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Lowkey >

This is a discussion of referendums and what one has personally experienced first hand.
I was speaking about California in a brief sense there is absolutely no way possible to talk about everything involved in this thread.

Also, this makes the second time you have singled me out for an attack; why I do not know.

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Any kind of Referendum has in my opinion the positive and negative thing at the same time that it is closely related to the citizens living in a certain country.

Positive, because it is a perfomance of "public will".

Negative in the same sense, because the "public will" could also be manipulated by dictators (Nazi peroid).

The current political systems nowadays act like sort of HAL (Hardware abstraction layer) in modern operating systems : They provide close connection of the legislative and other parts of the state in itself to the "public" with at the same time dividing both so far that - hopingly - an ill-fated (aka manipulated) "public will" will directly go into the legislative and do what for example Nazis did.

So far, so good.

The problem is in my mind the "width" of the channel between elected representants of the state and the public. Microsoft had to invent a small driver layer to keep perfomance close enough to the hardware to make fast games possible. Directx is such a step into that direction, as far as I've understood it.

My own impression is that this channel is too "thick" in some cases, so that the public interest isn't taken to the legislative anymore, or only after passing through a big, big filter almost distorting everything.

The same structure that was erected as protection of the state can have the bad result of too much protection of the state.

I don't know how this might be solved, but at least I think that any kind of referendum is a way to "shorten" this channel.

Alrik.


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Tsel-
If this is about what you have experienced firsthand then I must assume you hold a job in the governors office, that you could have drawn a conclusion about Gray Davis being "gutless"?

My point is that you have probably NOT experienced that firsthand, that in fact like many voters you are making the decision to override people voted to represent you (and become "experts" and make good decisions) - yet with insufficient information the voters removed the governor from office early, rather than relying on the established mechanisms for doing so and not disrupting the government. This is a good illustration of the position I gave, so I thought I'd highlight it.

I am not aware of any time I have "attacked" "you". If you believe that then you've made some invalid assumptions, the first and foremost apparently being that a discussion thread ought not to have conflicting opinions or challenge ideas.

But lets stay on topic please, if you are taking anything I've said personally or directly (after all, this is a discussion thread, I don't assume that you personally believe any position you put forward for discussion, as it's irrelevant) in a hurtful way then I'll turn on my mail function here and you can address that with me directly.


-If I were a lemming, I think I would push the lemming in front of me off a cliff, because hey, what's funnier than a falling lemming?
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How fortunate the voters in California are to have you available, with your vast knowledge of economics, your personal knowledge of the former governor (rather than just hearing potentially misleading news reports), and your razor sharp logical mind which would never have you swayed by something so pedestrian as a lack of a genuinely informed opinion and an intimate knowledge of what is happening at the "higher" levels of power.

Naturally you shouldn't trust such a man, because after all, you decided he was gutless and spineless, based on your insider knowledge and consumate genius. Perhaps you should run for office, if you are not already in "power", with your psychic powers and towering intellect, the voters cannot help but benefit, no?


Erm... Maybe it's becasue I don't have valid insxider information, but this WAS an attack on Tsel. Or maybe it wasn't an attack on Tsel, but an attack on Tsel's interlect?

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California State Governor
Duties and Responsibilities

The supreme executive power of the State of California is vested in the Governor, whose duty it is to see that the law is faithfully executed. The Governor is elected by the people for up to two terms of four years.

No person is eligible for the office of Governor who is not 18 years of age, and who has not been a citizen of the United States and a resident of this state for five years immediately preceding his election.

The Governor is Commander in Chief of the militia of this state. He is the sole official organ of communication between the government of this state and the federal government and the other states of the United States.

He must supervise the official conduct of all executive and ministerial officers, and he must see that all offices are filled and their duties performed.

The Governor may appoint and fix the salaries of such assistants and other personnel as he deems necessary for the proper conduct of his office...The Governor normally appoints a member of his staff to serve as his legislative secretary whose primary function is to maintain liaison between the executive office and the Legislature.

The Governor's appoint power also extends over the significant areas of state government. First, the Governor has authority to fill vacancies in the judiciary (municipal, superior, appeals and Supreme courts) and to fill newly created judgeships. Second, the Governor has power to appoint a large number of positions throughout the executive department, subject to confirmation by the State Senate.

The Governor must communicate with the Legislature, during each calendar year, regarding the condition of the state and may make recommendations. The Governor must also submit an itemized budget to the Legislature within the first 10 days of each year.

The Governor may veto any bill passed by the Legislature and return it with his objections to the house of origin. He may also reduce or eliminate one or more items of appropriation while approving other portions of the bill.

