Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: flixerflax] #366300
22/07/09 08:03 PM
22/07/09 08:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 136
Va, USA
SheaOhmsford Offline
member
SheaOhmsford  Offline
member

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 136
Va, USA
Originally Posted by flixerflax
Agreed. Fighters don't take turns during combat. And non-turned-based does not equal "mindless".


LOL I meant mindless from a computer/AI standpoint...not person. Point, click, next target, rinse/repeat...not that there isn't human strategy involved.


Is reality just a fantasy?
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swalnak] #366307
22/07/09 08:42 PM
22/07/09 08:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588
Netherlands
Myrthos Offline
addict
Myrthos  Offline
addict

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588
Netherlands
Originally Posted by swalnak
Is it viable to play a mage with out relying on pets?

Divinity 2 is classless. I'm not sure how you are able to play as a mage. Maybe by restricting yourself to a limited number of skills and limiting yourself in your choice of weapons?


See me @ The Locus Inn & RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: Myrthos] #366315
22/07/09 09:20 PM
22/07/09 09:20 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 680
Wandering
flixerflax Offline

addict
flixerflax  Offline

addict

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 680
Wandering
Originally Posted by SheaOhmsford
LOL I meant mindless from a computer/AI standpoint...not person. Point, click, next target, rinse/repeat...not that there isn't human strategy involved.


Err...well, with each atttempted attack, the computer is still calculating your chance to get hit based on your armor, the enemies attack rating, and all these other factors right? So what's the difference if it happens fluidly and all at once rather than this awkward, halting, one-after-another method? Actually I'm sure there's more going on with turn-based, I just despise the way it jerks you out of the game (not being a PnP roleplayer, I can do without any semblance of dice-rolling in my computer games, thank you very much). smile

Originally Posted by Myrthos
Divinity 2 is classless. I'm not sure how you are able to play as a mage. Maybe by restricting yourself to a limited number of skills and limiting yourself in your choice of weapons?


I'm not sure I like it being classless. Don't get me wrong, I love the open skill system that we've had since the first Divinity. But in the first game the classes had different propensities toward magic or fighting, and I liked that. I just hope I can at least customize my char to look like a mage so that when he becomes one he doesn't just look exactly like that same spiky blond knight we've seen in all the videos.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: Myrthos] #366323
22/07/09 09:51 PM
22/07/09 09:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada
Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

Larian Studios

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada

Wouldn't you pretty much have to restrict yourself to a limited number of skills and weapons in any case? Even though the game doesn't force you into any specific builds, practically you are going to have do some specialization, either due to playstyle preference or lack of stat/skill points.

I believe Swalnak wishes to know if magic can be used as the primary combat skill, without having to rely on summoned beings or your creature either for protection or to do the majority of the damage.


It has been mentioned that stats, skills and equipment can all influence each other, and there are secondary stats based on the primary ones. Even without class differences from the start, proficiency between magic and conventional combat should start changing as you develop your character. If body type is selectable or changeable that hasn't been mentioned yet, that I recall, but at least equipment-wise you should be able to make appropriate selections.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: SheaOhmsford] #366332
22/07/09 10:19 PM
22/07/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
veteran
AlrikFassbauer  Offline
veteran
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
Originally Posted by SheaOhmsford
IMHO, when the computer goes through the progression of dice rolls, skill checks, saves, etc, then there is an action performed, sequentially for each character and MOB, then starts over again, rather than all characters mindlessly bashing away at the same time, then that is turn-based. The fact that it pauses is irrelevant. This just makes it easier to coordinate each turn.


No. The "feel" is a totally different one. If you are sensitive enough, you can feel it as well.

You can sense it if developers had turn-based combat in mind and developed the game to meet this concept.

My prime example for this is still the NLT - this is he series of gameas against which I measure everything else.

The closest thing to this is still TOEE to me.


Pause is just ... a stopgap to me.

