Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Divinity 2: RANT!!!

Omg wall of text :-/

To be honest i was disappointed by Divinity 2. But I guess it's not because the game is bad in itself, but because i was expecting too much from it. I really thought it would be mixing an excellent RPG + elements from Drakan (the dragon). The dragon part is, imho, a joke. However the RPG is pretty cool, but nothing exceptionnal. Seems to me like an Oblivion with a better 3rd Person camera.

Oh come on, don`t compare good RPGs to Oblivion...

Finally.
Somebody but me thinks that

the first post that was about the rant, was mainly complaining about the continiusly delaying of the game from the international market.
thogh it was an essential rant for the game prosperety and life span on the shelf, most of you (on the first page at least) ignored the main issue, and turned it to a different side issue.

most of you complained that computer games alweys come in the international, and you gota wait for a lesser quality national version (germany, france and other countrys).
the fact DIV2 came out first hand in germany is convinient for you who live in german.

but the major issue was about the lack of international version.
having the needs to fix the game so it would fit other countrys takes time.
but frankly, you- larian studios, running out of time with Div2. the more the game being delayed, the more games it has to fight to stand on top and return the invastment. and yes, the international version is the $$$ you were looking for.

the reason why Div2 is running out of time is because while other games keep geting upgraded with better graphic and game play mechanics, Div2 remain a 2008 (if im not wrong) graphic quality game.
.. and no multiplayer version to keep it alive so far.

it's a shame, really. i was waiting for DIV2 for a long long time. even thought to order it specialy from larian company itself when it would've been out. but now i'd consider other, newer games with better graphic.

the worse part is, thogh i dont do it myself, the "international opinion" about good games that lose their quality stand in the category of "its good enough for me to play, but not good enough for me to buy". and illigaly downloaded through turrents.

i just hope larian will realise that and distribute the game in due time.

Again: this is not Larian's call

not larian's call to deside when the game comes out? : \

Thats Correct!

lol oblivion was terrible

Unfortunately, delays are normal in game development. I've seen mention of a few high profile games in the last couple months having their releases pushed back, even if an exact date had been stated, rather than just a general time frame.

Most RPG fans value story and gameplay above graphics (except action RPGs, which lack substance and need to make up for it with cosmetics). While magazines and some websites may score lower for 'last year' quality graphics, I don't see that as being Larian's biggest potential problem.

The difference between this year's graphics and last year are not really that great any more, especially given the prevalence and expected longevity of the XBox and its graphics limits.

Many story based RPGs do just fine without multi-player to keep them alive. If some form of multi-player gets added to D2:ED it would be a minor enhancement IMNSHO, nice to play around with a bit, but I don't know anyone that could match my schedule consistently enough to finish a 50 hour game.
I think modding tools would be better at keeping the game alive than multi-player.


If graphics are a primary feature for you, then by all means buy newer games with more eye candy.

Thieves use many excuses to justify not paying for things, almost all of which are completely bogus. What any person with any integrity does when they don't think a game is worth the current price is to wait for a sale or a budget re-release a year or two later.


I don't think Larian is/was unaware of any of the problems a delay could cause. The release date is up to the publisher, which has been officially announced as during the holidays (and unofficially listed a couple places as January 5th).

Bah! RPG-snobbery again. You find ARPG's repetitive and boring, ok. But Diablo II looks like a pile of mud on my monitor and yet it STILL gets more replay overall! You just don't get a kick out of building and leveling a character. Tearing through mobs of enemies, finding great loot, assigning skill and stat points, climbing ever higher so that you can vanquish more foes... I don't think "I want to experience that story again" (well maybe if its been a while), instead I think, "I want to build a Druid who specializes in elemental skills and can wear such and such equipment."

