Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Not BG4 or D&D

You are right about the nature of the mods published for BG3.
On the other hand, the comparison with Solasta is not justified. Just look: we're talking about a ridiculous number of mods. Only 136 mods for Solasta. The NWN example seems more relevant to me.

In any case, the growing complexity of games (graphics, cutscenes, etc.) makes it illusory to create rich and truly attractive quests. At best we will have a "dungeon" quest and that's it.

Abandoning D&D will certainly help. D&D is a Frankenstein's monster of regurgitated toddler fantasy tropes, the epitome of silliness. The social value of tabletop D&D is to be appreciated, but its score on creative, sensible world building is near zero.

Abandoning D&D won't help because the silliness a lot of people have issue with seems to just be a baked in part of Larian storytelling. I'm not super familiar with the Forgotten Realms, but what I have seen and heard is certainly derivative in places, but as far as inherent siliness goes, a DM can easily dial it up or down to their liking for the story they're trying to tell.

Silliness is way, way, WAY more a hallmark of Larian storytelling than it is a necessary component of DnD.

Yep, the tone of the Forgotten Realms as a setting *really* depends on the GM/writer/game dev. All the FR based games I've played have had different tones. Icewind Dale 1 and 2 feel isolated, desolate even. Baldur's Gate 1 is goofy but also mysterious. Baldur's Gate 2 takes the undercurrent of darkness present in BG1 and dials it up. There's still some great humor, but the tone is much more serious. NWN2 is a pretty classic feeling fantasy adventure; MotB again dials up the darkness and, as I recall, felt quite mature in its themes.

BG3 leaning more toward "silly" (but with some dark shock value type elements) is due to Larian's take on the setting, not the setting itself. The FR as a setting is incredibly comprehensive, and obviously juggles a lot of elements that can clash with each other and be like "Frankenstein's monster" in the wrong hands, because a story needs focus. A good GM narrows down that focus, sets a tone, and tells a story with the appropriate elements. (And while I'm not the biggest fan of BG3's story, I'm not implying Larian failed here, because obviously they got a lot of people into the setting who weren't before).

A lot of these depend on choices, and also Vlaakith is not a God as has been mentioned. Mystra can and does restore Gale but it isn't promised as that undermines the gravity of the sacrifice itself. Shadowheart can go a lot of different paths, again depends on choices.

You seem to be complaining about outcomes that you chose. Odd.



It exists in the hells. It's all over Descent to Avernus - unless you want to claim that isn't part of the Lore either. Gortash helped design this technology which he clearly adapted or stole from the Hells.


It's hard to take any of this seriously since you don't back it up with sources. And for some reason you don't seem to consider the modules themselves as sources, or even the timeline of what has happened in the realms.

After the Time of Troubles Gond taught the Lantanese how to make Smokepowder and it became fairly common even if it was often banned locally by various governments. In Dragon Heist it can be purchased in Waterdeep and it is considered an Uncommon Wondrous Item.

You also seem to be projecting your own idea of what the game believes is evil or good onto your play. I have played as a Cleric of Lathander and I always killed undead when I met with them and I don't feel any guilt about it - I didn't feel any guilt about killing Astarion when it was revealed he was a vampire and that really solves a lot of that problem. If my companions have an issue with my behavior they can fuck right off. Also the game does not imply, and I have never interpreted it, that flooding Baldur's Gate with 7k spawn is in any way a good thing.

If you play the game where your moral compass is dictated by the approval or disapproval of your companions then that is the same as not having any moral/ethical outlook. It says you lack the strength of your convictions - or simply that you have no convictions or that your convictions are just meaningless virtue signaling where you constantly chase the approval of others.

So much projection.

Protip - Try to focus your arguments and back them with sources. You are really all over the place.

Also you seem to be split on your theme whether it's your own disappointing play or if you are trying to argue that Larian didn't follow the lore of Faerun. The first is subjective so I would just avoid that but the second one has promise and you may be able to make a decent argument if you can back with sources.

