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#282646 22/12/04 10:38 AM
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... (at least) twice as famous as warcraft or doom. It's definately better than them.

I tried to find out such a topic, but there are so many topics here... My patience got the better of me. If it has been explored just post a link (without getting angry). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Hail Divinity!
#282647 22/12/04 01:56 PM
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Because it's an RPG, and pepole don't have enought paicence/brain to play RPG's.

Übereil


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#282648 23/12/04 04:43 AM
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That was a simple answer. Maybe it was the right answer too. Warcraft is something like halfway between AOM and an RPG. Very few know about Avernum too.

True you require some patience (for brains - you can always download some walkthroughs - if you wish), but when you complete a quest you congratulate yourself. Don't you?

There is something about the endgame too. I didn't like the endgame. Maybe because the wastelands lack the greenary so much.


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#282649 23/12/04 09:14 AM
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I found the end to be a little.. I don't know... empty. Not very rewarding...

For WC3, it was acually marketed as the first RPG/AOM (whatever it stands for...). Don't know if there was much RPG though, it was just too linear. Great game though, a pity it didn't work well with my computer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />.

As for walkthroughs: I used to use walkthroughs when I was younger... Lack of patience/englishknowledge I think... I've tried to stop now though, unless I'm completelly stuck (I managed REALLY good in Arcanum, until I got to the impossible swordquest in Caladon (I think it is). Here you are supposed to find a sword for the head of the church. The sword has been in his family for a long time. You doesn't really get any clues, but you should GUESS that it has something to do with the rockformation in a smalltown close to Caladon. And after reading another rock full of writtings like: SW300steps you should realize that you should go far as hell to the left of that rockformation to find a small (hidden) cave, where the sword is... Easy, right? Unfortunantlley, I saw that I had missed a coupple of things, so I started againg with PURE walkthroughplay...).

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#282650 23/12/04 11:53 AM
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For WC3, it was acually marketed as the first RPG/AOM (whatever it stands for...).

Ubereil


AOM stands for age of mythology, a famous microsoft strategy game.

and what is this sword you are talking about? is it in DD?

About the endgame - Yah exactly - its not rewarding. Also the unreachable areas in the darkforest should have been more rewarding. Maybe the darkforest should have been a little larger and little thicker (the whole game is already very dark).


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#282651 23/12/04 03:02 PM
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Arcanum! The swordquest was in Arcanum!

And about the game: they should have made it bigger. There are only one real city, and that's Verdistis. Say whatever you whant about world map traveling, but it makes it easier for the developer to add more encounters, towns etc.

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#282652 23/12/04 09:21 PM
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Being famous has always two sides : You are well known, but on the other hand many, many, many people want to get to know you ... I'm not sure whether this Forum could stand the massive amount of so many people ...

A medal has always two sides ...


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#282653 25/12/04 01:35 AM
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Divine Diviniy is a actually great game but I don't think it's better than Doom which was a revolution itself in that time...

#282654 25/12/04 05:13 PM
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better than Doom for sure....two different types of games there...... but thats just me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />


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#282655 27/12/04 10:53 PM
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I didnt like the wastelands and the endgame becuase its far too much like diablo...its too much hack/slash but then again i suppose it had to have been done becuase you are in enemy territory and so the features such as reputation...combining objects...which was fun and made divinity <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> could not be used often.

#282656 28/12/04 02:24 PM
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I enjoyed the separations of the two Pre and Post/Wasteland Divinity Worlds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

It was almost exact in every respect to the Stephan R. Donaldson Book series “The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, White Gold Wielder”.

The first 3 books were set in a lush green world filed with majestic magic and beauty.
The second 3 books were of that same world; however, they were nothing, but barren Desert Wastelands and the magic became perverse.


Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


#282657 28/12/04 08:22 PM
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hey! i read those books, quite some time ago...like 1986... good books they were! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

missed the second three tho..... Hmmm, perverse magic eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> oh the wheels are turning..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />


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#282658 29/12/04 02:18 AM
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Why is DD not...

... (at least) twice as famous as warcraft or doom. It's definately better than them.

