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well, first i don't wish to open political polemics there just to clear up my view about the question...

7 or 8 years ago, i was interested with the first books of fantasy writer Terry Goodkind and with the beginning of The Sword of Truth series (maybe mainly because he was one of the very few "new" fantasy writers emerging, at least distributed in France, even if it was in US english)

well now just after reading the last serie opus of the serie (Naked Empire), i am wondering if fantasy is not a way to make bad propaganda and a making short of US neo-conservators views for him... (well not so short because independantly from this question each of his 4 last books could be better with 300 pages in less)

well there is this opposition between Old World/New World, this constant calling to ultra-individualism, this not really hidden call to the irak war and to a more bellicist role for the US in the world (war for democracy or "freedom" as he said, ok but what democracy? and war all the same) that is really close to some of the neo-cons view...

well i was surprised because his first novels were more liberal than neo conservator i think... it was even maybe a quite progressist view in fantasy writings(well some neo cons have liberal past but...!)... and from the other side he still seems to have "difficulty" with the bush administration but it seems to me just because it is not radical enough for him in a certain way and because as an ultra-individualist he still is opposed with Patriot Act II or some others bills like that...

well i may be wrong on all points but i will be interested in other readers view here...



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It's Political Correctness he objects to. I don't think he has much of a problem with anything else.

Pretty sure I read that somewhere on his Official Site a while back.


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i'm sure your right about political correctness , elliot...
but there are many ways to object to political correctness...
and neo conservatism is or was one of them in the beginning...
nevertheless it has other political implies and i would say that it is the same for goodkind's works...
well for his interviews (and his official site) i know some of them and i must say i never manage to find a very coherent line, except for ultra individualism and this confusing habit he has to send all those who aren't agreeing with him to hell (well it may be the internet dialog shape (form?))...
for the most it is more a "rather-this" view on a question and a "rather-that" view on another one... well that may be very sane...
but i still think that the works have turned in something really more dogmatic these last years... trouble is that i'm quite unsure about the dogma's nature yet!

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Its called "objectivism", not "neo-conservatism", and you can learn more here:

Ayn Rand

I believe there is also a link from the site Elliot mentioned.


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I have decided to stop reading the sword of truth after Faith of the Fallen (and reading on Amazon that his preaching gets even worse). It's not a Fantasy book anymore, it's a political manifesto. And Goodkind isn't even good in writing political stuff.
I don't mind a fantasy author's political direction, I wouldn't even mind, if his direction shined through here and there. But Goodkind is so in-the-face and lacking any subtlety that it's unbearable. I'd also dislike it if I actually agreed with his agenda. It's like he is writing: "The Imperial Order is Socialism. Socialism is evil! And now I'm gonna repeat this for the next three chapters, so that you really get it." And equally to the rising of his political writings in his books, the actual plot of the books decreased until it was little less than a boring and unbelievable masquerade for his agenda.
I think it really is a shame, for I hold Wizard's First Rule in the highest regard.


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objectivism instead of neoconservatism or objectivism instead of ultra-individualism?

ok, i'm not very familiar (that's the least i can say) with Ayn Rand works but for the little i may understand (sorry to say it but it is a really US thing... absolutly no offenses intented here! just meaning it is uneasy to understand for someone who has no US culture) originally objectivism has no proper political view, except for anticommunism (and i think more in a philosophical way than in a political way, well in a political way too, but to the extrem limit it is secondary)... true? well i may be badly wrong here...

neoconservatism as i've employed it may recover something more as a (more or less and more "less" than "more") unified political view...

hope the question is not just too stupid...

BTW Flash, you have a point here!!! but anyway i'm just trying to understand the exact implies of what i called bad propaganda because i don't think it is just Socialism Order that is in cause... and one more time the trouble is not wether i like his opinions or not (the answer is not, but it is really personnal and i don't ask to a writer or anyone else to share my political view!) but what they are...
well to be frank the only reason i continue to purchase his works has nothing to do with that... it is only because of the character of Cara the Mord Sith (Goodkind has still some humour when she handles things! well it is a bit repetitive and anyway too rare but...)

Last edited by MASTER_GUROTH; 31/08/04 11:38 AM.

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I think SoT is good as far as Blood Of The Fold then readable as far as Temple Of The Winds. After that, the least said the better.


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I think SoT is good as far as Blood Of The Fold then readable as far as Temple Of The Winds. After that, the least said the better.


