. To assume that they would easily go on killing other citizens when they used to be citizens too (not martial training) and are weak after centuries of confinement, well, is to give them too much credit. It is more likely that the ones who chose to go to the surface are killed by the gur (who actively hunt them) and the guards, who are tough. So sure, it is a moral dilemma about free will and about giving chances and opportunities to people. But at the point you find them, they are innocent because they haven't been feeding at all. They haven't killed or done anything but fall for handsome spawns like Astarions (much like our characters XD). Our character could have been one of them.


Sure, our characters care about Astarion. That is why you help him kill Cazador. But once Cazador is dead, Astarion is already free, spawn or ascended. Ascension gives him power but he is already free as in having free will and the ability to choose his own future/path. The ascension is "an extra". And I've played both paths, so no judgment on wanting him to be happy. But yes, when Astarion sacrifices 6999 souls (I won't count Cazador's souls since I think he is the one who clearly deserves it XD), he is doing what Gortash did. You do it to make Astarion happy and not for power? Ok, but that doesn't change that those souls weren't yours and that you are selling them to get something you want. You are selling others. Like Gortash. Can compassionate people do evil things and still be compassionate? Maybe, but their intentions won't make what they have done less evil. That is why we have the saying "The path to hell is paved with good intentions". In this case literally. Plus, a 7000 pages contract with Mephistopheles might have lots of clauses that your character and Astarion might not be aware of. Learn from Wyll: signing a contract with a devil without knowing the details is a bad idea.


I don't know where this comes from. I've already said in other posts that I also dislike the kisses animations and that even if DS is not my kink, I'm all for people being able to enjoy it. Also, it should be the player who chooses how to react to the domination (for me that includes saying that you are not into it as much as saying that you like it). Having said that, to downplay the choice about the ritual by saying that not ascending Astarion makes no sense or that non ascended Astarion is going to be unhappy for ever or that it is cruel to not ascend him, also cheapens the choice to do it. And if you pick the "non ascended", sure, it is true that he won't be able to see the sun (you could try to search for a way in an open ending that is meant to give some hope). Or maybe that he needs to "reclaim the night", which is a way to say that he is going to make his own choices from now on and try to enjoy his freedom and unlife. That Astarion is also free and doesn't carry the burden of guilt or strings attached to Mephistopheles.


I honestly don't know why they have done the kiss scenes in a way that shows Astarion as a sadist with Tav in an abusive relationship. If I have to make a guess, I think it might be like that Marvel comic artist that used porn actresses to draw the female characters so female characters that were supposedly fighting, were in literally fucking positions. My guess is that they used as a model sadist porn (someone else showed the comparison in this thread or another and made sense), without realizing that the people that get excited about the fear and pain in the face of the woman are usually abusive people. They probably bought in the lie that "deep down" women enjoy that. I hope that once they realize the error, they correct it. But for me it was a bad call and very wrong.

I struggled a bit, tried to negotiate, thought that after "No", there would be something smarter, some kind of conviction, but after Astarion broke off the relationship and got terribly offended, I rebooted and took it as an act of trust too. In that sense, the game has taught me something. For example, that you should look at the essence, not the "form".

And yes, the new kiss robs the conversion scene of some special sacrality. But the main point is that there is violence, strangulation, and Tav looks like a clear victim of violence, not a participant in the "love game" in any way.

Yes, I would agree. Sexual deviance (sadistic deviant porn with sexual abuse) as an inspiration for TAV could make sense, as those scenes are a mixture of abuse and sexual deviance. You can find similiar scenes (the woman is rejecting, screaming and/or crying, but then, when she is *** or forced by the man, sometimes controlled or hypnosed, she is like: "oh yeah, I want it" and after again unhappy and/or crying) but of course as an act on special sites. After someone mentioned it, I also took a look into those.. special deviant videos. Some (or some more?) men are into such stuff, but for regular people and especially women it is very, very disturbing and triggering.

And thank you for supporting the fanbase!

Absolutely agree. Again, in-game choices are in-game choices, and there may be in-game consequences for them, but not in any way experiencing traumatic scenes by real people.

No, I'm not trying to cheapen anyone's choice, it's just that there is the possibility of different interpretations, and one can look at it from different angles. I just believe that Astarion makes that choice himself, he wants it, he enjoys the freedom and a new full life afterward. I don't deny my evil intentions (I guess the happiness and comfort of a loved one is also quite a selfish intention that doesn't take into account others). I think that Tav becomes more like a chaotic-neutral after that, in order to be chaotic-evil you also have to enjoy causing evil, not just doing an evil deed for some main goal. But specifically in the game there is no alignment, so it's also a matter of personal evaluation. It all depends on priorities - the main thing is that all paths are passable, there are no particularly violent and traumatizing scenes that don't make any plot sense, and everyone is able to choose what feels more right to them, for whatever reasons they want, without bullying or coercion.

I think Astarion is conflicted. On one hand, he always wants power. On the other, not always wants to pay the price for that power (he doesn't want to become a full Illithid, for example). I think that while he is happy with the power he gets, he also see himself in the other spawns. And also cares about some of them. The way he says he feels sorry for his brothers and sisters, it seems that it is a love-hate relationship that *might* heal without Cazador pitting them one against the other. Also, he cares about Sebastian. Maybe because he sees a younger version of himself in him.

Both versions can be happy and unhappy. And doing an evil thing doesn't automatically turn you evil. You can even have good intentions, look the other way and so on. I've played both paths and I think both have their own interesting things. I also happen to think that both version of Astarion share traits and that ascended Astarion should be caring too because it is quite common that evil people love and care for their families while at the same time, being cruel to others. For example, Ascended Astarion would clearly kill to get Tav something Tav wants.

But I don't think that Larian wanted to make players uncomfortable with Ascended Astarion. I think the aim was to add kink and they failed in the delivery.