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doen Offline OP
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greetz to you. i've had BD since it first came out, had to part with $70 for it and hated it when i first tried it.. i've been playing it lately, i snagged a $9.95 version of DD (now i just hate DD and will probably play that in 3-4 years) anyway that my background, now back OT.

[color:"orange"]feedback thus far on BD, just started imp village[/color]

shield block skill (et al)
can maybe be changed a little. do i have a base % chance to block ALL enemy attacks? - if my skill is say, 10% - will it be 10% vs a simple orc AND 10% vs a major arch-demon lord? if not already you could maybe do something like skill_value + (player_level - enemy_level) ??

where are the knockback effects and things like this?

there are TOO MANY drops in general. you rebalanced too many arrow drops :P long story short - reduce all drops by say 15% ~ 30% frequency or make monsters have there own RND chance to drop? and arrow pile amounts can easily be reduced by say 70% ? i ended act 1 with over 5000 arrows! (not in the same pile)

WHAT MONSTER AI? so far i've seen a ranged attacker try to keep distance from me, that was mildly satisfying. the few magic users i've encountered so far have just been annoying, not smart.. i'll look for more stuff tho' ..i DID see the peek of the week that gets all excited about a mage using a teleport type spell to get out of a corner, i hope this is not all there is.
^
WHY DID YOU NOT ALSO MAKE AI/TACTICS OPTION FOR PLAYER USED CHARACTERS? (the non-player controlled one at least!) - it took me a while to come to terms with your FRIENDLY/HOSTILE setting. i hope you expand on this because it detracts from the game. it is way too basic and ineffective. you go to the trouble of letting me pick up a darn piece of cheese (of all things) so go to the trouble here also - maybe some simple switches such as range to keep from enemy (if using ranged weapon) what % of HP loss to use healing potions, what spells to use. to make it even easier (see just below)
^
EXPAND ON YOUR TROPHY/BEASTIARY FEATURE FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD. put switches in there that mod how the player deals with that enemy! (do they keep a distance? do they fall back when there are X amount of enemy near? do they use magic? sheez - you don't even NEED certain switches. if your trophy feature reports the players KNOW the creature is 90% vulnerable to fire and they have fire weapons/spells then USE THEM AUTOMATICALLY.
^
if a game were to bother making personality traits for the characters, you could have all sorts of fun here also! like characters that have phobias of certain monsters and penalties when fighting them, and not being able to have much control of how they deal with that monster (ie: if you try to adjust certain settings a dialogue will come up [something like] "no way! i hate <enemy_name>!"
^
going further still.. introduce morale. have the proximity range they keep vs a enemy modified by the current morale? (as well as traits/skills/etc) ..then have the damage to HP affect the morale slightly ..and down the rabbit hole we go <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
^
one of these days a game will realise to make a user adjustable THREAT LEVEL for enemies and items (from 1-100) (they are starting to catch on with this beastiary/trophy feature) what you do is this - we'll use orcs as the example, because usually they're just easy enemies: you call up the monster-lore skill/beastiary/trophy/whatever, and you give the orcs a threat level of say "10" - now you R-click an item, say "magic arrows +2" and give them a threat level of "11" - now the game knows not to waste these +2 magic arrows against the simple orcs - you only auto-use items of a lower or equal threat level! and the player can adjust it all! - of course you have to start programming new features into battle etc (checking the enemy, what the vulnerabilities, resistances are etc) but it's up to you how far you want to go with it.. the players in battle could "observe" for a round instead of "attacking" perhaps? (to try to increase the lore) you could also make different attacks, eg: an attack called "toy-with" which tries to coax new monster lore out of your opponent (you're toying with them to see what they're capable of, the downside is, you leave youself kind of vulnerable to the attack should it happen) -- things like this, if you bother to put them in games, save the player from having to do it all manually, would you rather click mouse buttons say 3-4 times to do a series of actions which are essentially 1 action or not? i'd rather not, so the more the game knows the better! ..i'll be doing something like this in my RPG <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (i do some programming also)
^
consider how gamers save and reload to find things out. work WITH it instead of against it?

