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#256372 26/07/04 06:54 AM
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I'm a little confused here, this isn't the first time I've seen a comment about not being able to switch between characters quickly and easily; the game sets F1 key to first character (all the way to right, hero), F2 to second character (DK), F3 to third character (doll). If you want to select a character, just hit the key, unless you re-mapped it, and that'd be your fault, though I'll admit more hotkeys (a lot more) would have been nice. So what do people mean when they say there's no easy way to switch between characters, it makes no sense to me unless I'm missing something which is entirely possible...

As for the potion problem, once you have enough potions that you don't have to worry about them (i.e. as soon as you get first BF key, *sigh*), just set f6 to medium red, f7 medium blue, f8 medium white, or use smalls until you accumulate the mediums. Granted this will eat up most of your action shortcut hotkeys, but how many skills do you use anyway in a game that really encourages specialization in just a couple? For that matter, give a doll alchemy combine if you don't have it on a character and use nothing but medium whites and get back 2 shortcut keys.

I always know which character is drinking the potion, just don't open the potion menu which is what messes things up. Hit f1 f6, hero healed as long as no one elses potion menu is open. I'll admit f1 f6 while in real time combat isn't exactly the ideal hotkey combination though, especially with one hand on the mouse and the other trying to hover near ctrl key for when you need a new target <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

#256373 26/07/04 07:20 AM
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(sorry, but) you've simply got to be kidding, yes???
IF you change that way, you choose the individual character, and while yes, you can drink a potion, you are then left with having to click a third key to have the 'group' again.
in a heated battle, there is not enough time to click twice , let alone three different keys.
so five(!!!!!!) keys to have both drink a potion??????? that's simply ridiculous.
obviously you play with the spacebar (pause) and/or on easy difficulty.
and btw, there is indeed a way to have almost all your keys be hotkeys, not just the 'F' keys.
besides, potions are not the only problem...

#256374 26/07/04 09:46 AM
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[color:"yellow"]WARNING: Post contains spoilers! Please don't read if you have not played the game[/color]

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Lego:
the clumsy interface. If you’re going to provide for two characters to be run simultaneously, you MUST also provide a way for us to switch between these characters to facilitate healing potions, spell use, etc. And NO, the pause (spacebar) is NOT an acceptable alternative.
This may work fine for those of you (us) that don’t mind taking a break to plan strategy, heal, etc. – but those of us who prefer to win ‘on the fly’ are horribly cheated. To us, using the pause is like playing a timed chess match and being able to call timeout whenever you please. Not good.


Hm, I like playing in peace - so the spacebar or another possibility to stop the game flow and let me think/act/choose as I was accustomed to in turn-based games is suitable for the way I like to play. "On the fly" puts me under stress. I needed time to understand and use the interface, but I'm not a great hotkey fan (except for inventory, map etc.) As I dislike hack&slash, and therefore avoided the battlefields, my chars were pretty weak, so I needed the space bar. I liked the icon idea for active skills/spells, so I could choose in peace.
About interface in general => this is strictly subjective now: it's part of the game fun/challenge for me to find out how a game works. I love controls, meddling with them and getting aha-effects. I like to experiment and enjoy my progress in this. Clumsy? Hm, strange, if I can't cope with something, I consider myself clumsy and try to improve. Just my approach towards a game.

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The interface isn’t only NOT intuitive; it simply doesn’t work in some regards

No, it isn't intuitive - if intuitive is meant as => understood at the first glance. I liked the challenge to understand it.

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Personally, I like rpgs with only one character to control (and to maximize their profile).

Same here, therefore I tried this for my main char and restricted myself to very few skills and spells. The amount of abilities on the skill tree was huge, so I required discipline. I liked the lack of skill points, as not to overpower my char.
If Div had not given me the opportunity to buy books and therefore learn a lot of spells, I would have restricted myself there, too.

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The skills are cluttered and without documentation, far too dependant upon trial and error. Singlehand, doublehand, and single with shield? All for a sword? Okay, I can live with this – but now let’s add shadow swords as a separate option and NOT have shadow as a separate option for bows. Hmmmm. Consistency please.

I think, the weapon options were a bit too many. It wasn't all about swords - it was about melee weapons in general. I was glad not to need additional shadow points for my bow as well. But you are correct, the missing shadow/bone option for ranged weapons is inconsistent.

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A near total lack of documentation. If you don’t go to the forums, good dang luck understanding alchemy, holy water, no lockpicking, luck, making permanent potions, quests that don’t show up or show up repeatedly (I could go on and on…).

I'll leave out lockpick, as this is a bug (hopefully fixable?) - the quest log is unsatisfactory for quests. The German version showed up quests (specially in Act 3). About the manual => I agree, alchemy should have been explained better - or a NPC should have informed within the game about plants/holy water. About luck => hm, what would you have liked? An explanation about exact percentage? How important it is to have both chars with the same value?

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Far too linear.

Hm, the non-linearity in Div caused problems - the linearity in BD causes problems. How to explain this to a gamer without destroying the game flow? A message such as "item required"? In the way of: "main quest, caution, leads to the next act"? True, it's not obvious that a sentence from the DK to disguise yourself is crucial for Act 1 - or that giving the alchemy ingredients to the alchemist in Act 2 leads to Act 3. How to know that the char's request to leave the world of Act 2 occurs by fulfilling the help request of the chieftain's son? Though he SAID: I will help you to leave if..." Hm, maybe different coloured speech options? Or maybe different coloured log entries?
The way the plot was designed (in acts) - would you have preferred the possibility to return to previous acts? Gee, I can see my char wandering through all acts and not knowing how to proceed then. And it would not have been logical: the Citadel was blown up, if I used the bomb. How to include the possibility if I had merely used the key? What's the point in roaming over Act 2 after most have been killed?
Isn't it "logical" to go a linear way to escape from this world act per act and return home?

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the unique (green) items not being finished, the numerous bugs in gameplay, at least 2 battlefield keys not even in the game, etc.

Agreed - I would have preferred no special items in this case - and the lacking BF keys were not good, as Act 4 does not allow entry into the 6th dungeon.

I'm not qualified to press a game into a percentage - my lines are:
is the game fun for me?
does the plot keep me hooked?
is the world detailed, does it have atmosphere? Humour?
Can I identify myself with my char? (most important for me)
Do I develop emotions for this world, the NPC? Do I wish to take sides?
Is there a lot to explore? Solve? Read? Decipher? Admire?
Are there strange things puzzling me, do I want to understand?

It did in BD for me. Is it a good game? Nope, just the game suitable for my playing style. Is it a bad game? Nope, just not suitable for other playing styles.
Kiya

PS: the game needs another patch IMO - but not one including more (partly excluding) gamer wishes/features such as those introduced into the 1.40er versions. I wish for a logical quest log, closing the leaks that lead chars into the In-Between-World - quest bugs - crashes, hanging cut scenes some still encounter, lockpick etc. And maybe a readme file, explaing what was not included into the manual (alchemy, skill descriptions come to my mind).

Edit: There IS one feature I would like to have added => a warning, if I click on an animal by accident and am in combat mode (like in Act 1 with the rats) - but I do not know how complicated this will be.

2nd edit: voice acting => I prefer to play without voice, as I tend to stress dialogue differently as a voice would. And I consider my own fantasy voice mostly superior to the fix one. Same goes for reading a book instead of watching the movie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> => again strictly subjective.

Last edited by kiya; 26/07/04 09:59 AM.
#256375 26/07/04 07:45 PM
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@ Winterfox

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*sighs* You did, my pretty. I asked, "Are you psychic?" You said that, yes, you indeed are. (Yes, I understand it's sarcastic, but there you go.) Oh, and I wasn't aware "psychic" can be taken as an insult, as opposed to "stupid." You have an interesting set of delicate sensibilities. Also, what you said was a sweeping generalization that insulted people en masse: not just me, but anybody who disagrees with you where BD's interface is concerned. Well done.

Oh please ! Don't change my words !

This is exactely what i said :
[color:"yellow"]It is not because some people need more time to understand something that this thing is not good.
It just means that these persons are less intelligent than some other ones. [/color]

I said "Less intelligent" and it does not mean stupid !!!!!!!

When i am reading the topics in this forum i realise that some people here are more intelligent than me because they can understand things faster than me.
But i don't think that i am stupid, i just think that i am less intelligent than X or Y (i don't give the real names of these persons).

Quote
Did I say the game sucks?

You did not say that the game sucks. You just said :

Quote
DD: Intuitive interface -- BD: Clunky, clumsy interface
DD: Buggy, but playable out of the box -- BD: Exceedingly buggy, almost ToEE's equal, barely playable out of the box
DD: Stats that are necessary -- BD: Full of fluff stats that just clutter up the character sheet and redundant types of damage/resistance (egads, if you want to ape D&D, at least do it with some modicum of elegance. Or don't try. Stick with the Diablo-like simplicity, why don't we?)

[color:"yellow"]Reading what you have written, someone who do not know the game will think :
Whaooh THIS GAME SUCKS !!!!! [/color]
You are playing with words.

I have said what i have to say and i think that i will not answer anymore.
Ciao Winterfox
Have fun with Beyond Divinity <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" />

Barta


[color:"yellow"]Kiya wrote:
I'm not qualified to press a game into a percentage - my lines are:
is the game fun for me?
does the plot keep me hooked?
is the world detailed, does it have atmosphere? Humour?
Can I identify myself with my char? (most important for me)
Do I develop emotions for this world, the NPC? Do I wish to take sides?
Is there a lot to explore? Solve? Read? Decipher? Admire?
Are there strange things puzzling me, do I want to understand?

It did in BD for me. Is it a good game? Nope, just the game suitable for my playing style.
Is it a bad game? Nope, just not suitable for other playing styles. [/color]

I would answer YES to all these questions. It's why i like Beyond Divinity

#256376 27/07/04 06:38 AM
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I would answer yes to those questions too. So it makes three of us. Btw I am still playing it and have fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


You can have my absence of faith
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#256377 27/07/04 07:11 AM
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well, playing a game (any game, not just pc, for that matter) is all about having fun. if someone doesn't derive fun from playing bd, then there is no point for him/her to continue playing.

as for me, i'm having so much fun playing a shifter in hotu that i can't stop playing it. boy, i've never gotten so much enjoyment out of one character in a pc game since i played an overlord necro in diablo ii:lod.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />


"what we see with our eyes alone isn't necessarily the truth..." - final fantasy tactics
#256378 27/07/04 10:55 AM
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well, playing a game (any game, not just pc, for that matter) is all about having fun. if someone doesn't derive fun from playing bd, then there is no point for him/her to continue playing.


Very true, Crusader <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - as long as a gamer keeps this in mind and knows which his/her personal preferences are to gain fun (and knows what puts her/him off), I think frustration and disappointment can be moderated.

And here I believe, other opinions can be helpful if the potential gamer wants to buy a game and get informations from those playing it: this gamer says, what she/he likes and wants in a game - the others answer. Demos are only a limited source to get a gripe for a game from my XP. Gee, had I known that unlimited monster respawn was in Sacred, I wouldn't have bought it, in spite of the demo. Maybe I missed this info, though I searched reviews and the forum there. In any case, as I know my preferences very well (NO monster respawn - never!), I don't blame it on the game - maybe I should have researched thoroughly and not bought the game at once. So, I'll keep this in mind and not buy rashly again.

