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I agree on Ultima III and Ultima IV. These games truly opened up the RPG genre for me back in the 80s. Before Ataris and C64s there was Adventure on the Atari 2600 game console. Sigh... those were the good ol days. Just think... a block cursor 25 years ago to full 3D interactive environments today.

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What? No mention of Stonekeep yet? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> From what I hear of Bard's Tale, that would probably fit under the category as well, but I personally missed the chance to play it.

That and all the rest - BG2, Torment, & Fallout 1.

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Stonekeep? BWAH HA HA HA! I was suckered into that game... played 1 or 2 levels and then uninstalled it.

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Technically speaking, Stonekeep was far ahead of its time, when it was released. Very good AI ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Bard's Tale ... oh, my, I have never seen this game ... is it still available nowadays ?

I fear most of the "younger generation" hasn't played Bard's Tale ever, although I'm not sure ...

I liked Stonekeep, especially the Wahooka- Song ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

And through a Cheat you can have a very powerful Weapon at the very first beginning of the game - which makes everything a bit easier ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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The diablos are RPGs in a broad sence. If divinity is an rpg then the diablos are. look at the verry begining of divinity, then look at diablo 1. See how closley they resimble eachother? The only differance is isntead of one really big dungeon, you can enter houses and whatnot.

Now take diablo 1, and immagen that there was more to it, and after going down to level 16 and killing diablo, the game didint end, but isntead you could leave the town and continue doing things.

Infact stick diablo 2 to diablo 1, take the long drawn out acts that go in a straight line and isntead wrap them in a circle where you didint have to compleat one totaly to advance, but instead could wonder around between all the acts and areas... then stick all the npcs in central locations isntead of haveing them randomly placed all over.. and youv got something verry much like divinity.

The only differance is in diablo you generaly got a quest, then compleated it. In divinity you get all sorts of quests and compleat them in a random fashion.

To me divinity is diablo (1) with all the things that ever bugged me about diablo fixed. Specificly, theres more to do.

Or.. its what i wish diablo 2 could have been, diablo 1 with alot more flexability and content.

Maby all you anti-diablo people simply pre-conceaved it as a mindless hack and slash, and hence when you went to play it fixated totaly on that aspect, and ignored some of the finer points. I see diablo (1) as one of the best games of all time, and i see divinity as its equal. And while i wouldnt call diablo 1 a heavy story based rpg, i wouldnt really call divinity one eather. They <both> have story, but the game is not totaly based around the story. Diablos story is solid, its not some quickly wrighten abomination to justify a hack and slash. Did you know the first diablo was going to be a turn based game? The story was acualy quite important. Maby if they didint decide to try something new and make it real time, some of you elitists would hail it as an rpg

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I think Diablo 2 is a hack-and-slash. I like it for that though. The story and quests bugged me because they all interlocked to a point where there were all the same. "Find the secret of the Dark Tower", "Slay the evil Mistress", "Find the Treasure" were all the same quest. You could not complete one without completing all three. There's half a chapter done already! I still did the quests of course. Experience is experience and gold is gold.

I also think that Diablo is an RPG. You are one person working yor way through the story, developing yourself. Some D&D campains are nothing more than hack-fests, but you still develop your character and they still have their little traits that you impose on them.

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The games called "Diablo" are considered Action-RPGs.

They lack some of the things original RPG games have.

Interaction, for example. In the above mentioned games, interaction is greatly reduced; instead, the game focuses on combat.

Even the quests are only solvable via combat.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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You're right. It works for some, though.

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Arcanum.
I haven't played the game, but looking into reviews, it seems it is heavily bugged. I remember I installed it or the demo once long ago,
looked into combat - horrible,
looked on graphics - very poor,
and wiped it off my hdd. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

Diablo - DD
You can say action-RPG, or hack-n-slash-RPG, the idea is the same. Yes, it seems Diablo and DD are in the same genre and thats is. Talking that DD is bug free Diablo is the same as talking Unreal is Half-life + better visuals, just because both games are FPS. They are, but nevertheless they are way different.

There are similarities, there are differences, just enjoy DD if you like RPGs and you like hack-n-slash <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




"Endure. In enduring, grow strong." -Githzerai adage.
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There where a few quests in diablo 1 that didint have any direct combat related to them *however there where probibly random monsters in the area, the mushroom and arkains valor quests are examples* You see diablo was set totaly inside a dungeon, so even the non combat quests had the random monsters around to fight you. If they expanded diablo 1 they would naturaly have had non combat quests. You cant really expect to just wonder into a nice little empty area with 5 levels of dead monster corpses above you and 4 levels of hellspawn below you that just happens to have a nice little monster free quests.. that would break the game=P Basicly i define a non combat quest as a quest that dosnt require you to fight or kill anything to compleat. Diablo had these, but the whole game took place in a monster populated enviornmet.