hey. those 2 gargoyles you spawn early in that long passage of the citadel. (they're so warm my brother) - they suck. that is a really cheesy way to do that. you could have at least made that a trap to detect? (another save+load issue) ..and just where did they come from? they just *poof* out of thin air! (cheesy) - you go to the trouble of making the cut scenes for (eg) taxelhix leaving areas and letting me pick up darn cheese!, so try to avoid cutting corners like this? the more you can keep your game world as a living, breathing, dynamic thing - opposed to instance_create(x,y,obj_gargoyle) the better.. it reminds me of my days with dumb dungeon masters - "you're in a room.. .. ..there's 100 green dragons there.. .. ..you're dead"

smaller areas with more detail rather than sparse large areas is better.. unless there is going to be much fighting, then we need some space.. the first battlefield map is.. well, dumb. you could have at least put those 3 bridges in the *middle* of the maps, not up/down/up/down/etc - i don't have the teleport stones at that stage - and i don't like having to run/rest all that way to get to my destination because you think it's good that i have to explore the whole area to get to the end.. it was annoying. i hear the other Bfeilds are different. good.

why does the 'lucky cap' rename to 'skull reward' at act 2? (bug?)

learning/unlearning skills is decent enough (although mystifying, i can go from being a fighter to becoming a full fledged mage/thief in 3 seconds) - i feel this detracts from the 'reality' of the game world.. maybe only be able to do this in a town (a school building or appropriate guild?) or only be able to do this around the skill teachers? meh. not important. but neither is picking up a stone bottle or cup apparently.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

that's all for where i'm up to.. there were some other issues and i'll probably think of more as i go, so maybe back later with more BD stuff, i doubt you plan to release further patches tho' (see my 'bone spear ring' post in general forum)

erm.. i will post ideas for future games in the other forum.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

well... i enjoy BD thus far, it's not my favourite RPG or anything, but i like the detail they did in picking up just about anything (throwing barrels and packages is a bit superfluous tho' imho) the kind-of classless system and some other stuff..

spoken dialogues? big deal. most of the voices are very amateur, but edmond (the ghost) is voiced great! and the death knight is pretty entertaining.. to me it's just taking space on my 6.5 gig hard drive..

can i delete the music files and leave ingame music off to free up more space? save-games are large! i'm stuck on retro technology for a while and this would be handy. (some games allow this) you got rid of starforce? (good!)

Last edited by doen; 08/11/07 03:47 PM.

my name was ben. enjoy the journey. facehatguy: (death knight) "this Tea is delightful!" unknown: "the troll you spare today could be burning villages tomorrow" (heh. trolls and fire do not mix)
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Your chance to hit and be hit are dependent on the relative level of your opponent, so presumably the same is true of shield blocking (I didn't use shields at all).

As I understand it, they modified the DD AI system for BD, dropping friendly NPC AI (ie theft detection and reaction) to improve enemy AI. It is still a little lacking, though. With the next gen game being done from scratch, there should be much better AI.

More options for party member AI would be nice to have. I don't know about automatically switching weapons (could be useful, might result in mostly the computer playing itself), but there should be a way to tell party members not to rush off alone to attack strong opponents, or to not use powerful spells or expensive/rare arrows on weak opponents. In most RPGs with AI controlled party members, I have had to directly control an archer or mage, so they were not wasting arrows or mana.

I would rather have base settings for weak, equal or strong opponents than assign various threat levels to individual monster and weapon types.

Observing opponents is a good idea. There could be an option to take up a defensive position, which reduces damage taken, and may allow you to attack that creature more effectively, get a slight experience point boost, or improve a skill slightly. If it is possible to attack to provoke rather than do damage, it might make sense to have at least one party member in a defensive position observing more carefully.

I remember an option in an old console game to have the computer automatically fight for you (basically attack the nearest opponent with whatever weapon was equipped). This was handy to skip to the end of fights with weak opponents, but if the AI system was elaborate enough that you could do this with most fights it would essentially be taking you out of the game (it would be more of a RTS than an RPG).


Unique and set items loose their special status when changing acts (so the name changes and they can be sold). I assume this is due to limitations in the inventory system. DD did not really have separate acts, but I do not know how much of that system was kept, updated or rewritten for BD.


You can delete the '..\Beyond Divinity\Static\intro.mpg' file, if you wish (the other mpg files can presumably be deleted after you have done the associated act change). I never tried deleting the music files, but you could try renaming the 'music' folder, and see if the game has any problems afterwards.

The saved game folders are fairly compressible. You can zip older saves to free up space, before deleting or otherwise removing them from your hard drive.

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doen Offline OP
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Quote
(...) so presumably the same is true of shield blocking

good to know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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With the next gen game being done from scratch, there should be much better AI.

i hope so. it is needed. (see below)

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(...) there should be a way to tell party members not to rush off alone to attack strong opponents

exactly! (see above) (..but i hope they implement MORE) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> so it seems we have similar issues there..? i wonder if most others feel as strongly as we do about this? maybe a poll?

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I don't know about automatically switching weapons (could be useful, might result in mostly the computer playing itself)

yeah i hear what you're saying.. maybe in the trophy section, they could implement a switch for it? (use best weapon Y/N)
- or have some type of AI determine it? (due to a personality trait perhaps?)

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I would rather have base settings for weak, equal or strong opponents than assign various threat levels to individual monster and weapon types.

hmm.. when an opponent type is first encountered, compare average player LVL to opponent level and generate THREAT RATE from that? (there's a decent BASE SETTING method?)
..but allow the player to MODIFY this THREAT RATE in the trophy section (i would rename that to the "beastiary" or something, but meh?)
- trophies (to me and some others here) seems to imply something different?
..i would rather spend less time clicking buttons if possible, this is my concern here - continually micro-managing an archer and/or mage (as you also describe) is frustrating to say the least, and detracts from the game experience. these types are not suited for melee.
- it is near inexcusable that they act the way they do.

Code
Observing opponents is a good idea.

agreed. but only if they expand on its applications (doing the things we describe there, otherwise.. its only function seems to be a temp version of the WISDOM exp bonus skill) ??

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I remember an option in an old console game to have the computer automatically fight for you

rings a bell for me also.. you must have been playing RPG's at least as long as i have, if not, longer.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> ..these types of 'quick' options sometimes overlook tactics etc (i would never use the quick battle option for a fight in Jagged Alliance 2, for example)
i see what you are getting at where the computer starts taking over from the player, but again, my beef here is the continual mouse clicking etc.. (micro-managing)
- AI routines like i mention DO seem to take these matters out of the players hand.. but if the combat engine was 'fleshed out' * a bit more - it would still be fun to just *watch* these combats happen (not to imply that you the player cannot do anything in combat) [but] even if AI is taking over certain actions, the AI would only be doing what you told it to do anyway, so in that sense it is you doing what you would have done expect you don't have to click like a maniac and use pause so often etc..?? i am trying similar methods in my little RPG test engines with some success <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Unique and set items loose their special status when changing acts

this just raises further questions for me.. i'll leave that alone..

thanks for the advice on the files there.. hope to be swapping ideas with you again soon.

* FLESHED OUT COMBAT ENGINE.
knockback effects, a tough monster that swats you aside (or you can even do some swatting if powerful enough?) how about a grapple and/or throw move? unarmed combat? disarming opponents, using cover and terrain, keeping away if non-melee (a must!), taunts and other combat dialogue options (such as surrendering or accepting a surrender, so surrendering to an enemy is bad you say? - how so? just make each monster type have a known home base area or a town area etc, or generate a small map for the purpose! throw in a jail, cooking pot, guards, what have you, and offer the player some methods of escape? it's not too hard.. lessen the work by defaulting to death if surrendering to undead and other types etc)
oh. some new types of weapons would be nice.. but not essential.. something like a net, or bola to incapacitate enemies (capture them etc) - then have bounties on some enemies, or components that can gotten from slain or captured opponents in this way, etc..

well.. this could go on for a while.. your thoughts? i'm after the rolls-royce of RPG's, where i can actually LIVE and EXIST in the game world.. i'm trying to develop one myself, but i don't need to tell you this is a slow, painstaking journey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i hope they do well with their new game.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


my name was ben. enjoy the journey. facehatguy: (death knight) "this Tea is delightful!" unknown: "the troll you spare today could be burning villages tomorrow" (heh. trolls and fire do not mix)
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[ally AI]
[color:"orange"]so it seems we have similar issues there..?[/color]

Actually, party AI was never a problem for me in BD. I played a warrior / archer combo, and only set the archer to aggressive. Unlike some other games, AI controlled archers don't attack opponents outside the immediate fight when there are closer targets, and when they do attack something from a distance, it doesn't draw in a huge mob. During the first act both my characters were warriors (in the unpatched game arrows were more scarce/expensive, and most act 1 enemy were more vulnerable to crushing damage anyway), so I usually left them both selected and had them attack the same target.