In addition to his immediate staff, the Governor utilizes a cabinet, composed of the secretaries of the eight major state agencies (State and Consumer Services; Business, Transportation and Housing; Environmental Protection; Child Development and Education; Food and Agriculture, Health and Welfare; Resources; and, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency), the Director of Finance, and the Director of Industrial Relations.

This conglomerate serves as the Governor's chief policy advisory body and, in their individual capacities, implement and coordinate the Governor's policies throughout the state.

The cabinet supplies the Governor with a comprehensive view and current resume of the state operations and serves as a source for long-range planning.

California's Legislature


Davis could have waged war on the Energy Giants that were openly raping California due to monstrous loop holes they took advantage of, and he could have forced the energy plants to open, and then worked on the problem.
A California governor has that much power if they so choose to use it.

Like the old saying, one does not bail water from an over flowing bathtub while the water faucet is still on.

Even Davis, in hindsight, openly admitted this.

Yes, he has done a lot of good too, but he seriously failed in his second term in office.
He dropped the ball and out of fear he backed down from Energy Giants.
He is a great leader in peacful situations, but he caved when we needed a strong leader.

Tsel


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What I absolutely hate is when I write a long post and people do as if it doesn't exist ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

And, yes, sometimes I AM emotional.


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I read your text, Alrik, and would have reacted to it provided I'd have a point on it. So know that it was not ignored. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Unfortunately, I'm young and don't know enough about politic; I feel kind of helpless and lost towards the subject, wich is pretty hard, and even discouraging sometimes. But I'm there and I read and (try to) learn...

I can at least try to answer to the first point, though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
[color:"orange"] Describe the policy on referendums in your respective countries, if there is any. [/color]
Referendums in Canada (from the Canadian Encyclopedia):

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Referendums do not easily fit in with the traditions of British parliamentary practice and are inherently polarizing, even impassioning, processes and thus are risky undertakings for governments. However, for many observers a referendum is a useful and inherently democratic device that elicits from the electorate a precise answer to a specific question. Referendums have taken place since the 16th century in Switzerland. In France and other European countries the practice was used in the 18th century but did not spread widely until the second half of the 20th century. In Australia they are used for constitutional amendments, and some American state and local governments use them for policy and constitutional issues.

As the Canadian experience demonstrates, referendums and plebiscites may be constitutional or simply legislative, and they may be initiated either by the government or by the people. The latter take place at the local or provincial rather than national level. In Canada, the federal government has held 3 referendums (or, more strictly, plebiscites). The first was in 1898, on PROHIBITION, in which only 44% of the electorate voted, with 51% voting yes and 49% voting no. The second was in 1942, on conscription, in which the Liberal government of Mackenzie KING asked Canadians if they were in favour of releasing the government from its promise not to use conscripts for overseas military service. Over 60% of the voters replied yes; the others, no. In Québec, however, about 72-73% voted no.

A third referendum was held in 1992 on the Charlottetown Accord. During the negotiations leading to the accord, several provinces had made arrangements to put any new deal to a referendum. In Québec, the government had threatened to hold a referendum on sovereignty by October if an acceptable offer was not forthcoming from the rest of Canada. Thus the referendum had become a strategic tool in the negotiations. After a new agreement was reached by the First Ministers in September, PM Brian Mulroney announced that a national referendum would be held on October 26. Seventy-five percent of eligible voters went to the polls. The accord was rejected by 6 provinces (Nova Scotia, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Québec and Manitoba) and one territory (Yukon). The overall vote nationally was 44.8% for and 54.2% against.

In 1948, 2 important constitutional referendums in Newfoundland were held on the issue of union with Canada. The first failed to give an absolute majority to any of the 3 options: confederation with Canada, responsible government as it existed in 1933, or commission of government for 5 years. But a second vote, held a month later on July 2, resulted in a slim majority (52.3%) for confederation. A Newfoundland constitutional plebiscite was held in 1996 on the question of seeking an amendment altering denominational education rights. A majority voted yes.

All the provinces, with the exception of New Brunswick, have held nonconstitutional referendums, including dealing with such matters as the prohibition of liquor and related problems; switching to daylight-saving time; votes for women; public health; ownership of electric companies; grain marketing; and in January 1988 to determine if PEI should have a fixed link to the mainland. Since Confederation there have been more than 50 provincial referendums. Four provinces - British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba - have enacted statutes making popular initiative possible. A bill introducing popular initiative is being considered by the Ontario Legislature. Provincial referendums in Canada are traditionally consultative or advisory in nature (ie, plebiscites), although some have been treated as though they were binding by the governments that have called them.