Agreed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> (although there were portions of Faith of the Fallen that I really liked, especially the beginning)


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BTW Flash, you have a point here!!! but anyway i'm just trying to understand the exact implies of what i called bad propaganda because i don't think it is just Socialism Order that is in cause... and one more time the trouble is not wether i like his opinions or not (the answer is not, but it is really personnal and i don't ask to a writer or anyone else to share my political view!) but what they are...
well to be frank the only reason i continue to purchase his works has nothing to do with that... it is only because of the character of Cara the Mord Sith (Goodkind has still some humour when she handles things! well it is a bit repetitive and anyway too rare but...)


I understand and agree with you. The Socialism part was just an example for his in-the-face style, which does also apply to his other propaganda. And I also do not ask of an author to share my opinions. In contrast, I even find it interesting if I cannot wholeheartedly agree with postions in books. For example the no-mercy-attitude Richards and Kahlan develop in the later books is something I don't agree with, but it is understandable why the develop this attitude in the situation they are in, and it is therefore something that fits believably into the story.

And I agree with Elliot on the classifications of the books.


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The worst thing to me is that Goodkind has entirely destroyed the credibility of his Imperial Order as a functional society by tacking a Politically Correct ethos onto the back end.

The Imperial Order were basically a rapacious, merciless and blood hungry group who placed the value of a human life somewhat lower than that of a sharp knife and well below that of a good horse.

Whatever one may think of Political Correctness as a doctrine, there is just no way of merging it with Imperial Order philosophy in any way that makes sense, and Goodkind has utterly failed to convince me in his novels that this can be done.

So for the sake of making political points he has sacrificed his entire story, which is just sad, IMO.


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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
please what is 'IMO' for... i mean what does it means? it's not the first time i've seen it but... i wouldn't like to die so ignorant!!! (not that i will die soon but...)

back to on topic:

Quote

Whatever one may think of Political Correctness as a doctrine, there is just no way of merging it with Imperial Order philosophy in any way that makes sense, and Goodkind has utterly failed to convince me in his novels that this can be done.


point granted!!! and i will say more: i think Political Correctness as Socialism as Islamic Republic (i mean in the end the Imperial Order is all that in the same thing) that Goodkind pretends to describe is just unreal... something that has just never existed

well, when he makes the apology of CIA in Pilar of Creation
(i quote from the dedicace to... "the people in the United States Intelligence Community who, for decades, have valiantly fought to preserve life and liberty, while being ridiculed, condemned, demonized and shackled [just 4 synonymous words to lecture us about the same thing but... ok, it's ok!!!] by the jackals of evil [nothing less than that!!!]")
it is the same
the idea of IS that Goodkind defends (tom and all those who have the knife...) just doesn't exist in real world!


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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
please what is 'IMO' for... i mean what does it means? it's not the first time i've seen it but... i wouldn't like to die so ignorant!!! (not that i will die soon but...)


IMO = In My Opinion

You can also say : IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

You have to learn a lot of canonical expressions for understanding the english forum language as BTW or ROFL or WTF <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

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Quote

Whatever one may think of Political Correctness as a doctrine, there is just no way of merging it with Imperial Order philosophy in any way that makes sense, and Goodkind has utterly failed to convince me in his novels that this can be done.


point granted!!! and i will say more: i think Political Correctness as Socialism as Islamic Republic (i mean in the end the Imperial Order is all that in the same thing) that Goodkind pretends to describe is just unreal... something that has just never existed

well, when he makes the apology of CIA in Pilar of Creation
(i quote from the dedicace to... "the people in the United States Intelligence Community who, for decades, have valiantly fought to preserve life and liberty, while being ridiculed, condemned, demonized and shackled [just 4 synonymous words to lecture us about the same thing but... ok, it's ok!!!] by the jackals of evil [nothing less than that!!!]")
it is the same
the idea of IS that Goodkind defends (tom and all those who have the knife...) just doesn't exist in real world!


Societies that DO not exist I can live with. There are plenty of tose in fantasy. Societies that COULD not exist are something else again. They always annoy the heck out of me.


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you're just far better than I for expressing what I mean, elliot...

well it may be really hard to be coherent and to describe a possible world when you are confusing all what you hate in the same so called evil thing...


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hello again, barta...
and anyway thanks for the info
BTW: i won't write in french here, bad english is better!


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well it may be really hard to be coherent and to describe a possible world when you are confusing all what you hate in the same so called evil thing...


Virtually impossible in fact, yes. You would need a number of societies each with a predominant 'evil' trait, or at least only combine those that genuinely co-existed in real life, or could do so comfortably.

I think Goodkind needs to read George Orwell's 1984 which is really where Political Correctness was first conceived. Orwell's society works, but it bears no resemblance at all to the Imperial Order.


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