But basicly, iv read alot about the world that diablo takes place in, iv taken the time to talk to all npcs in diablo 1 and 2. And im telling you that it is a rich and diverse game world, it just isnt shoved in your face, becaus your charicters to buisy saveing the world from evil to go fetch a farmer a new shovel so he can plant his corn and give you a gold pice as a reward and never contribute anything to the plot ever again. Those kind of pointless quests acualy offend me, make a game world then fill it with pointless-ness and call it an rpg simply becaus you can waste countless houres doing random tasks for NPCs? bah!

Diablo 2 is kinda screwy in the quest department. See they wanted to make sure that each act had 6 quests.. becaus of this there are several quests wich just shouldnt have even been listen as quests in the first place.

But basicly, what im trying to say is. Diablo (even d2 but i really feel kinda dirty trying to promote d2... i dont think its a worth wile game unless you where a d1 fan) is a solid world and could easily have been converted into a full story driven rpg if there was simply more to it. The thing to remember is that diablo has never tried to sell it for more than an action-rpg type thing. The differance is it acualy has a story, and when you play it, you acualy get a feeling that your doing something for more than just chopping off monster heads and getting items. Take a look a dungeon siege, that game is horrid, then compare it to diablo. If you have any sanity at all you should immdiatly notice the differance. Diablo is a hack and slash with amazeing rpg elements transposed over it. Dungeon siege is a poor rpg with a crappy hack and slash system transposed over it. Divinity is a hack and slash base with rpg-ness built up on it, like diablo. The only differance is divinity is not one really long dungeon, but isntead goes outwards and hence, has room for non dungeon-related things *wich would not have fit in diablo, your not gona run into a new town on level 3 of hell..*

So basicly.. my point is. If you dont like diablo, but clame to like divinity.. then you are eather totaly out of your mind, dont really like divinity all that much and dont really dislike diablo all that much, or just dont know what your talking about becaus you never took the time to really see what diablo was. (a classic game such as diablo demands a short perid of cult like obsession in order to be understood)

ahh well=P i still say that Xenogears was the best rpg of all time=P Just love that story

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Well, in fact the background stories for the chars in D1 and D2 / LOD have been written very well, but the richness and depth is never fully shown ...


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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Come on!!!!
You forgot a great game. Might and Magic!!! Also try playing... Gothic! I enjoyed that very much. However, the best game is by far Baldur's Gate I.

AD&D 2nd Edition rules!!!!!!

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Diablo had these, but the whole game took place in a monster populated enviornmet.>>
Yes, and this was Blizzard's priority on this game. Talk less, hack more.
Talking about quests DD closer to BG IWD series, as quests are deeper. There are lots of side-quests, and as you have written, there are quests that do not require combat to solve them.

What makes a game to be a good game. Ballance. You can't play a peacekeeper in Diablo, this game is not meant to do this, but you can try in Fallout, BG, DD.
And I have written you that, it is pointless to compare them. Yes, all theese games are RPGs, some are hack-n-slash, some are more quest related.
Yes, action in D1 was set mostly in dungeons, but D2 had plenty of open air action. - just game design, nothing more.


Those kind of pointless quests acualy offend me, make a game world then fill it with pointless-ness and call it an rpg simply becaus you can waste countless houres doing random tasks for NPCs? bah!>>>

The idea was to create and promote good fighter, develop skill trees. It was combat for the lack of quests. But, anyway there were plenty of good quests in there. And the main story of the game was very well implemented.
(thank you for comment Alrikfassbauer)


The thing to remember is that diablo has never tried to sell it for more than an action-rpg type thing. >>>

It was, and it was excellent action RPG. Right, it was about chopping heads and getting items - Diablos were awesome games, even the best games to date in doing this. Hundreds of unique items, balanced skill trees, balanced characters, hundreds of different mobs - Diablos are RPG-combat heaven!