The first Québec referendum (1980) on the sovereignty issue was held on 20 May 1980. 60% of the voters refused to give the Parti Québécois government a mandate to negotiate sovereingty-association. The second Québec Referendum (1995) was held on 30 October 1995 on a question which asked voters whether they agreed "that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership." The result was a narrow victory for the no side, 50.6% voting no and 49.4% voting yes. Ninety-four percent of the electorate voted.


Personally, I only knew the 1995 referendum on sovereignty. But I tend to feel that puting more referendums (the idea of a more direct democracy) might be a way to make the governments more accountable to the voters, and to make the people less excluded from the political systems.

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What I absolutely hate is when I write a long post and people do as if it doesn't exist ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

And, yes, sometimes I AM emotional.


Alrik - as I have said previously, the context or the conclusion in your posting is not always obvious to everybody at first glance.
So don't complain - this one is a masterpiece in that respect.


[color:"orange"] I'm young and don't know enough about politic; I feel kind of helpless and lost towards the subject, wich is pretty hard, and even discouraging sometimes [/color]

LaFille - if you feel lost towards the 'hard' subject, as I formulated, then I am sorry. Evoking such feelings was not my intention. If however your statement is to be read as 'the subject of politics is hard, because I'm young and inexperienced' - then that's exactly the right attitude! Not the ones having experience voting 12 times for the same party without further thinking, but those who are uncertain and think about their vote will be the catalysts to change.

That said - The meaty part is 3., as Lowkey said. 1. and 2. is to open the door of and to your minds.

I would really like to see views on -
What are the benefits of referendums?
What are dangers?
What should be topics, if any?

Or am I too strict? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />


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Alrik >

I read your post 3 times yesterday and each time I read it
I found it to be more enlightening, so what am I to post as a comment?

I guess I could post a well said. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

{The above was complements to you if you didn't catch that.} <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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LaFille - if you feel lost towards the 'hard' subject, as I formulated, then I am sorry. Evoking such feelings was not my intention. If however your statement is to be read as 'the subject of politics is hard, because I'm young and inexperienced' - then that's exactly the right attitude! Not the ones having experience voting 12 times for the same party without further thinking, but those who are uncertain and think about their vote will be the catalysts to change.


It is not talking or thinking about the subject, nor how you put it that is discouraging; but since politic is a so complex machine, that it is/was used for so many bad/egoist purposes and that it is so well established and hard to change, it can't help but generate a kind of "disillusion" feeling. Politic is like a dam on wich every time you patch a hole or repair a crack it begins to leak by somewhere else. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I am from a generation where young people were still (a bit) interested in politic. It is not really the case now; youngs don't follow it anymore, the voting rate drops everytime, people voting do it more and more on their feeling of the moment. People have kind of lost confidence in the system, feel excluded from it and it seems to be at the point where the rebellion/contestation desire is passed (here the 60s-70s-80s were boiling politic periods); from the 90s on, people are getting more and more tired, disgusted and feeling that the efforts are made in vain. The youngs who militate now do it most for much more accessible/immediate causes, and a lot of people from the older generations are very bitter on the subject. It is a sad portrait to me, but I understand well that they might feel that way; and today's emphasis on individuality/egocentism and economy/profit is not a helping factor to the current "apathy".
As for the feeling of being lost, it comes from the size & complexitiy of the system as much as from the way we can get information on it. Information is most always biaised; the medias do lots of sensationalism, the politicians play a seduction game in order to have/remain in power. So it is hard to get a good view of the machine/situation for people who were just dropped in.

If a direct democracy is a way that would get back the people's interest to politics, it might just be a good thing. Another potential advantage is that it could give people a way to "force" some of the government's decisions.
As for negative points it may have, the only ones I can think of is that maybe it would be harder for the minorities to be protected in a such system? And maybe that the "ordinary citizens" lack the time/wisdom to make good decisions? But if so, doesn't that apply to democracy in any form then? Would this system/process be very expensive?

As for the topics on wich referendums would be, I assume that it would be on questions on wich the people's will is opposed to the will of the government, or on those where the population is divided.
People could obtain the government to hold a referendum by submitting petitions where a definite minimum percentage of the population express their will to be consulted on the subject? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


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I bring this subject after what Lucretia told (in the remains of the day thread) that happened to her; a car hit her, the driver just continued his way and nobody cared to go see if she was ok. That brought me questions about how people behave together with strangers, people in their community, tourists, ect.

How are the strangers behaving with each others in your countries & the places you lived in or visited? Is it common to greet pure strangers, chat a bit on general subjects with them, ask people for the time it is or any other information one can seek for?