With Drakensang the pause is even worse that it is internally indeed a turn-based game. Many gamers I know have expressed their lack of understanding to just put a pause function to a game that's internally turn-based. They wanted *real* turn-based combat instead, like in the NLT.




When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #366338
23/07/09 02:09 AM
23/07/09 02:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 680
Wandering
flixerflax Offline

addict
flixerflax  Offline

addict

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 680
Wandering
In regards to the new game being less clicky and combat being easier than the first Div: I'm not buying it. In the first game you could just click once and your character would attack. No targeting, no dodging and moving around with the left hand while frantically scanning around for enemies on your periphery with the mouse. In principle I just fail to see how combat in an OTS game that requires both hands just to move and look around could be easier than an isometric one. Having a mouse cursor during battle is an incredible advantage that will be lost in the new game.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: flixerflax] #366418
23/07/09 11:25 AM
23/07/09 11:25 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 180
frenki Offline
member
frenki  Offline
member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 180
Third Person and Mouse-Cursor are not mutual exclusive. Ever played Age Of Conan? Or WoW? Or KOTOR? It's doable but horrible. I prefer the Non-Cursor Aproach like Gothic, Deus Ex or Thief.

I sure hope div 2 does not have some clunky, awkward MMO-Controls only to use a mousecursor.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #366547
23/07/09 02:23 PM
23/07/09 02:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 349
swordscythe Offline
enthusiast
swordscythe  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 349
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
No. The "feel" is a totally different one. If you are sensitive enough, you can feel it as well.

You can sense it if developers had turn-based combat in mind and developed the game to meet this concept.

My prime example for this is still the NLT - this is he series of gameas against which I measure everything else.

The closest thing to this is still TOEE to me.


Pause is just ... a stopgap to me.

With Drakensang the pause is even worse that it is internally indeed a turn-based game. Many gamers I know have expressed their lack of understanding to just put a pause function to a game that's internally turn-based. They wanted *real* turn-based combat instead, like in the NLT.


Hope I don't come off as ignorant here - but what does NLT mean?
I also don't understand what the quarrel is with auto-pause... you can turn it off.. you can opt to not pause the game, and it still remains playable for the most part...

Personally, I hate combat systems like i.e. Final Fantasy had. I felt Drakensang had the best turn-based combat system I've seen - though I'll grant that without the spot-on animations, it would've been much less. It was too static though. Turn-based combat is necessary in PnP... but if you do it in PC games, you're basically just clinging to a primitive tradition. At least, that's how I see it. Like putting your water in your washer and washing it in there by hand instead of turning it on. Either you don't use the machine, or you use it. Eventually, you're gonna have to adapt.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swordscythe] #366562
23/07/09 02:46 PM
23/07/09 02:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
veteran
AlrikFassbauer  Offline
veteran
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
NLT = Nordlandtrilogie, in the English speaking realms known as the "Realms Of Arcania" Trilogy.

By the way, I have played quite a lot of Age of Wonders, and HOMM and Civilization are also games with turn-based combat.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: frenki] #366574
23/07/09 02:57 PM
23/07/09 02:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada
Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

Larian Studios

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada

I sure hope div 2 does not have some clunky, awkward MMO-Controls only to use a mousecursor.

A mouse cursor is only present when it is required (when the inventory is open, etc), not during combat or when exploring.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: Raze] #366615
23/07/09 04:02 PM
23/07/09 04:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 25
swalnak Offline
apprentice
swalnak  Offline
apprentice

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 25
Turn-based combat is necessary in PnP... but if you do it in PC games, you're basically just clinging to a primitive tradition.

Regarding my initial post (including creature/summons part); if you have a party, turn-based is necessary in order to have direct control rather than delegate some members to a party AI.
Why do I want direct control?

