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#343195 26/01/07 05:53 AM
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Hello, it's been a long time since I've visited these forums (so long in fact that I've forgotten my login name and password and had to create a new account <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).

Anyway, I played Divine Divinity when it first came out and I loved it. One of the things that I liked most about it was the simple point & click mouse controls.

Well, I've been reading all the posts about the new RPG and in several of them I've seen mention of keyboard movement (WASD or arrow keys). Oh dear! I can't tell you how much I loathe keyboard controlled games <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />.

So I've returned to the forum just to beg and plead for Larian not to scrap the mouse in favor of keyboard controls (I know it's easier to program, but let's not get lazy here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />).

By all means include keyboard controls (lot's of people prefer them) but please don't abandon the mouse. Just because the new game is going to be 3D, doesn't mean that mouse controls will no longer work.

Look at Neverwinter Nights and Dungeon Siege, their mouse controls work brilliantly. However, I suppose what I'd really like to see is something like the controls used in Guild Wars, that has BOTH keyboard and mouse support (that way you cater to as many people as possible <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />).

As for rotating the camera around, I'd be happy with either 'Edge screen tracking' (such as Neverwinter Nights and Dungeon Siege use) or by holding down the right mouse button (such as Guild Wars uses). To be honest, I think I like the Guild Wars method better. It's very nice to have the ability to look up and down as well as around (it really shows off a 3D world very well).

Of course, for those people who prefer to use the keyboard, the arrow keys (or whatever keys they want to map it to) should also rotate the camera.

So please, please, please Larian, I'm begging you on bended knees, don't abandon your roots, but include both options for your players.

Cheers

#343196 26/01/07 07:58 AM
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Another vote for mouse! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Welcome (back) Tiptoe! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cool avatar <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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#343197 26/01/07 08:55 AM
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If you had an account around when DD first came out, you would have had to create a new account anyway, since the forum server and software was changed in March of 03 (accounts were not transferred over to the new forum). Otherwise, you could have tried the password reminder function on the login page with any email addresses you may have used to register the first time to get you account info.


As for game controls, there is going to be an Xbox360 and PS3 port of the game, so it will be need to be controllable with a gamepad. In the unlikely event they scrap mouse support in the PC version for some reason, you still wouldn't be forced to use the keyboard as the primary controller.

The Larians have not said anything about game controls. The various mentions of WASD, etc were mostly in discussions about combat systems, which the Larians have also not revealed very much about.

#343198 26/01/07 11:19 AM
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As someone who is in favor of the keyboard controls for movement, I have to say something about the guildwars system.
Guild Wars did allow both the keyboard and the mouse for movement, but it would need an option in the option menus to turn it on/off.
While we don't know how the combat will be done, a movement system like the one in guild wars wouldn't allow the combat I want.
It would be impossible to use mouseclicks as swordslashes for example, since a click could also mean move to another location.

But I guess we should just wait patiently for some news, since noone of us knows what larian is planning.



There is no spoon !
#343199 26/01/07 11:24 AM
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I agree completely on the fact mouse and wasd navigation should be both possible, however this does have it's downside. Any of these controltypes would not be combinable and only be used with a settings toggle. You said wasd should have arrow keys for camera control... wich would make this game unplayable, you'll need both hands on the keyboard and won't be able to target.

Here what I've got in mind.

Mouse navigation (isometric camera standard)
moving: point & click
attacking/selecting: right-click
camera: screen edge tracking / arrow keys

Keyboard navigation (3rd person camera standard)
moving: wasd
attacking/selecting: left click mouse
camera: right click+hold mouse

tho mind the problems point & click could have with screen edge tracking. So this would need another feature:
camera types:
- isometric: (3D-rotate around character's z-axis)
- free camera: (3D around all character's axis)
- fixed camera: disables screen edge tracking (only if mouse navigation)
- first-person: mouse-tracking + first-person view(only if keyboard navigation) This does make targetting hard as your target would need to be in te center of your screen.


It's one of these days...
#343200 26/01/07 05:01 PM
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Thanks a lot for the welcome back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. Draghermosran I quite like your first idea:

Quote
Here what I've got in mind.