In other games, as long as only one character has serious AI problems, you can simply switch to that character to control, and just have to tweak the behaviour of the others. If party AI problems are more serious, then you either have to disable it (if possible), find some workaround or babysit the other characters (which could be enough to for me to quit the game).

Before one of the Diablo II patches improved AI, the first henchman you were given was not worth the effort to keep alive, and I just played without her. The improved AI it made a huge difference, and I started reviving her when she was killed (much less than before). I never considered her a party member, though (henchmen were never intended to be), merely an extra damage bonus and ranged attack. If party members are going to be given an elaborate enough AI to act on their own (at least during combat) with little intervention, they would need a detailed background and strong interactions with other characters to make them party members rather than henchmen.


[color:"orange"]..but allow the player to MODIFY this THREAT RATE[/color]

Perhaps the game could dynamically adjust the rating based on the actual battles. That way if your equipment, skills or playing style made you more or less vulnerable against a particular type of opponent, the threat level would change from the default level-based assessment.
This would be more bookkeeping for the game (keeping track of each ally and opponents' hits and damage done for the duration of each fight), but would allow reasonable AI choices without requiring a lot of micro-managing.


[color:"orange"]you must have been playing RPG's at least as long as i have[/color]

The first RPG games I played were the Final Fantasy and Ultima games on the original Nintendo. Before that I had a Radio Shack TRS-80 (which my brothers and I got for Christmas the year it was $1000, rather than the next year, when the price dropped to not much more than $100). The closest thing to an RPG on the TRS-80 was a first person 3D dungeon crawl with line drawn graphics and text based commands. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


[color:"orange"]i see what you are getting at where the computer starts taking over from the player, but again, my beef here is the continual mouse clicking etc.. (micro-managing)[/color]

Well I don't want to micro-manage combat, but I think having the ability to simply watch would make fights boring after awhile. Even if allies are simply doing what I would have told them to do anyway, it could make the game less immersive. I have not played a game with anything close to that detailed of an AI system, though, so it may work better in practice than I expect.

Anyway, there are probably practical restriction which will limit how complex the AI system will be. It should be good enough that there are no easy exploits for killing strong opponents (unless they are designed to be stupid, or something), fights are challenging and allies do not do dumb things. After that, there are diminishing returns on making the system more elaborate.


[color:"orange"]* FLESHED OUT COMBAT ENGINE.[/color]

I've only tried using a knockback effect in a couple of games, and found it sometimes useful, but usually annoying (draws out fights too much if triggered on all/most hits). Some enemy using this effect would be fine, though (melee characters would either have to take a lot of damage or change their approach).

I think the rest of these combat suggestion have been discussed (in various forms) in different topics here, with pretty much general support (to various degrees).

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sounds like you're doing some programming also. (what language?)

(seems micro-management vs AI is the topic, and giving the characters more detail with things like personality traits, etc)

i'll leave it to the other topic to pursue this stuff with you.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


my name was ben. enjoy the journey. facehatguy: (death knight) "this Tea is delightful!" unknown: "the troll you spare today could be burning villages tomorrow" (heh. trolls and fire do not mix)
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I have done some programming, mostly in Fortran. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I almost started learning Ada awhile ago, but something came up, and I haven't gotten back to it.

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So Raze, you are a member of Larian Studio?..And what project r u working on?
--I like medieval culture. arting and my dream is working for blizzard.
Im learning photoshop, 3dsmax5 and HTML...Hope you will give us more interesting RPGs...


+I come to cleanse this land+
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No, he is no member of Larian ... Some people ddo programming as a hobby or for other companies, you know ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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