Judgementals are unnecessary then IMO, such as: clumsy interface, graphics are bad etc. Same goes for: "but I want the game to be such and such, I want to have this/that in it" (not meaning code program errors now) - or comparing game A to B, if not meant as a suggestion for the next part.
Again: my opinion is strictly subjective.
Kiya

#256379 28/07/04 02:28 AM
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interesting kiy.
you know i like and respect you (quite a lot), but i have to totally disagree with you here -

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Judgementals are unnecessary then IMO, such as: clumsy interface, graphics are bad etc.

unless i'm missing something huge (which, i admit, is entirely possible), you're effectively saying that one cannot dislike qualities
of a game and still like the overall product.
i think you're rather unique in your ability to accept and appreciate ANY game on it's own merits...but most are
not like this.
the way you are, ANY game you play is either great or not great (and discarded). making each game you play the best game
you've played, to some degree.
personally, i can quite clearly state that certain games are great and some are not. and i have very strong reasons for this.
i can also state that ALL games fall into a statistical hierarchy for me - zork and DD being toward the top, dungeon siege and
diablo II being toward the lower end. i simply don't derive the same level of satisfaction for all games - but this in no way implies
i don't like them or won't play them. and i think a lot of people are like me in this regard.
and don't get me wrong, there are also those miserable pieces of crap that don't deserve either your time or money. they
don't count.
But I can also state that I like vanilla or coffee flavored ice cream much more than I like peach, but peach is pretty good too.
I like the band YES a lot more than king crimson, but that doesn’t mean king crimson is bad.
I prefer my suv over the bus, but that doesn’t mean public transportation is sucks (well, actually, here in seattle, it does! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
I’ll drink a 1997 allegrini amarone over dang near anything, but that doesn’t mean a 1976 lafite is bad – I simply prefer certain things.
you also state that you wish you'd been able to find out that Sacred had monster respawn, while also stating that
you'd not have purchased the game had you known this prior.
well i ask, what's the difference when we (the gaming community) state (their opinion) that the interface is not only clumsy but
seriously lacking? is it not possible that potential future buyers will read these forums and see/read our concerns? is this not
exactly what you were wishing you'd found for Sacred? someone who had stood up and said ' i hate unlimited monster respawn
and Sacred has it!'
this doesn't even address the (distinct) possibility that a Larian member might also read these posts and understand our
concerns.

nowhere in my post did i say BD is/was a bad game - it's just not as good as it could have been and is a shadow to DD. but i
also stated i liked it, as have a number of other posters who pointed out flaws.
so far, no game has ever scored a '100' (for me), so there is always room for improvement. if you like having to hit the spacebar all the
time and pausing the action, you'll not find the interface quite so flawed - or if you don't mind hitting 5 total keys to drink two
potions (also while paused, 'cause it takes too much time and you'll die), the same - but to me, that's just poor design. and
future buyers deserve to hear our valid opinions.
all that needs be done is read all the posts concerning potions/hotkeys/making permanent potions/etc. to realize the scope of the
issue. this is not a single person saying this, it's far, far too many. give these people their right to disagree that this game is
perfect (as it seems a lot would imply).
my gosh, an interface SHOULDN'T require time to 'figure out' when it only does so few things !! hello!

as i said before, i enjoyed the game, i recommend the game - it's just far from polished.

BTW, the targeting WAS terrible in the demo. if people hadn't raised hell, it might not have been fixed for the retail version.
personally, i applaud those who have legitimate gripes/concerns and state them.
believe me, it's a lot easier to be a 'fanpoodle' and simply rave than to be the one(s) to say ANYTHING negative here. there
is minimal tolerance in this forum, and that's too bad. i've seen far too many people ripped for bringing up legit problems. what?
all of us who bring up these legitimate problems are simply wrong? and those who wish to kiss someone's back-end (to what
benefit, it beats me!) are right? geez. you help no one with this attitude.
HINT: if one person says you stink, you can continue on and say 'no i don't'. but when 100 people tell you - take a damn shower.
to me, the best fan is the fan who states what they like and dislike and WHY. this gives the company (Larian in this case) the
opportunity to create better and better products - and this only translates into more money (higher sales) for said company. it
also helps out your fellow gamer tremendously in their decision making process.
but when all that is ever said is 'gee! this is the best game ever!' even when you know it's not, does absolutely no one any
good - including those who spout it.
my guess is that the Larian people absolutely want to hear what does and doesn't work in their games.

lucretia - what can i say but...way to contribute! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

#256380 28/07/04 06:35 AM
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lucretia - what can i say but...way to contribute!
lego
--------------------------------------------------
I am sorry lego but I did not get that. Could you explain please?
Thnx in advance.