Mouse navigation (isometric camera standard)
moving: point & click
attacking/selecting: right-click
camera: screen edge tracking / arrow keys


I'd be very happy with this method. I hope you'll all forgive me for any suggestions that I made about keyboard controls, as I said, I don't play games that use the keyboard, so I really know nothing about it (I was just trying to give an example of what might be possible <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).

However, the subject of mouse controls is another matter. Have any of you ever played a game called Summoner? It's a 3D game that has the best mouse controls of any game I've ever played.

It's not exactly what I'd call an isometric view. The camera is slightly above the character, but not quite looking over their shoulder. Here's a screenshot:

[Linked Image]

To move your character, you click a spot on the ground and the character moves there. You can also hold down the left mouse button to enable continous movement (in this state, the camera gently swings behind the character and the character follows the mouse pointer until the mouse button is released).

To rotate the camera, you use screen edge tracking. The game also uses a marvellous feature called 'ghosting'. Whenever the camera collides with a solid object such as a wall or tree, the object 'ghosts' out. Here's an excerpt from the 'Summoner Designer Documents' on how it works:

Quote
When creating 3rd person 3D games, one of the biggest challenges the design team faces is: How do we treat the camera? In many games, the camera often becomes a source of annoyance to the player rather than an extension of his/her playing experience. With Summoner, one of our goals was to make sure the camera became an intuitive and easy to use system in the game. When we first implemented it we decided to go with an isometric view, with a freely rotating camera that the player could control. If the main character ever got caught behind a building then you could swing the camera around (using the character as the pivot point) so that you had a clear line of sight to your character/party. We also implemented a ghosting system, so that if there were meshes in between the camera and the main character, we would ghost out those meshes. The basic shape of these meshes could still be seen by the player, but you could also see where the character was and what he/she was doing. This was one of the first rendering systems that we put in and it turned out to be very nice. Because of the ghosting system the player doesnít necessarily have to constantly be controlling both the character and the camera.


And a screenshot of it in action:

[Linked Image]

Summoner's camera has another very subtle and terrific feature, the camera is normally at a fixed height from the character, but when going up or down hills, the camera very gently and subtlety changes its angle, so that you look 'up' the hill when going up and look 'down' the hill when going down. It's a tiny little feature that most people probably don't even notice, but it makes an enormous difference to the gameplay.

I know that I'm going on and on about this, but I can't stress enough how important I believe this subject is. I think that the controls a game uses are one of the most important aspects of any game. For me at least, if the controls are messed up and awkward to use, then I simply won't play that game, no matter how wonderful it otherwise is (Gothic is a perfect example of this).

I want Divine Divinity 2 to be the best single player game ever made, so I hope you'll all bear with me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />.

Cheers

#343201 26/01/07 06:08 PM
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Summoner's camera has another very subtle and terrific feature, the camera is normally at a fixed height from the character, but when going up or down hills, the camera very gently and subtlety changes its angle, so that you look 'up' the hill when going up and look 'down' the hill when going down. It's a tiny little feature that most people probably don't even notice, but it makes an enormous difference to the gameplay.


There was one MMORPG (Asherons Call 2? Can't quite remember...) that did it similar. Then when I played another MMORPG that did not have this nice feature (or was it AC2 that did not do well on this aspect?) only then I noticed how nice this feature was. Really nice! How I missed it after experiencing that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

It has to be implemented in the right way... it could be annoying if the camera always shows things you don't want to see... and you have to adjust it to see the things interesting you.

Oh, if you implement this nice feature... please also give us the option to turn it off.

#343202 26/01/07 07:12 PM
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Hard to discuss about the control scheme right now, because we don't know which perspective Larian uses for the game. 3rd Person? First Person? Or even ISO?
I think it will be First Person, and then I would prefer the standard WASD+Mouse control scheme.

#343203 27/01/07 05:25 AM
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Oh dear! I hope you're wrong Nemisis, first person games make me seasick <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. But wouldn't it be fantastic if both views were implemented!

You can never have enough options in a game (gotta try to please all the people all the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />).

It'd be wonderful if people had the option of playing in first person or third person view, and they also had the option of using the keyboard or the mouse to control the game. That would be just perfect!