@Blackheiffer woke up and chose violence.

I confess I had lol with your psychoanalysis Of course I engage in projection. As do you. I always smile whenever I see you inveighing against nostalgia - you really are quite hard on yourself. Protip: engage in some self reflection on that matter, you really do inveigh against yourself and it leaves you 'all over the place'. Truly.

Anyway. This isn't an academic paper but let's pretend it is

On smokepowder. Lots of sources here. Covers availability, stability, controversy, etc.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Smokepowder

https://web.archive.org/web/20210517004301/https://twitter.com/jvcparry/status/867391458827005953

Yes Gond taught it to the Lantanese but this was opposed by other gods. Which is why it was cursed to be unstable.

(and in meta terms this reflects battles inside of WotC - some people want to see firearms in the realms, some strongly oppose it)

Avernus is Max Max: Fury Road in the hells and thus it is possible that factories exist outside of Faerun. [1] (it is equally likely that the iron that makes up a infernal machines grows on trees, pours out of infernal fountains, floats on top of the rivers of salt or is produced by an act of will by Zariel) How many such infernal factories exist? I assume the factories are as rare as Thunderdome but neither of us knows - 5e avernus is under construction.


If the entire factory - and not just the "special material"s for the steel watch referred to in the notes - came from the hells there should some indication it did. Seems a pretty big move some for some who needs to pay a diabolist to traverse the planes, no? It's not clear how Gortash gets the small amounts of infernal iron he has but it is strongly implied that it came as part of deal that involved Karlach and her beta test heart.

I'm glad you felt like you got good role play out slaughtering the zombies in the streets, in the circus and in sorcerous sundries. Unless you found some way to stealth that it leads of a murder hobo / enemy of justice response and if you find that fun, I guess you do. I mean the zombies beg for mercy for Bhaal's sake . . .


Because I like DnD lore I do kill the vampire spawn in astarian's quest but the story absolutely does not confirm that as a good act. It's an that action causes Paladin of devotion to fall - in Larian's mind it is **coded** as an evil act (or at least not a lawful good act). Good Shadowheart tells you that sparing the lives of the spawn was the right decision because their deaths would weigh on you . . . Releasing the spawn is the good option - it's hard to argue otherwise. And it does turn out for the best . . . (which I think is silly)

I don't know what to say about this:


Other than: that seems to be an exceptionally poor reading of what I wrote. Odd.

1] https://www.inverse.com/article/592...ernus-writer-reveals-mad-max-inspiration

"the iron that makes up a infernal machines grows on trees, pours out of infernal fountains, floats on top of the rivers "

You're pretty close to the real world, really ... it's called Bog Iron, and it is found in swamps and bogs as a result of the natural activities of plant life. It was in fact the primary source of iron in the not-so-long-ago days. And it is renewable. I've always found bogs and swamps to be kind of magical, with will-o-wisps flitting about and the Mad Hermit living in his hollow tree, but alas, Larian is moving away from the rich landscapes of early D&D that existed long before the Forgotten Realms.

That's great! I vaguely remember some history channel-like documentary on viking swords and why they thought the swords that came from (what is now) France were magical in nature that mentioned bog iron.

You are absolutely right about the magic of bogs. I don't miss living in the midwest but one thing I do miss is seeing fireflies on warms summer nights, watching the lights dance above a dell is indeed magical experience

I've followed Forgotten Realms since I first read the novel Spellfire when it was released. I loved the setting more than Dragonlance and always thought it was a better place to adventure in.

But I always realized it was an unrealistic hodgepodge of ideas and societies crammed together.

I still remember my first Forgotten Realms box set with the fold out map. Back when TSR said Sembia would always remain undeveloped so that players could have their own region that wasn't disturbed by canon interference. I must've read those books a thousand times or more. Back then I read every Realms novel that was published. My bookshelf was my secret best friend. My greatest treasure.