I tried to find out such a topic, but there are so many topics here... My patience got the better of me. If it has been explored just post a link (without getting angry). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Well, PC Gaming is just starting to get its major European and oversea flow of PC games in the USA. Great PC games from overseas, outside of the USA, are finally getting some attention from gamers, game publishers, media outlets that covers game, and reviewers alike -- like Gothic series, Arx Fatalis, Far Cry, Syberia series, The Longest Journey, Max Payne series, Hitman series, etc etc. Companies like Digital Illusions (they made Battlefield 1942 + expansions & BF: Vietnam) and Io Interactive are just starting to become household names here in the USA.

Blizzard is so well known and been around for quite the while, so I don't even know where to begin. Their reputation stems back to the original Warcraft, which was quite the WHILE ago. Like Id Software, they've been around for -- well, it feels like forever. And what Blizzard does, they do well. Their gaming back catalogue: Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Diablo + expansion, Diablo 2 + expansion, Starcraft + expansion, & now you can add World of Warcraft to the list.

I will be honest with you: I am NOT a big fan of Blizzard games. I am not a big RTS fan, either. I did not like Warcraft 2 very much when I played it. I was NOT a big fan of their Warcraft 3 demo -- so, I never bought WC3. I was NOT impressed w/ Diablo 1's SP component, though I thought at that time that their MP was quite good. I am NOT a Blizzard fan, but their production values are quite awesome for their games when compared to most PC companies arround.

I don't think the USA has completely latched onto Larian yet. Divine Divinity was a great start, from what I've heard from most people I know that have played it over here in the USA (by word of mouth) and all the critical acclaim it received. BD didn't really get the critical acclaim and have the word of mouth that DD did -- which is kind of shocking to me, as BD came out in a year that was completely lacking w/ PC RPG's! I'm surprised BD didn't even, at the worst, get a runner-up award from IGN to IGN's PC RPG Winner from IGN, which was Vampire: Bloodlines. When IGN gave out their award winners and did even mention a runner-up for PC RPG, I was shaking my head. I knew it was a slow year for PC RPG's, but it seems like they forgot BD -- which they gave an 8.0. It should add that the reviewer did say he would've given BD a 90%, if the game was more balanced.

IGN Review:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/512/512079p1.html

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[i]From IGN's review on page 4 at:
]http://pc.ign.com/articles/512/512079p4.html[/i]

Closing Comments

I gave warning that we'd wrack up coverage of an impressive series of flaws while reviewing Beyond Divinity; and so we have. But at the same time, most of them can be fixed or tweaked. Given Larian's record in this respect with Divine Divinity, I would expect the game to be pretty airtight in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, the results are certainly highly playable and extremely enjoyable with reservations noted. This is an entertaining and challenging RPG, with less of an emphasis on finger-twitching than thought. I'm willing to cut any developer some slack if they try to do more than clone than previous product. Larian has clearly gone a lot farther. If the game balance had matched the creativity and attention to overall design put into this title, I would probably have given it a 90%, because the detail of construction and depth of the environment are truly excellent. But with this many unresolved issues, Beyond Divinity gets an 80%. That's still a strong endorsement and hopefully a prod in the fundament to companies that think bugs are an insect gamers pay you to spray.


I think w/ us knowing already that the next Divinity game will have a fully 3D engine and that it likely will be titled the official sequel to DD, gamers might really look forward to DD2. I'm sure a lot of gamers, DD fans and non DD fans, will take notice to DD2 b/c the series is moving to a fully 3D universe.



Last edited by MysterD; 29/12/04 02:28 AM.
#282659 29/12/04 01:21 PM
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Here is what I have felt after playing games like DD, Warcraft and Doom:
We play these games for very long hours at a stretch. I don't understand that why the hell are these games made so dark then. 'Dark' in the sense that you can feel a strange sort of strain in the mind when you play them for a while (especially when you are a game tester). This is NOT the case with Avernum, but Avernum3's graphics were never so advanced. There is some psychology involved in this graphics that should be taken care of. DD was brighter than BD. I think that larian guys have intentionally made BD darker so that its closer to Warcraft (or something) in looks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />
One more thing:
I think that end game should be more *rewarding* than what was there in DD. I actually waited for something 'more' to happen while the cast of the game was playing after the endgame. I finished 'conquer the world campaign' in rise of nations today. I felt that vanquishing England was more *rewarding* than the endgame of conquer the world campaign. I don't think that the "always leave them wanting for more" rule applies here.

@MysterD
That sounded like a very diplomatic review form IGN <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />


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#282660 29/12/04 04:59 PM
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@MysterD
That sounded like a very diplomatic review form IGN <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

I thought IGN gave Divine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> (they gave that an 8.5) and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> a great review. 8.0 is a good score, last time I checked for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" />. The IGN review is the one reviews that truly got me interested to come to Larian's site and find out more. Then, I found these forums and decided to find out MORE on this game from fans of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" />, actually. (Now I just need to find somewhere local that has it to actually buy it!)

Also have to remember, the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> game is probably much better now w/ the latest patch behind it (Version 1.47) than it was when IGN first reviewed the game when it was a new release (Version 1.0) -- this game, from most reviews I read when <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> came out, basically said the game was very good, but plagued w/ bugs. From what I've seen w/ how Larian supports their games w/ patches, they really do quite a lot of bug-squashing in their patches.

I'm sure the same is true w/ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />D:, as well -- it's probably a lot better w/ patches behind it and all.

Last edited by MysterD; 29/12/04 08:55 PM.
#282661 30/12/04 03:11 PM
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I think that end game should be more *rewarding* than what was there in DD. I actually waited for something 'more' to happen while the cast of the game was playing after the endgame. I don't think that the "always leave them wanting for more" rule applies here.

Wallace


@ Wallace =>

You have to keep in mind the ending was as it was; because, it made the perfect jumping point to continue into BD and then DD2. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Read the pdf story on your DD disc and if you have BD read the story book.


Kyra_Ny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


#282662 01/01/05 03:43 PM
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Well, PC Gaming is just starting to get its major European and oversea flow of PC games in the USA.


I've once written somewhere here some very bitter postings featuring my own opinion.

To be found here , here , here , and here.

To cut it short, european gamers are - at least in my own opinion - treated as second or third class gmes - comparing o the U.S. . What I've noticed is a bias towards U.S. gamers - I put it into a sheme called "bigger, better, first".

It just happens that patches for european gamers take unbelievable incredibly long to make, boxes for U.S. gamers contain goodies, whereas in european games things are simply cut down (D&D rules completely missing in Baldur's Gate handbook), and games are generally published in the U.S. first (for example Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic, being developed by a Dutch company, but published in the U.S. by Take2 first of all).

The list goes on and on, and I can only hope that this bias vanishes one day.

If you really want to see what I think about it, you should read those articles.


Back to topic : The reason why <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> or <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is not so famous is to a part to be sought in the "Action" fashion that's currently around. Action-based games are overwhelming the whole markets, and everything needing to use the brain is dying out, zynical speaking.

On the other hand ... a few more Adventures have risen from the Sea of Darkness lately ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Alrik.

Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 01/01/05 03:45 PM.

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#282663 01/01/05 06:21 PM
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It just happens that patches for european gamers take unbelievable incredibly long to make, boxes for U.S. gamers contain goodies, whereas in european games things are simply cut down (D&D rules completely missing in Baldur's Gate handbook), and games are generally published in the U.S. first (for example Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic, being developed by a Dutch company, but published in the U.S. by Take2 first of all).


That really bites that certain things are CUT Down or removed entirely for Euro versions of USA games.

For an example of bad publishing, let's take Atari's publishing w/ Gothic 2. The USA has YET to receive a version of Gothic 2's Expansion -- Gothic 2: Night of The Raven. And it aggrevates me to see Atari not publish one b/c the game, unfortunately, did NOT sell well in the USA! I would have no problem w/ taking that expansion game in its original foreign AUDIO language, as long as they provide me some English subtitles, if they have to. Or if they think the English translation of Audio would take too long to produce. That would be fine w/ me!

I'm glad there were fans of Gothic 2: NOTR Expansion that translated that actual addition to the game from German to English, thanks to Piranha releasing a SDK for the German version -- though, it is a hop, skip and jump to try and get to run, it's available.

I turn on subtitles for DVD movies that are foreign films -- I'd rather hear a movie spoken in its original language and w/ sub-titles in a language I understand b/c a lot is often lost in translation when dubbing is used in movies. AUDIO acting sounds best in their language. You know, I thought it was quite sad when I heard many people went to go see the movie Hero in the USA, yet walked out once they heard or saw that it was not dubbed, but it was in English sub-titles. Yeah, yet people loved The Last Samurai, in which a great majority of the film had English sub-titles, since the AUDIO for the most part wasn't in English.

Another thing that bugs me in gaming: poor voice acting b/c the game is translated from one language to another. Why is poor voice acting hired often for foreign games, when translating a game? Well, we know why -- to save $, obviously. But if they are going to hire cheap voice acting, I think they just should forget that idea -- keep the game's AUDIO in its original language and give the player the option to be able to put English subtitles on.

Maybe Gothic 2 would've sold better if Atari, the publisher, marketed the game BETTER than they actually did.


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The list goes on and on, and I can only hope that this bias vanishes one day.

If you really want to see what I think about it, you should read those articles.

I've played a bunch of foreign games and there are definitely lots of good ones.


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Back to topic : The reason why <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> or <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is not so famous is to a part to be sought in the "Action" fashion that's currently around. Action-based games are overwhelming the whole markets, and everything needing to use the brain is dying out, zynical speaking.

Well, I think there are a lot of popular RPG's on the market.

SW:KOTOR series (console and PC), BG series for PC, FF on consoles, Vampire: Bloodlines, etc etc. But, I do get what you mean: action is the most popular and biggest selling genre.

I don't know, but <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> series needs more attention over here. It's not easy to find a copy of either games over here in my part of the USA here, currently.

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On the other hand ... a few more Adventures have risen from the Sea of Darkness lately ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Alrik.

The USA really doesn't make any pure adventures anymore, unfortunately -- there's very few. Basically, Myst seems to be the big American one. I wish there more. Actually, I wish there more emphasis on companies developing non-linear adventures, but that really is for another thread.

I'm glad to see foreign companies making adventures; I don't want to see the genre die, And indeed, they've made some great ones. The Longest Journey & Shadow of Destiny come to mind.

#282664 01/01/05 08:28 PM
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For an example of bad publishing, let's take Atari's publishing w/ Gothic 2. The USA has YET to receive a version of Gothic 2's Expansion -- Gothic 2: Night of The Raven. And it aggrevates me to see Atari not publish one b/c the game, unfortunately, did NOT sell well in the USA! I would have no problem w/ taking that expansion game in its original foreign AUDIO language, as long as they provide me some English subtitles, if they have to. Or if they think the English translation of Audio would take too long to produce. That would be fine w/ me!


- <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> in the German version has no voicactiing at all ... most probably "to expensive" for Ubi Soft, who at the same time supported Far Cry *very* much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

- The "Deluxe" version of NWN has NO Patches at all ! - says an editor of a local gaming magazine.

Indeed, Atari seems to be a bad publisher, taking from everything I've heard.

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Another thing that bugs me in gaming: poor voice acting b/c the game is translated from one language to another. Why is poor voice acting hired often for foreign games, when translating a game? Well, we know why -- to save $, obviously. But if they are going to hire cheap voice acting, I think they just should forget that idea -- keep the game's AUDIO in its original language and give the player the option to be able to put English subtitles on.


I've written several times of the voices of the skeletons heard when in "Crusader of Might & Magic" the actual "Crusader" attacks them - they sound rather like a bunch of teenies exposed to their greatest idol ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I almost fell from my chair, laughing.

Games are often produced in English first (not forst [nice typo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> ] ) - due to the "big market", which is english-language. Games are often translated later into other languages, it seems to me.


Quote
Maybe Gothic 2 would've sold better if Atari, the publisher, marketed the game BETTER than they actually did.


I see this often with highly underrated games - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> in Germany, for example.


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 01/01/05 08:33 PM.

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#282665 01/01/05 09:53 PM
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For an example of bad publishing, let's take Atari's publishing w/ Gothic 2. The USA has YET to receive a version of Gothic 2's Expansion -- Gothic 2: Night of The Raven. And it aggrevates me to see Atari not publish one b/c the game, unfortunately, did NOT sell well in the USA! I would have no problem w/ taking that expansion game in its original foreign AUDIO language, as long as they provide me some English subtitles, if they have to. Or if they think the English translation of Audio would take too long to produce. That would be fine w/ me!


- <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> in the German version has no voicactiing at all ... most probably "to expensive" for Ubi Soft, who at the same time supported Far Cry *very* much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Sounds more like Ubi didn't want to invest in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" />. That's "bleh", considering how the USA version has voice-acting.

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- The "Deluxe" version of NWN has NO Patches at all ! - says an editor of a local gaming magazine.

Ick!

My version of NWN w/ all the expansions (SOU and HOTU), is updated to English Version 1.65, the newest edition.

Gothic 1 for PC, published by Xicat, had no patches. But, the game was already out overseas for a while and was all patched up. So, they translated that. So, that's fine.

Gothic 2 for the PC, USA Version, had NO patches. Well, that's probably b/c the game was already patched-up when it came here, since NOTR Expansion was out in Germany by then. They began stopping the patching of the original version of G2, once they began only patching the version w/ the expansion -- that's fine. Then, they released an SDK for that game -- in which you need the expansion to run the SDK. Oh, and SDK is in all-German, too.

I guess Atari saw no reason to bring NOTR Expansion over here, since the sales for G2 it weren't so hot. So, USA'll never really get that SDK translated, either (unless a fan translates it, like the G2 Expansion was done w/ a modkit). Only place I could really get it is from Ebay (there's got to be better alternative than that) or Pirahna Bytes -- and I really don't even want to even think about how much the Int'l shipping would cost me.

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Indeed, Atari seems to be a bad publisher, taking from everything I've heard.

Ooooh -- another Atari annoyance: games w/ multiple game CD's coming in sleeves instead of jewel cases. They were one of the first companies I saw doing that.

Atari doesn't drive me as nuts as EA does -- not yet, anyways. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Quote
Another thing that bugs me in gaming: poor voice acting b/c the game is translated from one language to another. Why is poor voice acting hired often for foreign games, when translating a game? Well, we know why -- to save $, obviously. But if they are going to hire cheap voice acting, I think they just should forget that idea -- keep the game's AUDIO in its original language and give the player the option to be able to put English subtitles on.


I've written several times of the voices of the skeletons heard when in "Crusader of Might & Magic" the actual "Crusader" attacks them - they sound rather like a bunch of teenies exposed to their greatest idol ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I almost fell from my chair, laughing.

This is what I'm talking about.
*shakes my head*

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Games are often produced in English first (not forst [nice typo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> ] ) - due to the "big market", which is english-language. Games are often translated later into other languages, it seems to me.

I would probably agree w/ this. PC Market is huge over here.

Everytime I look, I see more PC game developers emerging from overseas. I like this thought.

Overseas have always had lots of games for their console, but they really are starting to come out w/ them PC games.

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Quote
Maybe Gothic 2 would've sold better if Atari, the publisher, marketed the game BETTER than they actually did.


I see this often with highly underrated games - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> in Germany, for example.

[/quote]
Now this seems quite odd to me -- especially since the English version of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has voice-acting! In my eyes, the lazy thing for the publisher to do would be to keep the English voice-acting in the game -- or whatever AUDIO versions exist, use the best one. Then the company could make subtitles in other languages like German, English, French, etc.

I think movies come out best in their original language for audio. Usually, it's the most effective b/c the company will invest on the best actors for their own language for acting.

I think the same applies to games & voice acting. But, gaming doesn't have live footage often, so there's an advantage here -- unless the movie is CGI generated or a cartoon. For a game, you could pay any old good voice actor who doesn't actually look like the character, but could do the voice for the role well. It's all about the voice fitting the role there. See GTA: Vice City -- Ray Liotta don't look like Tommy Vicetti, but he can play that role great.

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