Diablo is a hack and slash with amazing rpg elements transposed over it. Dungeon siege is a poor rpg with a crappy hack and slash system transposed over it. Divinity is a hack and slash base with rpg-ness built up on it, like diablo. The only differance is divinity is not one really long dungeon, but isntead goes outwards and hence, has room for non dungeon-related things *wich would not have fit in diablo, your not gona run into a new town on level 3 of hell..* >>>>

Disagree
Diablo - excellent RPG in terms of creating and progressing character.
Overall storyline and idea is excellent. Quests, are just ok.
Dungeon Siege - I have no idea, haven't played it.
DD is good RPG in terms of creating and progressing, but chars become too overpowered by the end of the game - this needs to be balanced.
DD is good in terms of quests, but storyline lacks deepness.

And why do you stick to dungeons that much. Diablo was set mostly in dungeons just because of it's hellish design. Remember, it is Diablo, not Farmer, or Child of a neighbourhood. There haven't been large cities in ancient times, only villages, smaller towns, open air and yes caves and dungeons.
There are plenty of dungeons in BG, in PST. And you can't run into lvl 7 of the house, they just didn't build such buildings.


So basicly.. my point is. If you dont like diablo, but clame to like divinity.. then you are eather totaly out of your mind, dont really like divinity all that much and dont really dislike diablo all that much, or just dont know what your talking about becaus you never took the time to really see what diablo was. (a classic game such as diablo demands a short perid of cult like obsession in order to be understood)>>>>

Basically you just miss the point. I like Diablos and I like DD and I like BG and I love PST. And I am glad to see that theese games are different. They should be different.

To finalize this. I found interesting things in all above mentioned games and enjoyed them. You are trying to put all of them into one line and this is wrong. If you didn't like Diablo, don't play it. If you like quests - play BG.
And about DD. What will be stronger, your dislike of dungeons and hack-n-slash or your simpathy to numerour quests in it ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"Endure. In enduring, grow strong." -Githzerai adage.
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well, nice list <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

but you forgot one outstandig RPG: Betrayal at Krondor !!

It has got a deep storyline, a nice tactical combat system and even though it is almost 10 years I would always start to play it again.

(The two sequels "Betrayal at Antaris" and "Return to Krondor" are not worth mentioning)


das ist kein Wolf, sondern ein Sparschwein
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I think Diablo is not exactly a Role playing game. Maybe there is a lot of fun killing beasts but without quests and riddles it is pointless to call it RPG. Fantasy world doesnt make a game rpg. I know there are a lot of people who play this crap so it must be sth good. I played Diablo I and II as well. None of them make me excited. It is because i dont like huge dangeons full of enemies all the time. It is very boring...


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Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Planescape Torment
Jagged Alliance 1
Jagged Alliance 2 <-- how can anyone forget one of the greatest game!!
Jagged Alliance unfinished business
Baldur's Gate
Neverwinter nights
Wizardry 8
Final Fantasy 7

Not forgetting one of my fav
Revenant
I must mention this.. i am dying to have one of the developer bringing in a game with the game formula.. i love the way the battles were done.. real time with some simple street fighter combo attacks thrown in!!!

Magnificent!!!!


ps: i HATE icewind dale.. :P

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How could you all forget Arcanum. This one is my personal favourite.
I also like Morrowind, NWN and Diablo 1 & 2.

I didn't like BG 1 (sorry if i have offended all you BG enthusiasts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

Last edited by FrunkHelm; 23/05/03 12:47 PM.

Its FrunkHelm! The Nerevarine! Free the slaves! Arcanum - Probably the best RPG ever!
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We've all fogotten one of the greatest RPG series!

Quest for Glory!

This had classes and attributes and skills and food and sleep and side-missions and wandering monsters and sometimes a time limit and it all inter-related into the greater plot. Each episode overlapped with at least one other as well.

If it weren't for the extremely out-dated combat system, I'd be playing it right now! (That's a lie. I'd still be here getting my Internet fix.)

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There is also another game called Kings Quests: Mask of eternity. But it was the heaven of bugs. SIERRA (you know)!

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Konstantinos

Then we come back again to definition of RPG.
RPG's essential part is role-playing your own or computer generated character. That meens that during course of his life his attributes improve.

This has hothing to deal with fantasy world and also with isometric perspective games. RPG can easily be sci-fi, FPS or third person shooter.

So, I can say that many such different games all belong to RPG genre:
DeusEx, Heretic2 - btw. nobody mentioned theese great games <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,
IWD, PST, Diablo, DD, DAOC, EQ, Morrowind, gothic, fallout.
Even Warcraft 3 now has elements of RPG as heroes can acquire lvls and new abilities.

If you seek to see more or less complete list of RPG's to date go here, at gamespot/rpgs.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg.html


"Endure. In enduring, grow strong." -Githzerai adage.
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