Larian Studios Forums General Chat RPG Chat Are story focused RPGs dying out?

Then I wouldn't be included in "most people".
If I recall correctly, the upcoming Xbox RPG "Fable" will feature a rather similar conversation, except that it's mostly emotions you combine.
I am afraid I know little of that. What about you, errr, fable-forummember?

You mean pictograms. Modern Egyptians do not use a pictographic language, but I know what you mean. Languages start with pictograms for each concept, then typically move into a stage where individual syllables are represented by increasingly abstract pictograms. They then move to what can be briefly called a "one sound=one letter" format. Of course, languages can stop anywhere along this line, and have, as you point out. Chinese and Japanese are examples of the first stage. But we all use symbols every day, usually without being aware how common they are in our lives. And words as such are translated by our minds into symbols or series of symbols during mental processing.

But uh, for most people, I think the response would be: WTF is this?

You don't understand that a "house" in the IE button bar stands for your designated homepage, or that a red X means "stop"? You have to scroll down to read game titles you've got in folder, rather than selecting by icon? My point is simply that current usage sets the terms of familiarity. Crawford argued (pretty passionately, it has to be said) for a uniform language of symbols which would make it easy to communicate emotions, not just actions and items, in games. I suspect if his idea had been taken up during the formative years of computer gaming, it would not have remained in that original state. Too many developers would have had input, and the idea would have changed to something a bit more intuitive. For example, we might have had the option to hit a given key combination and get a word representing each symbol, instead of the symbol. Had this happened, "WTF" (which is a symbol, instantly recognizable once you know the meaning without having to process the individual letters) might have been a modern response of someone reading the incredibly stiff, outtrageously two-dimensional conversation trees that pass for dialog in modern computer games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Heh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know only what you've probably read. It sounds like a revival of Crawford's idea, which wouldn't be surprising; in this business, everything is offered up as revolutionary in the belief of PR departments that gamers have memories which only go back two years at most. I am hoping to find out more before Fable appears, though, and if I do, I'll post a separate thread about it.

Fable: You know what a pain it is to learn written Chinese (or Japanese kanji), right? Even native speakers have difficulties with them. How willing, do you think, would a gamer be to learn a whole new "language" just to play a game? Unless such a "language" has practical uses in activities other than gaming, I find the prospect of anyone having the dedication to familiarize themselves with such a system of communication highly dubious. Moreover, images can generate different interpretations. Take this, for instance: in heraldry, the color purple implies nobility or royalty, but in my home country, the color stands for jealousy. A human head implies honor; a leg or a foot implies stability; a snake implies wisdom, but I find it unlikely that these will be the first meanings that come to the minds of people who haven't had heraldric studies. (The snake will probably be taken entirely the wrong way.) To borrow a quote from Ed Greenwood, "Hamlet published in Klingon is great fun, but isn’t going to hit the bestseller lists, because your average American reader can’t understand or read Klingon, and doesn’t want to; the same goes for Dr. Seuss done in Latin."

DATD said:



That's nice. But can you claim to buy, oh, a few thousand copies of a game? Face it; most people are, like it or not, the ones that matter. Companies may very well want to work on ideals, but the cold hard fact is that they need to make a living.

@Fable



well you seems to think it's really Truth... but it is nothing but one theory (among others) in modern linguistics...
you're right about fact that "symbols are at the root of language" but there may be many meanings to this intermixing of symbols...
well interesting question but unfortunately i cant be more precise there...
1) it is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />(my fault!!)
2) my english is too bad not to be really elliptic on that point

well what i wish to say is another thing anyway: as a dev / computer scientist i suspect that this arrangement of symbols may be a bit too hard to implement (? release? i mean "implementer" in french if someone can help...), anyway for a PC game... (well it was maybe not in the mid 80s but paradigm and needs have changed)
ok, i may be wrong there (i must confess that games programming is a bit far from my main interest...)

anyway thanks for the explanation

@ 'fox
i think you're right: it may be a bit confusing for "average" gamers...
at least if symbols are numerous enough...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> do you mind to give a link that works for "my hed r pastede on yay"??? please...

@DATD
obviously you're not an "average gamer" so please...
don't come to my door

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

nothing sarcastic... just really bad joke (i'm tired)

*Knock-knock* *Door opens*
Bonjour!