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you can have my everything...

#256381 28/07/04 11:50 AM
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Obviously my intention was written in a clumsy way, Lego <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
My opinion is this: "clumsy" is a judgemental expression IMO. Whereas I like icon interfaces, some prefer hotkeys e.g.

And I didn't mean your post was judgemental, see? How to express it in a better way?
And no, not the game I'm playing at the moment is the "best" game for me. I still have my favourites. And they are neither good/bad (judgemental) - they are interesting for me to play or not, for totally subjective reasons and preferences.

So, in order to help a gamer to decide if a game is fun: I need to know his/her own preferences first, see? Why? Because they might not be mine. If I simply say: this game is good/bad => this helps no one.

And yes, stating what you like/dislike about the game you played, displays your own preferences - this is helpful. As the gamer can check if his/her preferences are your's. Or vice versa.

Example: I would like to buy Sacred and ask, how is this game? You would answer: "Good, gee, tremendous. Wonderful graphics, music, loot, runes etc." And - just imagine, you would be a monster respawn fan, but you have no idea I dislike this (How can you? I didn't say what I like/dislike, right?) - or you are a hotkey fan and don't know I prefer icons (cause I didn't mention it) => I would buy the game and be disappointed. And why? Because I didn't state clearly what I like/dislike, whereas you might not mention these crucial pts, cause you can't mindread.

Another example => bad graphics. I am a fan of 2D graphics, I don't really like 3D. Yes, my opinion might be that of a minority, but are 2D/3D graphics good or bad? Nope, they aren't. So, the info => this game has 2D or 3D or a mix, would help me to decide (in this case the demo would help me). I played Wizardry 8 - soooo much fun for me, but I know, many said the graphics suck. I read reviews, where people said: Div has ugly graphics - and I wondered about this. See? It's about preferences again.

Errhm, how clear am I now?
Kiya
Quote
i've seen far too many people ripped for bringing up legit problems. what?
all of us who bring up these legitimate problems are simply wrong? and those who wish to kiss someone's back-end (to what
benefit, it beats me!) are right? geez.

A bit polemic now, hm? I like BD and I respect it if others don't - my post went more into the way of: personal preferences. Purely RL speed games with no possibility to pause, put me under stress. And I respect it, if a gamer prefers the flow, but this is not my way to play - so a RL speed game would not be the game I buy. What spoils your fun, might be mine and vice versa.

I wrote down what a game is for me and which questions have to be fulfilled, so I have fun. I, a singular, subjective gamer. And if you would read my second last post => I wrote that I wish for a new patch, where code program errors would be fixed. Would I do this, if I consider the game perfect?

Please, don't discredit with the expressions of "fanpoodles" or "kissing someone's back-end". What has this to do with the game?

Last edited by kiya; 28/07/04 12:17 PM.
#256382 28/07/04 02:26 PM
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kiy
i wish i had more time to respond to this, but i'm running to a flight...
trust me - neither the 'fanpoodle' or 'kiss...' comment(s) were directed toward you. i thought i was clear there, but i guess not. i apologize.
you've always held your opinions and been happy and capable of supporting them. however, there are a lot of others who simply rail against anyone and everyone who disagree regarding the 'perfect' nature of this (or insert game name here) particular game.
too many are the comments like 'well, i didn't experience crashes, so it must be YOUR computer's problem', or 'well, there are 6 of us who think this is the best game ever, so if you're complaining you must be delusional'.
it's this kind of crap that is wearing - and fully deserves the moniker 'fanpoodle'. not you.
i have to run, though there is more to say.
i'll be back tomorrow.
lego

