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#284821 06/01/05 10:39 PM
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I'm asking what is cheating?

I've seen a report on blackjackplayers that use a system of counting cards to make millions, but the casino cals it cheating.

Now I think this is not cheating. Cheating is when you have information that other players don't have (x-ray glasses). But with theire system they just used the information given to em, any player has the same information only it's processed in an other way.

Now if i convert this to PC cheating:

Cheating is if you use a program thats enables you to alter information.
But this is not cheating, exploiting a bug (endless crystal in crystal bag) since every player can do it and it's in the rules of the game as given by the developers so this is exploiting a weakness but not cheating agreed?

Is this a good assumption?


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Morbo #284822 06/01/05 11:18 PM
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In Diablo 2, is maphack cheating? Everyone benefits from it...

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if the software delivered by the developer allows this it's not cheating it's just using code that already in the game (no 3rd party program is needed) it's an exploit and the developers should fix it in a patch but its not cheating.


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Morbo #284824 07/01/05 01:06 AM
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In my opinion, cheating is "breaking the rules". The rules must be agreed upon by all players. A maphack is cheating unless all players agree to it. Ability hacking is cheating, unless all players agree to it. Sleeping with someone other than your partner is cheating, unless all three people agree to it. On any massive-multiplayer game, any modification is cheating unless they are listed in the game description.

It all depends on who writes the rules. If everyone wants to change the rules, so be it, but if only one or a few change or break the rules, that is cheating against the others. Also, different rule sets must remain separate forever. Just because your character got +138 Plate Armour without breaking rules in that game, doesn't mean you can legally shift them into a game with different rules where that couldn't happen.

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So in your opinion is the sytem those students used cheating? They followed the rules of the game and were just stopped because they were winning to much and the casino disn't want to play any more.

also doe you consider the portable bed a cheat?


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Morbo #284826 07/01/05 11:11 AM
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That's really weird. In my philosophy, counting cards and remembering what card has already passed by are part of the gameplay when playing a cardgame! I mean, how else are you gonna play whist, for instance?


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basicly this was the stategy:

Blackjeck => you can stop at any time but the dealer has to go to 17 before he can quit.

So if the dealer has 16 he has to take an other card. Now if you know that the previous hand a lot of small cards were taken out of the game you know the chance is greater that the dealer would get a high card so you stop early because of that and let the dealer go bust.

Theire strategy:

2-6= +1
7-9=0
A-K-Q-J-10= -1

Now you ony have to remember 1 number and add or subtract from it. You start with 0. if the number gets positive the chances are greater that the dealer would hit a hight card and go bust.

Example
You see the following cards pass: Q-5-K-4-9 == -1+1-1+1+0 = 0 now if you play long enough you have a statitical number that when positive the odds of the dealer going bust are higher an negative the odds of the dealer staying under 21 is greater.

Finally the casino kicked every player out they suspected of card counting. (they identified em with the geekisch looks and the concentration it takes to follow the cards and calculate the number (you can't start talking to your neighbor or you'll lose track))


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That's really weird. In my philosophy, counting cards and remembering what card has already passed by are part of the gameplay when playing a cardgame! I mean, how else are you gonna play whist, for instance?


It is at least for those cheating who don't have such a strong memory.

I don't think I would be able to do that - depending on the type of card game.


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I don't think that's cheating. They are just using information that is there for everyone. But that's not really a game, is it? Rather hard work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

I usually don't exploit bugs in a game, since I always play single player games. I feel this is cheating in a way as it is just a mistake the programmers made. It's not in the sense of the game and it would destroy the atmosphere.

My morale in this matter is a bit strange though. So what I sometimes do is use a cheat to achieve something which I feel I deserve but can't get in an honest way. As an example in Gothic I inserted one of the swords which I had found but somehow lost. When I couldn't find it I cheated instead of reloading and replaying some hours.


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Cheating is when an action performed by a person is illegal and can be proved, or is obvious. Counting cards can't be proved EVER, since it's in the persons head and is just chance and statistics. Using a maphack can be proved as the software can be located on the cheaters PC.

But casino's, gameservers are property from a peron/firm. They can set the rules as they wish and interpret them as they wish. If a casino decides to remove a player, they can for any reason. In fact I believe every gambler should be pointed on that fact.

Online games cheating? if the admin decides he's cheating, then the admin can do what he wants as it's his server, if Blizzard decides any external programs or bug exploits used to cheat is cheating, it's their right to deny you to play the game, on their servers. (battlenet)


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Online games cheating? if the admin decides he's cheating, then the admin can do what he wants as it's his server, if Blizzard decides any external programs or bug exploits used to cheat is cheating, it's their right to deny you to play the game, on their servers. (battlenet)

Yep but there are still too much online gamers who are cheating on the Blizzard Battlenet.

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Yup. I think most of the dupers start out by using the 'harmless' maphack.

Which isn't harmless. PK'ers track down their targets that way. People can see the gear you're wearing. Is that good? I haven't been hacked yet thankfully.

Oh yeah, and if you DL maphack from the wrong site you'll probably get a free keystroke logger so some bugger can hijack your account. That's always fun... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mostly, I think cheating is just lame. If you want to do it just do it single-player but even then its still stupid as you should beat the game properly or if you've done it over and over play something else.

I'd never dream of cheating online as it:

a) affects other players, usually detrimentally
b) will get you banned

Also hackers and cheaters are the reason why Diablo 1 is unplayable online and you have to pay to play WoW. Oh well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Cheating in real life is even worse. We all hear the amazing stories of card counters who fleeced millions out of a string of Vagas casinos but you never hear about the ones who are buried out in the desert do ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


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Yeah, cheating multiplayer sucks (playing CS when someone's useing all the hax IS useless since yoiu can't do ANYTHING).

But if you whant to do it singleplayer, then shure, go ahead. And if it makes the game funnier to play, I can't really see any harm in it.

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Cheating against the computer i dont mind.... cheating against another human (or living organism, since i feel half the "people" on this planet cant be human <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) is just a sign of your unworthyness....

THe only cheating i do is at jugsaw puzzles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (that i do professionally)


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Some of you have a misconception. I'm not talking af entering cheat code or programs. But exploits

For instance if you notice int the gam MMORPG or RPG a that you can duplicate items by usind a bug in the game (not changin files of the game) now thats an exploit that you can take advantage of and you can't call it cheating because you follow the "bad" rules of the game as written by the programmers.

(remembers IIS from Microsoft) Professor found a bug that allowed the surfer to enter the server just by entering it in a browser. He mailed it to microsoft with code to exploit it included. He mailed 10 time and waited 6 months. No word from microsoft. Then he placed it on the internet en it was one of th most used hack-trick.





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Morbo #284836 07/01/05 07:20 PM
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In that case, it would be Microsoft's fault, imho. He mailed it to them, but if there is no reaction, then it's their fault, imho.

But before putting it on a web-site, I would've mailed it to a *serious* magazine or to BugTraq or so, just to make sure the security-related persons get it first.


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I've used the 'marrowalk bug' for quite a while now in D2.

I call it a 'feature'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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What bug? Since I'm gonna start again...

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There's no advantage in calling poeple cheaters, most won't mind and just target you (more)... get proof (screenshots etc..), and warn the admins, case closed imo.

Besides you can't complain about CS and Battlenet anymore, accounts get banned, anti-cheats aren't all that bad.


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What bug? Since I'm gonna start again...

Übereil


There's a bug with the elete boots 'marrowalk' which allowed the necromancer to get a free 33 point synergy to bone spear, bone spirit, teeth etc. Any item with 'charges' of a spell on it (in this case lvl 33 bone prison) will act as if the points have actually been put into that skill as far as the synergies are concerned. In this case 33 points!

As you can imagine the bonus damage is very good. (about a 2000pt increase in bone spear damage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

Marrowalks are very difficult to obtain though... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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