As far as I understood, Lionheart and Blue Box decided to make a pull-down menu with emotions. Soon we will read the reviews and see how it worked (the game's due to September-October).
There is are universal symbols, Winterfox:
Sure the snake might mean 'evil', 'wisdom', 'poison' and 'dentist/doctor' but a picture of a house means 'house', no? Even if eskimoes live in igloos and mutants live in the sewers.
A pink curved heart means 'love' and a detailed, bloody human heart means 'slaughter/murder'. I seriously think it is possible to create a universal symbol language which even aliens, with their crop-circles could understand.
At least, we can just start making games in esperanto.


Je suis desole mais je ne comprends pas. Peut-etre j'ai manque quelque chose?

"My hed iz pastede on yay"?

Translations in various languages and dialects.

There's a link to its origins (re: Crystal Gamgee w[i][/i]ank), but Journalfen isn't working at the moment, but it should be up soon and be here. If not, you can have this instead. In certain circles, the joke will never quite die. The word "pasted" has never been the same for me since.

DATD said:



Er, no, if you want to know. A heart, in heraldric symbolism, means charity and sincerity. Besides, a pink curved heart may mean love, but what kind of love? Sisterly? Platonic? Friendship? Parental? What about a red, green, purple, blue, turquoise or orange heart?



Like I said, who's willing to dedicate him/herself to the creation of this language? And how many consumers are willing to learn it? Besides, it will never quite, IMO, be eloquent enough to convey the finer nuances (diction, synonyms, etc.) of the kind of written languages are are more familiar with. So yes, give me those "stiff", "two-dimensional" dialogue trees in place of symbols that can only communicate the most rudimentary of intentions any time.

i will add one thing even logics as formal mathematics language that actually is the nearest to a universal language has become universal quite recently (Boole, Frege, Russell... sorry Winterfox can't help to quote those names)... before it was some kind of juxtaposed mathematical languages (there were aegyptian logics, indian, chinese, arabic... ect)...

and they were not made for emotion...

beside esperanto has never managed to become a "true" language...

some african people have no words/symbols for saying/showing :"snow" and eskimos have many (i don't remember how many exactly right now) for saying/showing "white"...

well even for a computer we can't make a true universal language (even java or ada 95 are not really... C and C++ not at all)...

symbols may work for the Internet because they are few...
a game needs really more if you want to communicate any emotion...

DATD: Thanks for French words it was really appreciated!

Winterfox: sorry for lack of coherence and thanks for the links...
the other one was not working

DATD: if you still wondering what you missed, well the first time winterfox was refering to "my hed is pastede on yay" is in a thread i create in the suggestion section of this site...
WINTERFOX: yes, i pasted your names on my post! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />
well i deserved that because it was pretentious and pedant... and hard to read!!!

Now back on topic: can you consider Beyond Good and Evil as an RPG?
How would you define a Role Playing Game?

- story based (can't roleplay if there is no some stucking story)... and dialog-based as it is still probably the best way to serve the progressive revealing of a story...
- world based and by world I mean interacting in all ways (interacting events and so interacting quests but not only, interacting PCs/NPCs, interacting NPCs)... because you can't roleplay without knowing where you're roleplaying...
("where" in a real large meaning here, not just the geographical one)... and there i think dialog has to play a more important parts that it plays in more than one labelled RPG game...

i think it's enough to define RPGs in relationship and in opposition with action games and strategy games where story and even "world" may have a place but a not so important one...

well as minimal as it is it may already be hard to release...

How willing, do you think, would a gamer be to learn a whole new "language" just to play a game? Unless such a "language" has practical uses in activities other than gaming, I find the prospect of anyone having the dedication to familiarize themselves with such a system of communication highly dubious.

Winterfox, who said anything about learning an entire language based upon symbols? I suggested an update of Crawford's system, which used no more than 60 symbols, sounded reasonable. And judging from the number of people I've seen who can easily select the mage and cleric spells they want in BG2 based on nothing more than an icon, I would think this isn't too difficult a thing to bring about--given sufficient motivation, and a reasonable selection of symbols. As I mentioned above, we've already learned plenty from the Web and Windows. So universality isn't impossible.

Then it would mean BG&E is a true RPG. Nevertheless, there is no or numerical stats in BG&E. You can find small objects which increase the health/attack rate/give abilities to/of the member carrying them but that would be all.