And while I appreciate and prefer settings that lack technology, I'm forced to accept that DnD, Forgotten Realms included, has always been a bit of a sandbox. Whether players were hopping between planes or delving into engineering miracles underground, what was included in the setting was always beholden to the needs of the storyteller.

In today's Forgotten Realms there are artificers. Clearly there's smokepowder and infernal machines, and there's always been clockwork automatons. It's a setting that attempts to please every nook and cranny of taste.

Are there factories in Forgotten Realms? I'll bet you Wyll's good eye that there are and that you'll start to see more and more of this stuff as WotC releases more and more product. I get the feeling that KillerRabbit is advocating for his preferred version of Forgotten Realms rather than recognizing that what exists in BG3 has the WotC stamp of approval. It's not some crazy Larian interpretation. This stuff is canon now.

So again, are there factories in Forgotten Realms? There sure are. BG3 is the proof, not the culprit.

(I prefer a fantasy setting without factories and smokepowder.)

You may be right that more may be coming. The Pathfinder setting has places with guns and a part of the map that is entirely steampunk. If you played WOTR you might have remembered the joy that was fighting the cybermen.

Like you I prefer setting without guns and factories but thus far the one in BG3 is the only one I know of. There is a swamp in Cormyr with buildings formed of glass and steel that sounds like it contains technology but to the best of my knowledge that never got anything more than a paragraph.

I dunno what to say about this way of arguing - we all acknowledge that there is a factory in BG3. Right? That's a given. But I don't think think you can argue that the factory seems perfectly in place in the setting because it is in BG3. Were that the case *nothing* could be ruled out of place in the setting.

Imagine if we couldn't say "Astarian and Shadowheart shouldn't be texting on iPhones because that seems out of place in Faerun" and getting the response. "iPhones are in BG3 so they are not out place in the realms and I suspect we will be seeing many more iPhones in the future"

I mean that wouldn't convince you, would it?

Now I am both saying what is and would I like to remain. Am I saying that I want see the realms remain a high fantasy, medievalish, hot mess of setting. I am also saying that it is currently a high fantasy, medievalish hot mess of setting. Both Faerun and Golorian are hodgepodge settings but Faerun has a bit less hodge and Golorian has a bit more podge.

There has long been debate about how much technology to include in the setting - I provided a link to internal discussion about firearms - and up until now WotC has decided that Faerun is neither Ebberon nor Golorian.

Actually, you can.

Since BG3 is canon. Thus anything that is in BG3 is considered canon to the setting.

As far as "Nothing being ruled out", well... Yeah. That's the point. At the end of the day, WotC have the last say in what is acceptable to include in the canon and once it's included in some canon media it is suddenly an accepted part of the setting.

Like, if WotC DID greenlight iPhones, Blasters and Apache Attack Helicopters in BG3... Then those things would thus be canon to the setting.

Such is the nature of this sort of mass developed setting. With the hodge podge of ideas from different people writing stories within the setting and a "Hands off" holder of the IP that just greenlights whatever they feel is acceptable you can end up getting things that might seem anachronistic to the setting... But they become canon nonetheless.

If the IP holder (WotC) was a primary source of writing, and actually cared much about consistency within the IP, then they'd be able to focus the setting into a specific vision and be more selective with what they greenlight from other writers, which may have resulted in no factories or smokepowder appearing in the setting.

Having only dabbled in DnD many many years ago when the USSR was still a thing I had never heard of the Forgotten Realms until BG3. It's been fascinating to learn about it on here and through the Wiki and discussions like this are much appreciated by someone new to it like me.

Ignoring whatever word salad that first paragraph was, but this is again wrong. You got the timeline mixed up. Mystra cursed smokepowder to make it non-functional and then Gond taught the Latanese how to get around it during the Time of troubles.

The point is that Smokepowder is not some rare and legendary thing in the realms but fairly uncommon but available.


The point is that both actions have negative and positive consequences and that YOU have to decide which one you can live with. There is no objective "good" black and white choice. This is the drum Larian has been beating since they started making this game but you don't seem to be able to dance to the rhythm.

