Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General A step backwards

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I purchased Beyond Divinity after having played and throughly enjoyed Divine Divinity, thinking that BD would be the equal or surpass DD.

Unfortunately I am very dissapointed in BD, it seams the developers have commited the cardinal sin of messing with perfection. DD is a much better game, the interface is better the control of one character as apposed to two is simplicity itself.

BD control system is a nightmare, half the time your not sure which character you are controlling and when it comes to a battle the constant swaping from one character to another takes away any enjoyment that could be had from it. The skills interface is too complex and just detracts from the game.

I regret to say that BD has put me off any future releases Larian may come out with, next time I will get the demo first before I part with my hard earned cash.

Most of us have already played Divine Divinity and enjoyed it before to play Beyond Divinity.
Most of us have made the error to compare the two games because they are both called Divinity and they are both Larian games.
But it is a very big error.
These two games are really different and they can't be compared.

The interface of BD is different but it is as good as the interface of DD.
You just need a few hours to get used to it.

About the skill tree, it is the same. It is surprising at the beginning.
Then when you have understood how it works, you think that the BD skill system is really good too.

Playing with 2 char seems to be difficult but it is the best idea in this game !!!
The fights are pretty challenging !!!
I have finished the game and i really miss "my Deathknight" !
The fights without him are less fun.

How many hours have you played Beyond Divinity ?
Which difficulty level do you play ?
Have you finished the Act 1 ?

I guess that I could change my signature and write :
[color:"orange"]Don't judge Beyond Divinity on Act 1 !!! [/color]

Barta

Sorry I have to agree completely with the first post.

The two character system could be good (I much prefer Icewind dale to Neverwinter Nights for example) but it is just incomplete. Presently it seems totally random which of the two characters if any will carry out an action (not always the leader).

You don't have to say sorry !
You don't like the game, i will not try to convince you that it's a good game !

I tryed the demo of Sacred. I did not enjoy to play it and i will not buy this game.
Not because it is a bad game, just because i did not like it.

A lot of anonymous people are reading the posts in this forum to get informations about Beyond Divinity.
If they only read posts of people who are complaining they will think that this game is bad. And it is not true.

Beyond Divinity is a very good game

I want to say to these anonymous people :
Download the demo, try it and if you don't enjoy it, don't buy the game !

Barta

Though parts of the demo have been changed. Voicy wise. And some of the other things.

And the game is much better than the demo.

Mhmm.

Wait.

What did I say? Sorry, its the heat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

I do not understand this excuse. It's old and fast getting stale. I still can't bring myself to play BD very far, and I'm sorry, a step backward in term of technical aspects -- interface, gameplay, even the graphics -- really should not be chalked up to "it's a different game!" tomfoolery. BD clearly suffers from a severe lack of polish and the "trying too hard" syndrome. If I hadn't played DD before, I would have been even more disgusted. As it is, I've played DD, and know that Larian is clearly capable of doing better.



And therein lies a logical flaw. What makes you think it's as good as the interface in DD if a player needs a few hours to get used to it, whereas DD's interface is much more intuitive and takes only a few minutes of familiarizing?



*sighs* Why are you telling people what they will think, or not think? Are you psychic?



You know, it's the game's responsibility to capture the player's interest; no customer is under any sort of obligation to grit their teeth and trudge on despite the constant headache the game induces. If the first part is lackluster and off-putting, can you blame people for not having the motivation to continue playing?



And what about the fanpoodles who say that the demo doesn't do the game justice at all, and that you shouldn't judge the game by its demo?

@ Winterfox

First thank you. It's the very first time after one year that you take care about one of my post !


2 different games = 2 different interfaces
2 different games = 2 different skill systems
2 different games = 2 different strategy fights (with the DK)
It was just what i meaned !



It is not because some people need more time to understand something that this thing is not good.
It just means that these persons are less intelligent than some other ones.
The interface of BD is very good and if you can't use it because it's not enough intuitive for you it is not the fault of Larian !!!



[color:"orange"]Yes definetely i am psychic [/color]



I really like the first part. But i think that the other acts are better because they are less linear and they contain more quests.
If you have headaches when you are playing games, stop playing games, they are bad for you !



I don't agree with the fanpoodles.
The game demo gives a good idea about the interface, the skill system, the fights with 2 chars and the graphics.

If you really don't like the demo, it's better of not buying the game or to buy a second hand game or to wait for the budget version.
Larian will lose some customers, but there will be less people complaining in the world's forums, which are very bad commercials for the game.

Barta

Nope, I don't blame people losing motivation, this happened to me in a lot of games, too. But, as I didn't play the Div demo and bought the game at once, I would've missed a lot if I had judged it merely via the Aleroth dungeons (in the demo). Same in the case for BD => Act 1 is a dungeon crawler as some call it. The other acts are different. So, I take Barta's post as a suggestion, what's wrong in that? I don't consider it a blame.

If I dislike a game, I simply uninstall it. Example: I liked the Sacred demo and therefore bought the game => didn't motivate me for long. Is it a bad game now? Nope, just not suitable for this gamer here, c'est tout. Same for other games, such as Arcanum, Morrowind, Gothic 1/2, Dungeon Siege/Aranna, Diablo. Are they bad games? Nope... <read above>. Is my opinion relevant for a different gamer style? Nope.


These "fanpoodles" will be put into perspective by other "enlightened" mythological "creatures" claiming the opposite. Opinions will always differ, it's called plurality of taste. No need to discredit either side IMO.
Kiya

Suggestion: If a demo does not give the correct impression, what about borrowing a game from a videotheque for a few days or from a library to get a better idea if the game is suitable for the gamer or not? Might save frustration and helps to make up one's own mind.

Kiya, sadly, at least in my state/city, we do not have games at libraries. I can only guess it is because people would pirate them, but it remains the same. You can't try out the whole game, just a demo or buy the game. Or some people pirate it.

I really wish we could have games a libraries, but at here we can not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

Okay, how about this:

DD: Intuitive interface -- BD: Clunky, clumsy interface
DD: Buggy, but playable out of the box -- BD: Exceedingly buggy, almost ToEE's equal, barely playable out of the box
DD: Stats that are necessary -- BD: Full of fluff stats that just clutter up the character sheet and redundant types of damage/resistance (egads, if you want to ape D&D, at least do it with some modicum of elegance. Or don't try. Stick with the Diablo-like simplicity, why don't we?)



Oh, dear, we are only a few posts in and you're already slinging ad hominem attacks? Tut-tut. Can you blame me, Kiya, for being patronizing? Or dismissive of some people's opinions? I'm afraid that I can't take a "You're too stupid to comprehend [artist/developer/author]'s genius! [Artist/developer/author] can do no wrong!" knee-jerk reaction very seriously. Can you?

My point is that the BD interface is not so much difficult to understand as exceedingly clumsy. The character sheet brims with a ridiculous amount of numbers; the party control is terribly unpolished (so sorry, but I've seen better in just about, oh, every other game that lets you control multiple characters); the targeting is atrocious; the skills severely lack details/explanations. And so on and so forth.



I refuse to dignify these with a response. Again, can't blame me for being patronizing. *giggles*



Fuh? I thought the forum is here for customers to, uh, give feedback? Negative and positive alike -- y'know, honest feedback?

Nope, who am I to ask you for a change in your communication style? If you feel comfortable with it, go ahead. I'm sure, you're tolerant enough then to not blame me for not taking you seriously? But you can dismiss, too if you wish, makes no difference to me.

Kiya <wishing for a permanent potion of tolerance for this forum>

BTW, if a game gives me a headache, I uninstall. Barta's advice is strictly medical IMO. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Hi Winterfox


[color:"orange"]It is YOUR personal judgement.
I say this for the last time :
I think that BD has a good interface. I don't try to convince anybody, i just give my opinion too [/color]



[color:"orange"]I just found minor bugs in BD, no big problems.
Maybe i was extremely lucky, maybe this game is exceedingly buggy for all the other people.
I don't know. [/color]



[color:"orange"]Both in Divine Divinity and Beyond Divinity i used very few stats, very few skills and very few potions.
I would not say that there are too much stats, skills or potions in these games.
I will say that Larian give us THE CHOICE to play how we want and it's great.
[/color]



[color:"orange"] Yes it was a personal attack ! Who said that i am psychic ? [/color]




[color:"orange"]I was not talking of this forum but of all the forums in the world.
You talk of honest feedback but you can be honest and partial too.
You don't like the game : you give a negative feedback ===> You are honest
But when you say the game sucks, it has a bad interface ==> you are partial
Because it is a personal judgement and YOUR judgement is not more valuable than other people judgement.

And now i am going to end with this :

Winterfox doesn't like Beyond Divininity : 1 point
Barta likes Beyond Divinity : 1 point

End of the match : 1/1 equality

Barta[/color]

Well, I was hesitant to buy Beyond Divinity. I loved the first, with maybe exception at the end when it was all just diablo-esque to make you level up. Right up until you were reborn it was great, after that it was good. However, it remains one of the greatest games I've played (right up there with Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR).

Anyway, I was hesitant and I didn't play much of the demo. I lost interest in that in a minute. However, after bolting down and purchasing it, I can say I am having a lot of fun playing it! My Death Knight is a straight-forward melee fighter and my created character is a spellcaster. I am in Act II and I'm loving it. Sure, it doesn't have the expansive environment that Divine did, but it still is pretty much the same game to me. I love the battlefields and how they are optional, but I find myself doing them anyway as soon as I find the key (and I am not a big Diablo fan...I'm an older time RPG'er from the Ultima 7 and Might and Magic III days).

This game is great, in my opinion. The only thing that I might have preferred is a traditional skill-spell system rather than what they have. I like Divine's much better, however, Beyond's works too.

The voice acting could be nauseating at times (...you have to wonder if they actually listened to the dialogue before it was released), but it doesn't detract from my game experience because I feel the gameplay is that good.

Beyond isn't a step backwards, it is a step sideways with a little step forwards, while we are waiting for Divine Divinity 2. As a game, I have to say "Great Job Larian! Thank you for making a fun game!", unlike the boredom that is Morrowind (which I did beat BTW).

Oh, the game is not unplayable out of the box. I've only found minor bugs.

Also, the interface works fine. Once you get used to playing two characters, it becomes second nature. It actually reminds you more of Ultima 7 because of that.

You can't judge this game by the demo. This game is great and I'm loving it! I'm sorry not everyone feels this way.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" />

Hello all, this is my first post to these forums.

My experience is a little unusual. I had seen DD advertised before but never picked it up, and the main reason why I purchased BD was the offer of recieving DD for free with it. Two games for the price of one, who can beat that? Nevermind the fact that my copy of BD didn't come with DD - I was so pleased with BD that I later went and purchased the first game.

I played BD entirely through Act 1, and about halfway through Act 2 by my reckoning before DD arrived in the mail and I installed it.

Interestingly enough, I am now completely hooked on DD, and haven't had any desire to play BD since I started DD.

In my opinion, the plotline of DD seems far superior, as is the fundamental playability. Having to switch between two characters wasn't much of an issue for me in BD, and the skill tree is not confusing, although it can be irritating at times. One thing, though... I have to play BD with the volume off because the voices seem overdone and cliche, and downright irritates me - especially the Death Knight's. His voice makes me cringe. No offense intended, simply opinion.

BD is still a good game, and worth the money, but I have to agree that DD has a much higher 'fun' and 'enjoyment' factor, which is crucial to any game.

*sighs* You did, my pretty. I asked, "Are you psychic?" You said that, yes, you indeed are. (Yes, I understand it's sarcastic, but there you go.) Oh, and I wasn't aware "psychic" can be taken as an insult, as opposed to "stupid." You have an interesting set of delicate sensibilities. Also, what you said was a sweeping generalization that insulted people en masse: not just me, but anybody who disagrees with you where BD's interface is concerned. Well done.



Did I say the game sucks? What does honesty have to do with impartiality or lack thereof, anyway?

After having completed the game, I’d have to agree with both points of view.
In my opinion, Beyond is nowhere near as good as DD. Does this make it bad? Absolutely not. But where I would rate DD in the 90 percentile (in fact, I believe next to Zork it’s my favorite rpg ever), BD would rate about a flat 60%.

Interest (quests, riddles, etc.): 90
Story: 85
Character development: 50
Challenge: 20
Fun factor: 80

Graphics: 50
Interface: 30
Documentation: 20

Interest, story, character dev, challenge, fun factor = x1 (325)
Graphics, interface and documentation = x1/3 (100 divided by 3, = 33)
358 divided by 6 = 59.7%


Please keep in mind that these are simply my opinions.


The bad (and I’ll try to support my opinions) -

the clumsy interface. If you’re going to provide for two characters to be run simultaneously, you MUST also provide a way for us to switch between these characters to facilitate healing potions, spell use, etc. And NO, the pause (spacebar) is NOT an acceptable alternative.
This may work fine for those of you (us) that don’t mind taking a break to plan strategy, heal, etc. – but those of us who prefer to win ‘on the fly’ are horribly cheated. To us, using the pause is like playing a timed chess match and being able to call timeout whenever you please. Not good.
Besides, I don’t believe for a second that the pause was intended to HAVE to be used – it should be there as a luxury, not a necessity - it simply wasn’t finished.
Heck, even having the ‘leader’ selected doesn’t necessarily provide for the correct character doing the desired action.
The interface isn’t only NOT intuitive; it simply doesn’t work in some regards.

Here is my biggest complaint. For a game to be designed without taking into account the most, uh, thorough player is a damn shame (at the very least).
I play EVERY rpg to be the best I can be. I don’t rush through anything, I kill ALL the monsters, play ALL the quests, explore ALL the black (fog of war) – and by doing this in BD I was rewarded with what? Two characters that were so silly in their power as to suffer NO challenge what-so-ever. And yes, I played on hardcore. Also, please don’t give some lame option like ‘don’t play the battlefields then…’. The game is designed WITH battlefields – of course I’m going to do them! Read the rest of this paragraph.
I can see two ways of fixing this – a) provide an ‘extreme’ option (after hardcore) that will/would kick your butt, or b) create an engine that recognizes the individual's strengths and spawns accordingly.

Personally, I like rpgs with only one character to control (and to maximize their profile). While running two is somewhat interesting (planescape was pretty cool in this), I like doing everything with my character. I didn’t even use the dolls. I want to succeed without aid (I don’t use dolls, summons, npcs, traps). If I want to play with numerous characters, I’ll play NWN or baldur’s gate with my friends (and I do). Just give me a bow and let me go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

The skills are cluttered and without documentation, far too dependant upon trial and error. Singlehand, doublehand, and single with shield? All for a sword? Okay, I can live with this – but now let’s add shadow swords as a separate option and NOT have shadow as a separate option for bows. Hmmmm. Consistency please.

A near total lack of documentation. If you don’t go to the forums, good dang luck understanding alchemy, holy water, no lockpicking, luck, making permanent potions, quests that don’t show up or show up repeatedly (I could go on and on…).

Far too linear. This is not a complaint exclusive to BD. It’s an inherent problem with almost all prgs – it just so happens that DD was superb along these lines.

A near total lack of hotkeys. Not good.

there are a number of other ‘bad’ things for me also – the unique (green) items not being finished, the numerous bugs in gameplay, at least 2 battlefield keys not even in the game, etc.



the good –

I love all the quests and how they (at least) are not linear, requiring thought, planning, and some, but not obnoxious, retracing of steps.

I love the multiple aspects to the creation (building) of the character – evasion, speed, accuracy, armor class, etc. and figuring what exactly works for this character to develop them to their maximum.
The tradeoffs and consequences of choice(s) are very complex and fun to analyze in furthering this development.

The story was quite engaging and kept my interest. Well done.

There are a TON of items and learning how they contribute to the advancement of the character is/was truly fun.

The interesting weapon and clothing choices (my bow-azon ONLY wore a hat – no helm to mess up her hair. Ha!! And she looked quite bitchin’)

Riddles are always a hit with me!

The idea of the battlefields. Larian’s games are very demanding on the player to figure things out (unless you take the easy way out and read walkthroughs – and no, that’s not a slam against walkthroughs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), thus being somewhat fatiguing. The battlefields are/could be an easy mindless diversion from the constant ‘thinking’ while allowing the player to continue pursuing their goal.

As much as I complain about the skilltree and it’s lack of documentation, I also love it for it’s attempt at focusing your character creation. I personally like the more specialized aspects over the jack-of-all-trades type.


This is all just off the top of my head, and even 60% is far from bad (it’s still ahead of Diablo II and Sacred, for me any way, and i played both).
I recommend this game. It’s worthy of your time and money. And if your style of play doesn’t require maximizing your character or completing every quest or uncovering all the black, you’ll probably rate it even higher than I have.

And remember, this is just my opinion.

This thing starts to amuse me. A lot.