I always thought of RPGs as games with a customizable character, a stat page and an inventory with a paper doll, so for me, BG&E is not trully a role-playing game. Nevertheless, it's fun, hilarious and addictive, with many innovative elements and genre crossovers. The characters are memorable, the story is good and the graphics are gorgeous.
That's what I wanted Anachronox to be; at least combat-wise.

at its barest minimum, a game that will let you do anything you want, be anyone you desire under the context of a good storyline, and yet still be able to finish the game without any hitches.

rpg's aren't dying; they will always have a niche market. if you have a good grip on the market, you'll always survive from a business standpoint, even if it's just a niche market and not a mass market.

however, i do believe that the rpg segment of the gaming market is in a dismal state presently. there are only a few good ones out there. and the ones that are good, come few and far in between. given the long gestation period of such games, it becomes more imperative that an rpg should deliver more than what it promised. it has to bring out the goodies that would compel people to buy and play it. and not just play it once, but play it with a passion. what do i mean by that?

any rpgamer will tell you that a good story is required for an immersive rpg. that is a given. i have to add that any developer should look beyond a compelling storyline. they have to come out with guns blazing, so to speak. the story/plot should be just a blueprint for a good game. it should just lay the foundation, as in building a house. the game must have cool items, ones that will make you drool over when you sleep at night. the game must have killer skills that a character can develop over the course of his life. skills that you would like to see over and over again in action as you replay the game because it gives you the feeling of being powerful, of being rewarded for having invested a lot of time (and money) into playing. the game must have interesting monsters, (not just the usual) opponents that you have to make the best use of your skills and the most out of your items to defeat. monsters/opponents that are difficult to beat, but not impossible, if you have developed the character. such will be the test of whether you've made a good character or not. let's face it, if you make a game too difficult or near impossible to beat, casual gamers will be turned off, i tell you. the difficulties of good rpg's level also as you progress in the story. meaning, it gets tougher as your level improves, and not inversely proportional, too hard at the beginning when you're just starting only to get easier in the end when you feel invincible. a good rpg must have a combat system that is manageable and not a chore to learn, yet able to hold the interest of the gamer.

of course, interesting dialogue options and outstanding music should be standards in a good rpg.

i've seen a lot of rpg's being advertised as having a good storyline, only to falter on the other aspects of the game.

i was not saying that stats are out of place in rpgs... (and i am not one of those who think that BD and other games are overstuffed with them...)

but i think stats and customizable hero are not something that you can find only in RPGs.. i would say it may be action oriented...
For one reason: stats are combats oriented...

i may be wrong but i can't remember any rpgs where stats were truly interfering with other aspects of the game...

for dialogue multiple options (and true options not 4=> i attack... 4=>i don't attack as i've seen it all too often), i wish them but i am really pessimistic about this issue for future...

well i think devs prefer binary trees...
others have a cost...

We'll take Arcanum:
Intelligence: Allows you to use a higher level of language. A low intelligence limits your answers to "Eh?", "Ooooh!" and "Me bash you".
Beauty: The people's initial reaction depends on your Beauty, reputation and alignement. With a high beauty, all people you meet will fall in love with you.
There are also the Persuation skill, just like in KotOR.

I think I would love to learn and to [b]use/b] a whole new language in a game !

But that's my own taste ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

The egyptians used symbold for sillables (right spelled ?) and for words as well. Even more, they could mix it ! Their language was a language that was / is a relative to arabic and hebraic (right spelled ?) languages; I don't remember the english word for this group of languages.

The Maya did the same witrh their "symbols" - and in a more "extreme" or "sophistoicated" way than the egyptions, because they mixed the symbols as well !

It sure seems like they are dying out, seems people are more focused on graphics and multiplayer *gags* than a true in depth ROLE PLAYING game. There doesn't seem to be anything out lately that isn't some hack n slash high graphics garbage.
I pretty much stick to actual DnD (with people at a table/dice/DM/etc) to have an actual role playing experience as I have noticed a huge decline in the roleplaying games out on the market and up coming ones as well. Seems only older games have true storylines anymore. I'm prbly not going to even purchase PC games anymore as hack n slash is really not of interest to me. *Shrugs* kinda sad our society is more interested in killing/3d shooters than a well written in depth roleplaying game, but what can you expect when most people don't even read books anymore. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />