Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) Johannus Paulus II

come on now, Lews. u're too young to be cynical so please let us old foggies be the cynics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> be the youthful U. be more forgiving. everyone lets their steam off. everyone has bad days. everyone has sensitive spots where if u poke at them, it hurts so much.

life is not without pain. & pain is not without lesson. so take the time to learn.

wow, this beard sometimes amazes himself with such words! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

Thats good and right.
I read the Discussion here very interested, becouse the meaning and the knowing about the Nazi Time in Germany from People who are not living in Germany are sometime very interesting.

Yep, it is not the Pope who will interest me, not the old, not the new <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
thats the reason for me only to read.

But now there is a thing i like to say.
And before i do that, i like to say to Setharmon that this will not having something to do with the Fact that you bring here, that the new Pope was a Member of the Hilter Youth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"] Hans Scholl, one of the leading figures of the Anti-Nazi resistance movement White Rose (Weiße Rose), also became a member of the Hitler Youth.[/color]

Source

My reason to write this, are the different Posting here which will mention that "thousand of Thousand" of People are not in the Hitler Youth.
This is not correct. But this is not so importand becouse the Members of the Hitler Youth are very young, and they came (in the later Years of the Nazi Regime) not from a free life in this Organization. There was an Organization called "Deutsches Jungvolk" which will do the indoctrination for the younger Kids.

Here an other Quote from this Wikipedia Site



Thats the facts. All youth, in this Time, have to be a Member. But they are children, or not much older than children. So i dont see a reason too "forgive" something, becouse the Children not guilty for anything.
The adults in this Time are the guiltys.
And the adults in this time do Hilter elected in a regular Voting. That is the importand thing which we have to remember and never forget.
And, we all knows this, the most germans in this time were not a kind of children eating Monsters. They were normal people like you and me.
And so i think the same §hit can happen again if we start to relativate the effect of the Nazi Regime, and the Hitler Youth was an effect of this. If we say that the most Kids are not a member of this Organization, we can also say that the most Germans are not a Member of the NSDAP, and then we can say fine, this will never happens again, becouse there a only a little bunch of criminals and sicks who will brings this over Germany and the World.
And then, i fear, will it happen again.
So, please dont relativate this Time.

Indeed. Thanks to Flash and Stone for the amount of pertinant informations.

Can say the same. Espessially since it poitns out what I've been saying all thew time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

NOW is the discussion over?

Übereil

Maybe the discussion is over maybe not.
After the great History lesson from Stone it would be difficult to write something more interesting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



This discussion was not childish or stupid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
If someone do not agree with the post of somebody else, he/she has the right to give his/her own opinion.
BTW it's my own opinion.

Barta

I do not think that this Discussion was Childish or stupid.

Maybe there are some points which will in other Countrys than Germany not really good learnd in School, what i can understand, every Country has an own History which it be worth to learn.
And that the point why i find discussion like this really interesting. Not stupid or so.
And this is seriuos Stuff, and for this (we all know how hot this Theme can be in Discussions) i found the Discussion here very quiet, and carefull. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Its show the high discussion standard this Forum has reached with his Members.

So, why stop? Exact this is a Stuff which will be worth to discuss, becouse if we talk about it, we will never forget.
And, maybe, the Discussion is become to personal, so we are old, or wise enough to say it.
And then we can take a break, search other Sources to make our argument stronger, and come back, say sorry and go on.
Discussion like this can be hot, i do not think that this will be bad. If we help each other to hold it on the facts that no one here was live in this Time, no one is guilty or agree with the terrible thing wich will happen in this time. If we allways remember this, i think we can handle the stuff without getting to personal, but on a high interested, dedicated Level. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, if the Discussion stops here, i can say to all interest, take a look at Wikipedia. There is a lot of stuff of this Time, and its in a good form to give an overview and it will be objektiv. I think i can judge this, becouse i read many stuff there in german and in english.

I have been reading all over the net things
about Joseph Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI.

What saddens me is the fact that the good German people
are getting bashed for no reason at all other than stupid hatred
and the good people of the Catholic church, their religion
is getting hammered on; because, people are saying stupid things
like this pope is the false prophet predecessor to the antichrist.
Come on and get real.
This is just totally unfair, unjust, and unfounded accusations.

Like Stone said, in not so exact words.
Study and learn the truths.
Don't let hearsay be your guide.

I hope I made sense.
Tsel

Too late Jang. I just don't want all of ya' getting mad at each other.

forgive me if i sound rude or insensitive, but this nazi stigma on the german people are in some ways similar to the japanese & their WW2 past (so-called Asia Liberation).

there are still quite a few old people who have lived through the japanese occupation who are still hateful of japanese though many have already gotten over it & even enjoy japanese products. i am of the generation that is fortunate to not live through the tough times & to have the country built up so well by the older generations who are toughened by wars & strife.

i am very sure that most germans hate to be reminded of Hitler & his Nazi. just as most japanese of the older generation's atrocity during WW2. of course there are a few rotten ones who can easily ruin everything. my country does not lack in that department as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> we all have bad fruits. but do we keep focus on bad fruits while we have even more good fruits? so we keep our eyes on the white background & not the little black dot.

Stone, your wisdom shines. Flash too. & Lews, i know u meant well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

thanks to everyone for keeping the discussion in focus. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"] i am very sure that most germans hate to be reminded of Hitler & his Nazi. [/color]
It is not the fact of the pure reminding, it is more that so many things we say or do will be estimated on our History.
No one looks at the old Colonialcountrys, and there Crimes. No one see what happened with the Natives of Amerika (North and South).
Sure, this cannot be compared really. But at last the World still turn around, and things will changed.
The most People of this Time are dead, specially the Adults of this Time. What i want is not to forget. Only the criteria for evaluation of things we do in Germany today must be change.