#256383 29/07/04 07:48 AM
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@ lego
If you are referring to me, even though you did not had the kindness to explain your comment in your previous post, let me inform you that I have already wrote a review about the game, in www.gamerspot.gr which justifies my opinion about it. I have already posted a translation of that review. So I do not feel obligated to explain every time why I have this opinion for the game. Anyone who wants to know about my opinion can simply read the review. So I guess that would be enough.
Have a nice trip.
Luc


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you can have my everything...

#256384 29/07/04 03:57 PM
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http://www.yesmagazine.com/6RxforEarth/rosenberg.htm

If anyone is interested: this is a link to Marshall B. Rosenberg, an international conflict mediator who wrote several books about non-violent communication. This interview gives a short glimpse about his "giraffe-language".

I know, my link is off-topic, but when it comes to pro/cons about BD or other controversial topics => maybe reading this would help?
Kiya

#256385 29/07/04 05:39 PM
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Quote

BD control system is a nightmare, half the time your not sure which character you are controlling and when it comes to a battle the constant swaping from one character to another takes away any enjoyment that could be had from it. The skills interface is too complex and just detracts from the game.


You people do know that you can make Beyond Divinity control like Divine Divinity, right? Right?

Select both characters and HOLD the mouse button down wherever you want to go. The leader will always be in front while the other guy will always be in the back following the leader. I found the game ALOT more enjoyable once I figured this out.

In many respects, I think that Beyond Divinity is a big step forward, especially in terms of character development. My only problem with this game (only for now hopefully) is the bugs.

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these are very nice words indeed.
but i wonder why you give ous a spamming advertisment link to removed ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by rat; 29/07/04 11:44 PM.

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#256388 30/07/04 07:26 AM
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Quote
http://www.yesmagazine.com/6RxforEarth/rosenberg.htm

If anyone is interested: this is a link to Marshall B. Rosenberg, an international conflict mediator who wrote several books about non-violent communication. This interview gives a short glimpse about his "giraffe-language".

I know, my link is off-topic, but when it comes to pro/cons about BD or other controversial topics => maybe reading this would help?
Kiya


Ironically it would be a step forwards if people read this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the link Kiya


Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***
#256389 30/07/04 08:18 AM
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Did you go into the link at the end, Kej? I'm currently browsing the nvc org. site and checking, how often I use "jackal language" myself, by not using NVC principles.

http://www.cnvc.org/anger.htm

Quote
Let’s really focus our consciousness on our human needs, feelings and need-fulfilling actions. Now anger is a feeling, but anger tells us that a cancerous intruder has come in. We have a need that isn’t getting met, therefore it is creating some feelings, but we are thinking in a way that serves domination systems, and this is putting a toxic energy into a natural system. Anger and its cousins, depression, guilt and shame, are all a part of domination systems.

Anger tells us we are thinking the bad guy is somebody else. With depression, guilt and shame we are the bad guy, these are the feelings that result from the thinking of domination systems.


What has this got to do with BD? I think a lot. This game seems to meet needs of some people and not in other cases. And I think both sides are not listening to the need of the other side (including me), but concentrating on their fulfilled need they get from BD or their not fullfilled need from BD.

We're all talking, who is listening?

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well i guess 'off topic' would be a bit simplistic at this point...and there is no point in furthering this discussion (other than to respond to zebulahn - your point is valid, but not at all what's being refered to in the posts. i believe most everyone knows how to 'guide' the party - leader, follower - this is instead concerning other aspects involved with 'leader', etc. but thanks for posting and trying to assist, it's appreciated)

#256391 30/07/04 09:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2003
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Did you go into the link at the end, Kej? I'm currently browsing the nvc org. site and checking, how often I use "jackal language" myself, by not using NVC principles.


Yeah, but only had a quick browse through -- I'm still at work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***
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