I could want to play a game, rather than watch it play itself.
I could also be better at making decisions than the AI. D2:ED isn't out yet, but games with party AI have been released. Unless giving commands fast is better than giving the right commands for the situation (real-time versus turn-based), experience indicates HI is better than AI.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swalnak] #366669
23/07/09 05:40 PM
23/07/09 05:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada
Raze Offline

Larian Studios
Raze  Offline

Larian Studios

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 27,952
Canada

Party AI can be 'good enough', though, in some circumstances. If you can command the party as a whole to attack a specific target, and then fine tune commands as required, then a real-time-with-pause type system can work fine. Melee warriors do not need a lot of babysitting if there are reasonable options or presets for target selection, etc, once their initial target is defeated. Archers can be a problem if they attack distant opponents and draw them into the fight, but that can be mitigated by how you approach a target, and the position you attack from. As long as there is only one mage in a party, you can select that character to control directly (I don't think I've played a game yet that had a good AI for magic use, or anywhere near the customization options to configure a reasonable behavior in most situations).

For larger parties (about 5 or more) or multiple mages / archers, I would prefer a turn based system. With predominantly melee parties, it is not that hard to implement an adequate AI.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swalnak] #366692
23/07/09 06:24 PM
23/07/09 06:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
veteran
AlrikFassbauer  Offline
veteran
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
Originally Posted by swalnak
Turn-based combat is necessary in PnP... but if you do it in PC games, you're basically just clinging to a primitive tradition.


So you're a member of that "action generation" which destroys games like Chess ?


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #366694
23/07/09 06:24 PM
23/07/09 06:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 63
Czech republic
Farflame Offline
journeyman
Farflame  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 63
Czech republic
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
With Drakensang the pause is even worse that it is internally indeed a turn-based game. Many gamers I know have expressed their lack of understanding to just put a pause function to a game that's internally turn-based. They wanted *real* turn-based combat instead, like in the NLT.


Actions are calculated in turn-base mode (ala TDE rules), but moving is real-time. IMHO nothing wrong with it. I like turn-based strategies, but in RPGs I prefer this combat system to clear turn-base. Real-time tactical fights ala BG or Drakensang have stronger feeling as "epic and dangerous battles with monsters" - you try something but they also act.

As I wrote Drakensang and BG1/2 have the best combat system of all RPGs from last years. Its a strong point of many party-based RPGs.


Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: Farflame] #366696
23/07/09 06:30 PM
23/07/09 06:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
veteran
AlrikFassbauer  Offline
veteran
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
I don't have the feeling as if real-time fights tacked with a Pause on "feel" like what I have learned as my personal turn-based optimum.

The NLT games, for example, rather felt like Chess. That's why I love them. It gives me much time to think. I can playn. I must use my brain, actually.

In BG1, it rather feels like ... well, in the NLT the characters are doing actions one after the other, but in BG1 vit felt like each group was acting as a group, rather, than like one after the other one.

I think that's called "phased combat", butI sometimes mix the terms.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #366704
23/07/09 06:47 PM
23/07/09 06:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 25
swalnak Offline
apprentice
swalnak  Offline
apprentice

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 25
I was quoting swordscythe. The rest of my post was actually pointing out the advantages of turn-based battle systems.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swalnak] #366780
23/07/09 10:40 PM
23/07/09 10:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 457
Montrťal
Rythok Offline
addict
Rythok  Offline
addict

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 457
Montrťal
I don't understand all this arguing about turn-based and real-time gameplay. They both offer a different experience and none is "better" than the other. It all comes down to what you prefer. Turn-based gameplay usually involves more thinking and planning. Real-time gameplay requires faster thinking and better reflexes. Real-time with pause is sort of the middle ground, if you want action-packed scenes with multiple characters controlled by the user but still want it to require planning and thinking, it's a good gameplay choice.