Cheers

#343204 29/01/07 01:18 AM
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i hear u, Tiptoe, & welcome back too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> i also cannot stand first-person mode so i hope that one won't be implemented at least to the point where it's crucial to complete the game. my preference would be isometric view.

as for controls, so far i have no complaints about the original controls in both <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> & <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> so a bit of keyboard & mouse control or mouse entirely are all good for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



......a gift from LaFille......
#343205 29/01/07 02:09 AM
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I agree with Jang.

I have never played a third- or first person RPG that I actually thought was all that good, and most I truly disliked.

Arx Fatalis was the best, IMO, but the Dwarf Mines level was absurd and absolutely put me off the whole game. Shame, because I'd enjoyed it up to that point.

Not one of them can stand to DD or any of the Baldur's Gate games.


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#343206 29/01/07 04:21 PM
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Vampire the Masqerade Bloodlines! Excellent game...

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#343207 16/05/07 01:06 PM
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As for game controls, there is going to be an Xbox360 and PS3 port of the game, so it will be need to be controllable with a gamepad.


I pray to God that you are wrong.

#343208 17/05/07 06:55 AM
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[color:"orange"]I pray to God that you are wrong.[/color]

Just because many RPGs with console ports are dumbed down does not mean that this must be the case (I assume that's what you are worried about).

#343209 17/05/07 12:10 PM
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Just because many RPGs with console ports are dumbed down does not mean that this must be the case (I assume that's what you are worried about).

Let's see it positively then: Can you tell me one game which has also a console port and offers a nice menu and good controls?


Nigel Powers: "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch!"
#343210 17/05/07 12:25 PM
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Just because many RPGs with console ports are dumbed down does not mean that this must be the case (I assume that's what you are worried about).

Let's see it positively then: Can you tell me one game which has also a console port and offers a nice menu and good controls?



*crickets chirping* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

If they build the game solely for the PC and then port it later, then it can still ge great. If they are truly not implementing point-and-click mechanics on the PC because those mechanics won't translate to a controller, than that is a bad sign. Developers should strive to make the console port invisible to the PC gamers, but very few of them do that.

Edit: I think that point-and-click mechanics can still translate to a controller. The console game might end up playing a lot like the Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance series would.

Last edited by doctor_kaz; 17/05/07 12:45 PM.
#343211 17/05/07 11:21 PM
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Just because many RPGs with console ports are dumbed down does not mean that this must be the case (I assume that's what you are worried about).

Let's see it positively then: Can you tell me one game which has also a console port and offers a nice menu and good controls?

Railroad Tycoon 2. It was good on the PC and they made an all-too-faithful port to the PlayStation. You could not read a thing! At least the PC version was safe.

#343212 18/05/07 06:53 AM
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Elgi;
[color:"orange"]Can you tell me one game which has also a console port and offers a nice menu and good controls?[/color]

I have not played or seen any console games since the original Nintendo and Sega. I have played several PC versions of console games (though not recently enough I remember the controls very well). Some PC ports have been updated to take advantage of keyboard and mouse controls (ie entering save names rather than using save slots or auto-generated names based on place and time, etc), while others simply map the gamepad function to appropriate keys.



Doctor Kaz;
[color:"orange"]If they build the game solely for the PC and then port it later, then it can still ge great.[/color]

I assume they are designing it primarily for the PC, but keeping console limitations in mind. That doesn't mean that have to drop to the lowest common denominator, though. I've played PC games that could be controlled either by keyboard+mouse or gamepad (and perhaps some keyboard), so hopefully they will add gamepad support, keep the interface the same as much as feasible, but not drop features from the PC version that do not translate well to the console.

#343213 19/05/07 10:08 AM
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I don't see why a console port would be so dramatic for pc users.

As I said before, it doesn't need to be dumbed down. A lot of console owners have brains too...

...and a lot of them, just like I said before, pray to have decent RPG's playable from the comfort of their couch (plus it's better for my back :P )

#343214 15/11/07 08:31 AM
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Vote for mouse from me too.

I play when I want to relax from work. I use a keyboard all day. I just hate to use it while I play. There are severa very good rpg games that I haven't bought them just because they have keyboard controls.


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