As a Cleric of Lathander I can wipe out 7k Undead because that is part of my ethos, and in my eyes this is an act of kindness and charity - but if I was a Devotion paladin I would be forced to protect all life and acknowledge that the Spawn are victims as well.

In the case of the Circus I can exercise more discretion, and just not agree to help Lucretius put the clown back together. After all, I am not a Paladin and not bound by an Oath to act immediately and directly.

Who cares what Shadowheart thinks, or any of the companions? This was a flaw in the original games where people set their moral compass by chasing the approval of companions.


I think this is the truth of it. You, and a handful of others have an idea of what the Forgotten realms "ought" to be - when in reality it is a large sandbox and Larian got to choose what to utilize and you don't agree with that. That's fine, why do you think we have been banging the "mods now" drum so loud. Some of us want to make persistent worlds that conform to more traditional settings and allow people to explore that.

Although I do want to point out that Bg2 went pretty hard on the science bullshit when it came to Jon Irenicus* and his 'experiments' - his little Lab under Amn was chock full of Steampunk-esque nonsense.

*I call this the 'Because all mages are apparently fucking master engineers" foible.

Mystra save me from people who ask for sources and then decline to read them. Here, to save you effort of clicking:



. . . .




Note that both of these sources are **after** the destruction of Lantan. The Lantanese techniques are either lost or reserved to a select portion of the Gondian priesthood. To get meta once again - I think the changes reflect disagreements on firearms inside WotC. Yes, I know I am relying to 4e source which is a sin but, in my defense, it was written by Ed Greenwood.

The curse is active.

Everything in that article underlines small quantities, very difficult to get. If you need me to I can post those bits as well but I would prefer if you took the time to read it yourself.



While that statement could be written by the Larian PR department it's false. You can only believe that **if** you ignore the overwhelming evident that the oath of devotion is a de facto Lawful Good Paladin. And, as strange as it might sound, I think this is a case where Larian is doing a better job of respecting DnD Lore than is WotC. Larian clearly wanted Paladins to be classic holy warriors and the oath of devotion is that.


Like you I kill them all because I think their soul are already lost and this is the most compassionate thing I can do - free them from sanguine hunger. To me it's clear that the author believed that was a failure of compassion on your part. Were I to channel the voice of the author I would ask: "You thought Astarian was capable of change, why aren't you prepared to give the Gur children the same opportunity."?

But I believe our interpretations are at odd with the author's own. The author didn't like the lore that said they were monsters the moment they were turned and so they changed it. Yes we are free to headcannon that killing the kids is the kind, compassionate choice - but the code would argue with us.

(and to be clear I really like the story - my point, once again, is that Larian felt constrained by DnD lore)



I'm sure that Lathander forgives you You are charged to destroy undead whenever possible and I am sure that Lathander would accept that it wasn't possible in the circus or right next to Baslisk Gate.



Because evil Shadowheart and good Shadowheart have differing opinions on things and those statements are the voice of the authors telling you whether or not your actions were good or evil.



I get why you are upset that you aren't getting the mod tools you wanted. I am sincerely confused as to why you are angry with me about it. Or, to be perfectly honest, I know that you aren't angry with me but I'm here and the CEO isn't so I become the sounding board for your anger. Perhaps "sincerely surprised" is more accurate than "sincerely confused".

I'm sorry you aren't getting them, I had nothing to do with that decision. Also, I do hope you can modify the tools you do get. With BG2 the fan made mod tools were so much better than the ones Bioware used that Beamdog chose to use the fan made tools in lieu of the ones they paid for.


I do agree on this and would add the aesthetics of the planar sphere. While I think I am the only one who notices this but square hay bales annoy me and have been annoying me since BG 1. Uniform, tightly bound bales are a symbol of industrialization. Come on artists! I know someone Larian is expert in art history - it shows in your descriptions of paintings . . . You've seen all the paintings with hay stacks and thick sheaves tied with cord . . .