This sound like our old discussion about America. It's the bad fruit that shows, not all the good fruit.

Übereil

Sadly you are correct to a degree.

American history is spotted with black dots on the white background.

True the American Indian has suffered greatly; because, of immigrants of all walks of life coming to America and causing suffering to the Indian.
Sadly, one American Indian tribe sold land, that was another tribes, to those immigrants.
During WWII the American government put American Japanese in POW camps just because they were Japanese.
The American Government turned away boat loads of Jews seeking asylum during WWII before America got directly involved in the war; which in turn certainly sent them all to their deaths.

Today, Nazism, (they call themselves White Power), is more of an issue and a problem here in America than anywhere else in the world today.

But as janggut has said, these are black dots on a white background.
If all we ever did was look at those black dots we would never see the good that can be found in each other.
If more people would communicate with each other
maybe something would actually get resolved and accomplished.
Instead people prefer to hang on to their hate by not communicating.

I am not Catholic, but I believe the Pope's of today do a lot of good for people in general.
True no one is perfect, but then again, who is.

Tsel

really i don't know... I think it is a bit early for judging (in a way or another) his pontificate, with no disrespect to anyone...

i will add something nethertheless (hoping it is not childish, nor insulting to anyone)

a couple of days ago a partial solving has been found for the divorcied-remarried in the church.

this solving was signed cardinal Josef Ratzinger (not yet Benedictus XVI when it was signed). it is really imperfect (because there are many cases which still are out), true, but it is more or less an advance in this matter anyway.

Shure, there are black dots on a white background (don't forget all the dictatorships USA has created and supported <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />), but be proud you wheren't a part of it, at least (there are probablly things in Swedish history too, though I havn't heard of them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).

Übereil

I am gonna try to bring a point accross in a fairly unusual way....

Who would you choose?

I'm absolutely sure that this is a misinformation. There was a rumor that originated from an italian newspaper, that Card. Ratzinger was working on a paper regarding remarried people, which was not finished, but I'm also almost sure that this was a false information also. Newspaper just like printing news without checking the facts first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Here is what Cardinal Ratzinger himself wrote on remarried couples some time ago, and I really don't think his first act as a pope would be comitting credibility harakiri.
In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ(5), the Church affirms that a new union cannot be recognised as valid if the preceding marriage was valid. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God's law. Consequently, they cannot receive Holy Communion as long as this situation persists(6).[...]
At the same time [the Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio] confirms and indicates the reasons for the constant and universal practice, "founded on Sacred Scripture, of not admitting the divorced and remarried to Holy Communion"(9). The structure of the Exhortation and the tenor of its words give clearly to understand that this practice, which is presented as binding, cannot be modified because of different situations.

Flash I'm sorry I don't think it would be hara kiri...

I think you understand french no?

" Là où une première union conjugale se trouve rompue depuis longtemps et d'une manière irréversible pour les deux parties : là où, en revanche, une seconde union contractée ultérieurement a fait ses preuves sur une période assez longue comme une réalité justifiable moralement et a été remplie d'un esprit de foi, spécialement aussi à propos de l'éducation des enfants, on devrait, en recourant à une procédure extra juridique et en vertu du témoignage du curé et de membres de la communauté paroissiale, permettre à ceux qui vivent ainsi dans une seconde union de recevoir la communion. Une telle réglementation me semble être justifiée au nom de la tradition ". Joseph Ratzinger, Zur Frage nach der Unauflöslichkeit der Ehe [=A propos de la question relative à l'indissolubilité du mariage], Editions Kösel, Munich, p. 52.

to all i'm sorry i can't translate that in english really... If someone can it would be interesting.

and yes it is still possible it is misinformation and if it is i apologize.

edit:

a translator gives that if it helps (not sure)

"There where a first conjugal union finds broken itself since a long time and in an irreversible way for the two parties: there where, on the other hand, a second union contracted later did its proofs on a period rather long as a reality justifiable morally and was filled with a faith spirit, specially also about the education of the children, one would have, while resorting to to a first rate lawful procedure Testimony of the priest and of members of the parochial community, allow those that live thus in a second union to receive the communion. Such a regulation seems me to be justified to the name of the tradition"

second edit: it is true that this text is older than the one you linked and quoted.

Yeah, thanks, now that you mention it, I remember that I read that text also, some time ago.
But I still think it would greatly threaten his credibility if he changedd the church laws now. The text you quoted was written in 1972, and reflects his personal opinion at that time. The text I quoted was from him as the Prefect of the Congregation of Faith, and if he writes as such things like "objectively contravenes god's law" and "which is presented as binding" I don't think he can change it later, because that would mean putting his personal opinion over Church teachings - and I think especially he would never do that.

First I confirm that I didn't find anything confirming what I announced above about a partial issue in the highest french catholic authorities' communicates... And so I apologize once more for relaying a bit too quickly misinformations.

Second: Flash, your argument is very strong for a general issue about remarried people. I think it is what is refererred to in the theologic text you quoted. But in the partial issue which is semmingly not existing it was not that, but it was limited to remarried people who had a a divorce pronounced in disfavor of the other member of their previous marriage, which is actually very restrictive. I think this is typically cases where a compromise between the views delivered by the two texts who aren't exactly contradictory but not in the same order (one is theologic, the other... moral? and yes i agree: for him the theologic aspect is probably much more important). That's whhy i thought a partial issue was plausible. Well all that is plausible is not true...