Furthermore, at the risk of sounding offensive, I believe it is wrong to put people in groups like "the action generation" and say that it destroys old classics. People have the right the share their opinion, and there are definitely some without the patience to enjoy chess or other slower games with turn-based gameplay. It is their right to hope and wish for things to be real-time and more action packed. There is nothing wrong with not liking something, but there is something wrong with placing people in groups saying they destroy games like chess. But to be fair, calling turn-based gameplay a primitive tradition is also wrong. As long as there are people that enjoy things, there is a place for said things.


Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo
"Everything I encounter serves as the perfection of wisdom that leads to enlightenment."
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: Rythok] #366886
24/07/09 08:30 AM
24/07/09 08:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 349
swordscythe Offline
enthusiast
swordscythe  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 349
but I don't see what advantage turn-based offers over a real-time system with pause button and action queueing, even when you're partying up. You can think and strategize just as much.

I just don't see the immersion in seeing a whole party pop out of your main char at the beginning of a fight, after which they all just stand there dancing until it's their time to... make a feeble hit, and that giant lumbering beast manages to dodge it. That's the time for me to check my watch and delete that demo.

The only issue with it is that there are precious little non-turn-based party RPG's, so it's hard to compare. But in terms of single player, I think it's a done deal by now.

I also don't see how real-time combat makes a game a *insert negative connotation* action-RPG. Because the combat isn't boring? If that makes an RPG an action RPG, I'm game for those.

Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: swordscythe] #367142
24/07/09 01:21 PM
24/07/09 01:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
veteran
AlrikFassbauer  Offline
veteran
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,700
Originally Posted by swordscythe
I just don't see the immersion in seeing a whole party pop out of your main char at the beginning of a fight, after which they all just stand there dancing until it's their time to...


If you want to have fights as being part of the immersion, then no, then this doesn't make much sense to you.

In the NLT, for example, the gameplay - the prsented graphics and everything - where totally diufferent during fight siituation.

Which means that this game series distinguished between fight sitiations and non-fight situations.

The non-fight situations were the ones which were meant to be immersive,

whereas the fight situations wre considered as kind of a "step back and consder everything" kind of approach.

Combat in the NLT wasn't meant to be immersive at all. It was meant to be a purely tactical game in the tradition of Chess.

In "modern" games, especially in action games, fighting and combat is nothing but part of the gameplay. There actually is no "stepping back", but it all is one, continuous part.

For example Blizzard's Action-RPGS : There is no thing like stepping back, and considering your options. Except when you call the game's menu, which is kind of a realtime-with-pause kind of approach as well.

In action RPGs, which have been highly influencial on the whole RPG genre as such - it's even so that NO current RPG is without the phrase "action" within its description ! - , combat has so much become part of the gameplay, that the gameplay without the combat is nothing. Try to imagine Blizzard's games without combat. And what have you got ?

Plus, the "action" element is so much embedded into the gameplay that any kind of "steppinbg back" is not considered for / involved in the gameplay at all. It's ot about "looking at the scenery and consider your options", but instead "be prepared, rush in, and try your best".

I don't know how I could put this into words, but strategy in the waa I know it from the NLT isn't considered to be wanted in "modern" games, or otherwise it would be included.

To me, combat where I'm not forced to actually think about my game - and the options available for the party - like in Chess is boring.

To me, it's just like ... as if the game designers try hard to make people who do not wish to go into too detailed thinking enjoy a game.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Question about combat controls.. ? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #373759
03/08/09 06:03 PM
03/08/09 06:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 314
Belgium
dwelfusius Offline OP

enthusiast
dwelfusius  Offline OP

enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 314
Belgium
oh dear, when I hear there will be no mouse present while fighting I can only conclude it will be this horrible WASD dodge/attack control system..If thats the case they lost a fan, but hey, I'll see it when i get it..

but still, DD is my favourite game partially because I love the controls, and I don't understand why fix something that isn't broken



"Dwelfusius | Were-axlotl of Original Sin"

Hardcorus RPGus PCus Extremus
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Bvs, ForkTong, Larian_QA, Lar_q, Lynn, Macbeth, Raze 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2