To be fair, Irenicus is essentially an epic-level mage. When it comes to the secret lair of mages that powerful, some "advanced" aesthetics, I find, is less jarring than an active factory in the middle of a city. The same goes for the planar sphere; I mean some of the "high-tech" aesthetics in there were because you were actively being transported to small poritons of high-tech planes, wasn't it?

The point being made in that like you quoted isn't about canon. It's not about what factually is the case, it's about whether that thing feels like it fits into the setting. You are correct that WotC can make anything they like canon, but that doesn't mean those things will automatically feel appropriate to the setting and actually fit in naturally. You even agree with her point, saying that "you can end up getting things that might seem anachronistic to the setting" which is what KillerRabbit is saying the factories are.

And the point I was making is that it doesn't matter what us, the consumer, feel like fits into the setting.

It's all about what WotC feel fits into their setting.

Since they control the IP, it's their decision as to what is fitting for the setting.

The nature of the setting is that it is ultimately controlled by a company that doesn't have a strict vision for what the setting is.

Meaning, whatever becomes canon is the canon, whether we consumers like it or not.

Thus, we have the argument that anything that does show up in canon, make sense. As it's not beholden to any standard that we have, it's only to meet the standards that WotC has. It only has to make sense to WotC and whomever wrote the story in the first place.

If an inclusion seems nonsensical, then the ultimate issue is the lack of awareness that WotC don't particularly care about retaining an exclusive "High Fantasy" setting for the IP.

Is your argument that The Forgtten Realms is a nonsense non-setting where anything goes and everything is fine and acceptable at any point? Is your argument that "if a story were to suddenly be written where the city of new york exists in its entirety in Faerun, that would feel totally in line with the setting because it's a setting where in theory WotC just has to approve it for it to be canon"?

The consumers feelings do in fact matter because who do you think the setting is being made for? If BG3 had been a failure and people had been complaining about how it didn't fit the pre-established tone of the setting, do you think WotC would stick to their guns and say that it's absolutely canon? No, they'd ignore its canonicity.

Your claim ignores the fact that the setting has in fact existed in a particular way for a long time leading up to the release of this game. People have experienced the setting for decades leading to this point. It's been a hodge-podge yes, but still has had some degree of consistency in flavor. So when things are introduced arbitrarily that go against that flavor, people are well within their rights to say "that doesn't fit with what's been established before." Then WotC or whoever are free to say "you're right, we'll change it" or "well that's what the setting is now". The implication of your argument is that fans should just silently take whatever they're given as though WotC is doing them a favor. That fans should just pretend the setting as it existed in the past doesn't exist and should have no bearing on their feelings about any decisions made in the present. That is not how people work, nor is it how businesses or even creative projects work. If George RR Martin were to say in the next Game of Thrones book that it's canon that cell phones exist and people travel around on motorcycles, then that's as much canon as anything going on with BG3 and the forgotten realms. You could argue that "since he's the author and IP holder, he's entitled to make the setting anything he wants" and it would be just as valid as what you're saying about WotC. People would still have every right to complain about it, dislike it, and stop buying the books.

Furthermore, this particular line of discussion began with KillerRabbit claiming that Larian don't particularly like the setting of the Forgotten Realms as it existed and so by act three they were introducing thinigs to it that did not fit in the setting as it had been established previously to make it more to their tastes. So again, the point isn't that WotC can make anything canon. The point being made was that Larian did not like the forgotten realms as it had existed before they were allowed to influence it, and as evidence, KR pointed to a number of things Larian included that run counter to the setting as it had previously been presented. It doesn't matter that those things can be allowed if WotC says they are, what matters is that they weren't there before and Larian added them in because they were unsatisfied with the setting as they had recieved it. The argument is that if Larian had been happy with the setting, they would not have added the things they did. What is and isn't canon is another discussion.

Well said Gray Ghost.