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I've been experiening some hack n Slash games this year in 2007 that have been in full 3d. For instance, Hellgate:London. I've been finding this genre in Full 3D quite lacking, and it loses its feel and originality compared to games like Baldurs Gate, Diablo 2, Divine Divinity, Titan Quest ect.


This Genre should stay away from full 3d and stick to a graphical engine like Titan Quest, which looks great, without going completely 3D like Hellgate:London which I did not like at all.

Hellgate:London had to be one of the biggest Letdowns. Apart from releasing the game with tons of Bugs, there were only 5 bland tilesets, and the overall look and feel of the game got old fast.


If anyone can make a Hack n Slash work in full 3D though, it will probably be larian studios if they do make this game in 3D. It may possibly be the first huge brimming hack n slash open ended world to successfully hit shelves.

I just hope that putting the game in 3D doesn't make it feel more like an MMO rather than a Hack N Slash which tends to be the case in today's games like Hellgate:London.

Anyhow, I would love to see Hack N Slashes stay 2D but with gorgeous graphics like Titan Quest for example. It doesn't need to be 3D to look good or meet today's standards. I think Hack N Slashes prefer the overhead 2d look we've all known that comes with this genre from Diablo to Titan Quest.


Please make DD2 with DD's wonderful (Features) Gameplay, Setting, Story, Freedom in mind.

Last edited by JordanLee; 25/12/07 05:03 AM.
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DD2 will be in 3D, though the Larians have not revealed if the camera angle will be isometric ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> ), third person, first person ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" /> ) or adjustable / selectable.

With Divine Divinity being a 2D game, there needed to be a new set of animations hand drawn for each unique piece of equipment. Practically, that meant that all items in a particular equipment class (ie light armour or large shields) looked the same when equipped on the character. The set of drawings for each type of animation (at various angles) take time to create and consume a lot of disk space. Beyond Divinity dropped to 2 CDs largely due to having 3D characters, which also allowed more and a greater variety of equipment types (though some people still prefer the handed-drawn look of 2D).

There is a screenshot here. There were also 3 early screenshots from an area created to test the game engine (so you can not use them to draw any conclusions about the game): one, two and three.


[color:"orange"]I just hope that putting the game in 3D doesn't make it feel more like an MMO rather than a Hack N Slash[/color]

I hope it doesn't feel like a hack and slash game. I tend to avoid action RPGs, unless there is something unique or interesting about them. Despite a few flaws I liked I of the Dragon, for example, but got bored and gave up playing Diablo 1 and 2 before finishing.

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Divine Divinity pretty much takes Diablo 2's positives and highs then works off of them into something better. I consider Divine Divinity to be better than Diablo 2. The style of gameplay that Larian has made their RPG's has been more Action RPG than anything else. I don't want to see them steer away from it.

Theres already a lack of worthy action RPG's in the first place as it is. In 2007 alone I've played more games that have had quests such as - Kill X amount of enemies, retrieve this item and deliver it to this person, kill this Creature, over and over again in every 3d MMO, Action RPG, this year.

I missed the style I loved, and went back to these RPG's of the past which I consider Gems. Not the Junk that has been releasing the last couple of years. Whether or not Larian sticks to their Roots and makes a game like their previous
RPG's story and Action wise, I will support, but I'm hoping they stick to their roots in gameplay, setting, and story.


A couple of games have had really mellow combat systems being Neverwinter Nights 2, Neverwinter Nights, ect., but those are D&D based games, which are much less intense than a hack n slash. If Larian choses to change the gameplay, it will most likely turn out like combat of an MMO which is very repetitive and boring.


I wouldn't have minded if Larian just used a 3D engine Similar to Titan Quest's with a nice Physic's Engine, which would work fine for today's looks and standards.

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[color:"orange"]Divine Divinity pretty much takes Diablo 2's positives and highs then works off of them into something better. I consider Divine Divinity to be better than Diablo 2.[/color]

Agreed, on both counts.


[color:"orange"]The style of gameplay that Larian has made their RPG's has been more Action RPG than anything else.[/color]

I tend to think of action RPGs as just action games with RPG style leveling and stats, devoid of any serious plot and at best having straight combat and FedEx quests. A real RPG (say DD, or PS:T) may have a similar combat system, but there is a plot, non-combat quests and (ideally) multiple ways to approach various problems.


[color:"orange"]over and over again in every 3d MMO, Action RPG, this year.[/color]

That problem is more with the genre of game, though, not the choice of 2D vs 3D.
What I know of quest design in MMO games is one of the reasons I have never played one. I tend not to look at action RPGs unless there is something different about it or I see a favourable mention from a trusted source.


[color:"orange"]I'm hoping they stick to their roots in gameplay, setting, and story.[/color]

The Larians have not said much about gameplay, but from the ending of BD I would assume DD2 will be back in some of the same settings as DD and continue its story. There has been some discussion of moral dilemmas, so the plot should be a main focus in the game, with the player's choices having an impact beyond a particular quest, etc.


[color:"orange"]A couple of games have had really mellow combat systems being Neverwinter Nights 2, Neverwinter Nights, ect., but those are D&D based games, which are much less intense than a hack n slash.[/color]

When I use the phrase 'hack and slash' I am generally referring to straight combat (or sometimes a game consisting of just combat), rather than a particular type of combat system. As far as that goes I'm not too particular, as long as the game as a whole is fun or interesting. That said, intense is better than mellow, as long as there is some kind of strategic element to combat (fast paced doesn't necessarily make it better).

The Larians started a discussion about what we would like for a combat system (mentioning that it would be best if the same controls would work for combat in flight, since at some point our character(s) will be able to transform into a dragon). However, they did not reveal anything about what they intended / decided.

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I hope I'm not butting into this convo. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One of the mmo games I've played allowed you to switch the camera view from 3rd to 1st person. It also allowed you to click on the right mouse button and hold it down and drag it to rotate the view and set a certain angle. And also, scrolling the mouse wheel allowed you to zoom in or out. Of course, you could bind the various functions to keys if you wanted.

I've no idea what camera view Larian is using but hopefully, it won't affect the gameplay. I just hope the camera view won't jerk from one angle to another: scrolling or zooming might be more feasible.

Besides, I think a third person view works better when battling tons of enemies: do you really want to get whacked from behind and have to oh, run around before you can "see" the enemy? Or simply, be able to turn in a direction and target the enemies from behind, the front, on top or even below?

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[color:"orange"]I've no idea what camera view Larian is using but hopefully, it won't affect the gameplay.[/color]

I think JordanLee is more concerned with the types of games that typically use 3D vs 2D, rather than the actual graphics type (except that 3D done poorly can be very repetitive and boring, whereas 2D backgrounds require more effort to create, so there is usually more care taken with them).

The first RPG type games to switch to 3D were action RPGs (which had no plot so needed graphics as a selling point) and MMOs (which need to minimize bandwidth usage). Both types of games also need a high item count (which is easier in 3D), so you can upgrade your equipment to kill stronger opponents to get better equipment, so you can kill stronger opponents...


[color:"orange"]Besides, I think a third person view works better when battling tons of enemies[/color]

Tunnel vision and lack of realistic surround sound are 2 of the reasons I do not like the first person perspective. It can also cause motion sickness in some people if you have to look around as you move (because there is no peripheral vision).

The first and only game of Quake I played didn't last long. I killed the first bad guy, then heard something very faint... look around... nothing. I started walking down a hallway, then heard a dog bark. It was slightly louder, so wherever it was, it was getting closer... wait, nothing, look behind me, nothing. I kept walking, and after another 30 seconds, or so, the screen turned red as I entered an intersection. I looked right, left and behind me, but there was nothing there. I turned around to start walking again and the screen went red a couple more times. My character then died and fell over, at which point I could see the dog chewing on my legs.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

I played the demo for Wizardry 8 and bought the game. It is first person, but the fact that the combat is turn based mitigates some of the problems I have with that. Actually, I am not usually a huge fan of turn based combat, but other than being a tad slow it seemed to work well in this game.

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[color:"orange"]I've no idea what camera view Larian is using but hopefully, it won't affect the gameplay.[/color]

I think JordanLee is more concerned with the types of games that typically use 3D vs 2D, rather than the actual graphics type (except that 3D done poorly can be very repetitive and boring, whereas 2D backgrounds require more effort to create, so there is usually more care taken with them).


Ah, gotcha.

Still I'd rather they don't try the "full 3d view". That'd be a complete turn-off.

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The first RPG type games to switch to 3D were action RPGs (which had no plot so needed graphics as a selling point) and MMOs (which need to minimize bandwidth usage). Both types of games also need a high item count (which is easier in 3D), so you can upgrade your equipment to kill stronger opponents to get better equipment, so you can kill stronger opponents...


[color:"orange"]Besides, I think a third person view works better when battling tons of enemies[/color]

Tunnel vision and lack of realistic surround sound are 2 of the reasons I do not like the first person perspective. It can also cause motion sickness in some people if you have to look around as you move (because there is no peripheral vision).

The first and only game of Quake I played didn't last long. I killed the first bad guy, then heard something very faint... look around... nothing. I started walking down a hallway, then heard a dog bark. It was slightly louder, so wherever it was, it was getting closer... wait, nothing, look behind me, nothing. I kept walking, and after another 30 seconds, or so, the screen turned red as I entered an intersection. I looked right, left and behind me, but there was nothing there. I turned around to start walking again and the screen went red a couple more times. My character then died and fell over, at which point I could see the dog chewing on my legs.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

I played the demo for Wizardry 8 and bought the game. It is first person, but the fact that the combat is turn based mitigates some of the problems I have with that. Actually, I am not usually a huge fan of turn based combat, but other than being a tad slow it seemed to work well in this game.


I've such problems too: the last time I played such a game, I was sick for days and kept puking plus I lost my sense of balance for a while. =/ That was when I decided enough was enough and thus, I rarely touch such games these days. Before, I just simply put up with it.

Quake, huh? I used to play Q3 with some friends. Your description leads me to suspect the gameplay in Q1 likely had problems which were improved on. Still, that sounds kinda absurd: unable to see the target that attacked you.

Lack of realistic surround sound? Hmmm... that I didn't know. I guess you'd probably need some pricy sound card and a set of 7.2 speakers to duplicate that. Still, that's a rather messy and expensive solution which might have only limited results.

Turn-based combat with first person view? Sounds interesting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've only played some of Fallout 1 and thought that was a good use of combat as opposed to blindly splaying the opponents with hails of bullets. Plus, the use of turn-based combat seemed rather clever 'cos at that time, I'm rather sure it was quite costly to create an interface/environment like in Quake or Unreal Tournament.

I've never played Wizardry series: is it fun and interesting?

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I personally feel that First Person perspective isn't always the best for an RPG in real-time, mainly due to the difficulties of seeing what's behind you BEFORE it becomes unmanageable. Sure, Might and Magic 6-8 managed to do well with their Real-Time 3D, but they also had a decent turn-based mode if you wanted to use that instead. (I, like many others, consider Might and Magic 9 to have been a bit of a disappointment)

I rather liked Titan Quest's perspective, though zooming in more than just a tiny bit seemed to me to only be good for seeing how pretty your character looked. I also hope Larian makes a more optimized engine, as Titan Quest had frequent slowdowns for me whenever there were large numbers of moving (non-critter) objects onscreen, like swaying tree branches.

First Person CAN work well for RPGs, but in my opinion it's much better for turn-based. Since Divinity has already had 2 real-time games I would expect the fanbase to become a bit rabid if the series were suddenly made turn-based, so I wouldn't consider that a good option.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> I consider Wizardry 8 to be a decent RPG. Single player only, party-based, and in a mixed sci-fi/fantasy setting. There are 15 classes, and 11 races. Each race has base statistics, each class has required statistics to become that class, and all characters get statistic points at creation as well as every time they gain a level. Exploration of the world is done in real-time only, combats are done in turn-based only. There are 4 'spellbooks': Mage, Priest, Alchemy, and Psionics. In all 4 'spellbooks' are 6 elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Mental, and Divine. Every spell uses spellpoints from one of the elements, and can only be learned by someone who has access to a 'spellbook' that contains it. (for example, Acid Splash is a level 1 Water spell in the Alchemy spellbook, so only Alchemists, Rangers, Bishops, and Ninjas can learn it. Heal Wounds, on the other hand, is a level 1 Divine spell that belongs to Alchemy, Psionics, and Priest spellbooks, so the only classes that cannot learn it would be Fighters, Rogues, Bards, Gadgeteers, Mages, and Samurai.) If this doesn't sound overwhelming, more info can be found at the Wizardry 8 official site (Note, this is the flash version of the site) I don't know how available it would be to buy a copy, though, as it was released in 2001 and the developers of that game (Sir-Tech Canada) are no longer in business.

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[color:"orange"]Still, that sounds kinda absurd: unable to see the target that attacked you.[/color]

You could look up or down with the mouse, I just didn't know the centred view would miss a dog right in front of the character (at some point I had to have been facing it when I turned around completely).


[color:"orange"]Lack of realistic surround sound? Hmmm... that I didn't know.[/color]

Well, it probably doesn't help that I only have a 2.1 speaker set. There are games that use positional sound, but AFAIK not enough to replace peripheral vision. You can hear where shots or monsters are coming from, but I don't think more subtle sounds or echos are reproduced.
Even after I upgrade to a 180 degree view screen and 27.5 speaker system, though, that still leaves out smell and touch. While smell can be a useful sense for detecting animals or tracking, etc I think I could pass on an authentic middle ages city smell (not to mention the poisonous chemicals used in perfumes). Force feedback is good for crude tactile response (steering wheels, etc), but I think it will be awhile before it could simulate a light breeze of something moving past, or vibrations in the ground of something moving. Depending on where you are, even a person or dog walking behind you can make detectable vibrations. In games today, if your character is standing on a rope bridge, they couldn't detect a gorilla charging at them from behind.
I think I'll wait for a direct neural interface before playing many first person real time combat games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


[color:"orange"]I've never played Wizardry series: is it fun and interesting?[/color]

The Wizardry 8 demo was fun and interesting enough for me to track down someone who still had the game for sale (that was a couple years ago, though).

There is an RPG Chat forum topic for Wizardry 8. (long)

Wikipedia's Wizardry page. (short)

A quick search on eBay only got one hit, a used (mint) version for C$100. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> DVD Box Office has it listed at $70, though it is not in stock (and may never be). Half.com has some of the earlier ones listed, but I didn't see any for Wizardry 8 that were in stock.

I'd suggest checking out the demo, and if you like the game, keep an eye out for it on eBay, or check for it whenever you are ordering other games. I've had a couple older or rare games eventually show up on eBay at a reasonable price.

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In the end, I just hope that their new 3d Engine doesn't affect the Gameplay, Story, Scenery, and Freedom we have seen in their previous works of art. Its so hard to find games nowadays that offer the sense of freedom and realism that Divine Divinity offers. In the game, you are yourself, you can make your own choices that affect the surroundings around you. I love being able to kill Npc's at anytime anywhere, not from ferocity but from a general real world feeling. It feels more in depth. I hope they keep the blood as well, I am surprised this game had received a Teen rating, the blood and gore " yes gore " are fantastic.