How is the community dynamic where you live & in the places you know at the neighbourghood, area, city levels? Is it really very different depending on wether you live in a rural or urban area, or in a different country?

Why is it like that? And is it a good thing?

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Is it common to greet pure strangers, chat a bit on general subjects with them, ask people for the time it is or any other information one can seek for?


No, this is NOT common! In Sweden you don't speak to strangers unless you have to.

And comunity dynamic? What?!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

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And comunity dynamic? What?!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Here often people in the surrounding, neighbourghood, even district talk together, know each other and even organise or do things together.
For example, in the town where I lived during my teenage, that dynamic was very strong: when one moves or needs something there is always a neighbour to help; people most always know, talk and exchange with quite all the people living around & near them; even sometimes people from a whole street were organising "garage sales day" during wich every family was participating, some making food for everyone's meal (or each family makes a part of it) while others were taking care of the stands; they were sometimes puting themselves all together to buy fireworks and make an amateur firework show... And there were also activities like that at the whole town scale during local festivals, with very high participation rates.
Where I live right now it is a bit less evident than in the towns I grew up in, but it is present too; we know and talk to quit everyone in the surrounding streets, when one does big work such as cutting a sick tree himself a lot of people help for the whole process, from cutting to cleaning; someone gets his car stuck in the snow, people go and help with their grips, shovels and muscles; we go at each other's places to make our dogs play toghether...
It is not that friendly everywhere, I know, but in several places it is a bit like that. It seems to be, at least here, that the more populous a place is, often the less the "neighbours" are friendly and close from each other (in the figurative way)...


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Oh, that. Well, it's ok, I guess, we have yearly cleaning days (probablly wrong word (cleaning) but still... They're3 twice a year by the way, in the spring and in the autumn. That's fall in Brittish english <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />) where we all clean the negbourhood from old leaves and such. And we have some yearlly events we celebrate (Valborg, 30 April, where we celebrate the arrival of the spring with a big bonfire, and some surrounding events, singing and an amateur firework show <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />). I think we celebrate midsummer too, but I'm not sure... Apart from that I don't think much happens...

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[color:"orange"] It seems to be, at least here, that the more populous a place is, often the less the "neighbours" are friendly [/color]
That's an observation I would be prepared to generalize.

[color:"orange"] Is it really very different depending on wether you live in a rural or urban area, or in a different country? [/color]
Rural or urban does generally make a difference, however I cannot say that to my observation that difference in general attitude changes from country to country.

Why? {Heavy smoke clouds emanating from my pipe...}

I have seen urban quarters where people, within houses or within a street had a wonderful sense of community - as much helping each other as fending off 'strangers'. In no way different than in the average farm village.

And I have seen areas where people would hardly know their next door neighbour, far less anyone elsewhere in the house. As to in the same street...

What factors drive the creation of a community? Or, the absence or loss of what factors leads to isolation within the mass? {puff, puff, smoke ring}

Stability - I think, that is the prime factor for a community. Low fluctuation in members, a certain level of social stability (not necessarily high, but high enough to allow sharing), slow and 'soft' changes in environment, a stability providing a feeling of trust, confidence and security.

The fact, that such is (in cities) often found in cultural 'ghettos' (the Italian quarter, chinatown) is - imo - a frequent historical evolution, but not an absolute necessity.

The second factor is protection - be it from outside oppression, economic pressure, or from intrusion of 'strange', 'modern', 'other' concepts of living and thinking.

The price is a a certain loss of privacy and individuality - anything you do is visible, viewed and commented, and more often than not, deviations from the 'norm' are more or less openly fought.

Yes, I have heard of multi-cultural communities with rapidly changing members and full of sparkling new ideas - but they are rare, very rare, I believe. And I would bet that they have a stable core of some rather special people. And this leads to a third, or maybe a sub-factor - homogenety.

Homogenety forming the 'common factor' - be it national origin, race, religion, or even intellectual independence (a nice way of saying 'revolutionary'). Non-conforming to the 'norm', fighting the 'system', can also be a common attitude. Whether you wear the 'non-conformist's uniform', dye your hair in neon colors, or tattoo and pierce your body in abundance - that is as much group dynamics as stubbornly defending traditions.

Now - is that good? Is the loss of that to be deplored?

To the extent it is nowadays possible in some areas to die in your apartment without anybody noticing - yes. So, abandon your PCs, shut down the TVs, and go outside and meet your neighbours, have an interest in people living next to you - COMMUNICATE!





In times of crisis it is of the utmost importance not to lose your head (Marie Antoinette)
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