The reputation system is done very well, better than any other game I've come across that has tried to do a similar system. Divine Divinity just goes on and on in its (done the correct way) features. Hopefully their next installment will stick to its roots despite the new graphical engine interface and stay true.

I've seen a few games revamp their graphical engine to full 3D and in some ways fall on their face, with to many changes.

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What defines games like these is content. As we have seen in Divine Divinity, having depth can make a huge difference. I firmly believe that a 3D rpg can combine combat heavy gameplay with a decent multi-faceted storyline.

That being said, I don't think a sequel means "a revamp of the old game".


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What defines games like these is content. As we have seen in Divine Divinity, having depth can make a huge difference. I firmly believe that a 3D rpg can combine combat heavy gameplay with a decent multi-faceted storyline.

That being said, I don't think a sequel means "a revamp of the old game".



I agree. I just hope they do what Microsoft did with "Fable:The lost Chapters" and make there be several different options for viewing, whether you want the camera to be able to rotate etc.


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Hi Raze, i love you very much...
-Well, for ARPG..there are not many good ones..DD IS one of the best and we all are looking forward to DD2...No doubt that it will be 3D for many reasons..but me personal like 2D...
-lARIANNER my friends please make it that my low system PC can carry it on..hix


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I agree with Raze about the camera angles: a nice bird's-eye view is good. One of the things that originally attracted me to DD was that you could start playing it with a mouse and a few keys, then learn as you go. I don't want to have to study a book of 50 commands before I can even start playing: I have left games on the shelf that looked like I needed a degree in commands before I could even start playing.
I remember reading that the Larians kept the system requirements and controls for BD similar deliberately. They said there were improvements, but didn't want to exclude any player with older equipment. But the improvements are nice.
I assume they are doing the same for the next installment. It can't be easy to accommodate everyone's machine, what with all thhe different processors, mobos, graphics, and sound chips in use. They probably have to assume many of us will have an older mobo and be using the onboard graphics and sound (which would be very kind of them).
There is a picture on www.larian.com/nextgen.php but it does not say it is related to DD or BD, nor do I see a release date for that game.
I DO HOPE Larian Studios knows that I will be one of tens of thousands of gamers who will pre-order for a copy as soon as they announce one. I wonder how to get in on that beta-testing?


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There is a link to a video showing a few early shots of DD2 in this topic. A news show went to Larian Studios for an interview about game industry investment / tax breaks, and shot some background footage of the studio. That was on a friday afternoon, and Larian didn't know the story aired that night until the following monday, or that they would be including any game footage.

Anyway, from what is shown (which may or may not be set in stone at this point), there seems to be at least an over the shoulder camera perspective, with at least a couple varying distances and angles.


The Larians did not provide any details of the screenshot posted for DD2. Presumably it is from the game, though the earlier screenshots (links above, in my first reply) were from a test area created for the game engine.


At least with BD, late in the development process the Larians allowed any fans who could make it to their studios (at pre-arranged times) to playtest the game. There was no public beta test.


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Originally Posted by Raze
There is a link to a video showing a few early shots of DD2 in this topic.


It looks really good.. BUT I must say I'm a bit dissapointed by the player.. I mean, guy with big sword? reminds me of Korean hack-and-slash games... and I HATE Korean H/S games!


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I don't care about the camera view, but the game must have a lot of magic moments that the players will remember forever. I'll never forget that sword in the elven forest...


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What sword in the elven forest?







silly


One of the most memorable moments for me (and a lot of other people) was the conversation between the two skeletons in the Aleroth catacombs. Playing the demo, that was when I had to get the game (up to that point I was planning to get it anyway, but not necessarily the first day it was available, which is what I ended up doing).


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That talking sword stuck on a rock. I don't remeber exactly where it was...

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I must say that the Halberd of the Rock is stuck in my memory :p


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