ARPG's don't lack substance, they just lack substance you want, like dialogue, intrigue and complex plotting and characters. They activate different pleasure centers in the brain. I don't know if you expected ARPG's to stand shoulder to shoulder with the RPG's you love and were disappointed, or what. There's a growing disconnect between the two types...I don't even think they're on the spectrum sometimes, you see this as RPG fans like you by default avoid any RPG with the word "action" in its description, while others bash The Witcher for being far too limiting with skills and equipment (completely missing the point of the game). Still, the best games IMO blur the lines between the two...

Graphics is dead bottom as a selling point, agreed. That's why D1 and D2, Divinity, Torment, and others are always installed on my comp, while Oblivion, Rise of the Argonauts, and Fable get the axe. The latter ones look great but suck. But don't just merge the love for ARPG's with brainless love of fancy graphics - the two do not go hand in hand.

But all things you mentioned are already contained in most RPG. Its even contained in some FPSs nowadays so its not some original or extraordinary stuff related to this genre. The fact is that RPGs offer this and more - deeper and more interesting world, much more interesting NPCs, dialogue, story, non-combat skills, deeper and more intricate quests etc. So Raze is basically right. A-RPGs usually lacks really significant or original substance compared to (good) RPGs. Of course it doesnt mean all A-RPGs are bad or completely without a point. Some can be fun, some can be very fun, addictive or relaxing, but dont try to pretend they offer content of similar level as RPGs. Its not true.



If they say so they completely missed the point of the game (not developers). Witcher is not any "standard-fare leveling" game with rich loot. It was meant to be game about Witcher and only Witcher (of course its some sort of limitation to present story of one predefined character) and so it is. Its not a game for everyone. If you are into "diablo stuff" or dont like Witcher character, you probably wont have much interest in this game.

Trying to pretend they have the same level of content? Where did I say that?

Yes, skills and equipment are present in all RPG's and many games. Wow. I was trying to convey the focus of ARPG's and what makes them shine when they're done right. "Action" shouldn't just be a word that gets tacked onto 'bad' RPG's as a way to indicate that it's boring and not fun.


But look at how equipment and skill-based Diablo II (the gold standard for ARPG's) or it's clones (Titan Quest, Sacred) are. Huge lists of unique items, set items, runes and charms and gems and jewels to socket, endless ways to craft items with the Horadric Cube or something similar. Hacks and editors galore that you create items and edit them to get skills from other classes and combine with your own. I don't play FPS so maybe they do have that level of development.

I like story, plot, dialogue and characterization. I would rank The Witcher, Jade Empire, Torment, over any action RPG if they were on the same list. These games just don't need to focus on rich skill systems or endless successions of super-armor and weapons, cause they're doing something else - engaging you in a story and bringing you into a world.

Of course Raze is basically right. I'm just making a case for a too much-maligned genre (hey, this thread does have 'RANT' in the title after all)

Raze, to my opinion, graphic is as much importent to the game as the story line and game play. good games contain it all + good OST with bass.
and any one who preffer playing classic rpgs only for the storyline and game play- doesn't know what his missing.

examples to rpg game with good graphic: (this one im playing is mmo, but its all the same)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2009/09/os681_perfectworld_580.jpg
http://vaultmedia.ign.com/rpgvault/image/article/896/896976/perfectworld08080701a_1218076005.jpg
http://static.mmohub.org/game/perfect-world/images/screenshots/screen/perfect-world-8.jpg

and i agree. graphic isnt larian's biggest potential problem. in fact larian's "level of graphic" is fair and reasonable. unlike some games i know that looks like they only work on dos.
any way, i just hope that they will keep upgrading it. (hey, even wow's graphics got upgraded when blizzard released their third expansion)

now, im not sure about the difference between this year and last year's graphics.. all i know is that companys that use graphic engine's just install improvments to them. like light reflection on cave walls.
unlike major intallment such as frontal image of art+space, like watching a forest from afar,and how realistic it looks.

you could compare what you said to dark messiah, and it's multiplayer, which was a minor enhancement.
and i compare it to dungeon siege 1, with its multiplayer, which kept me playing that game another year or so.
i guess its an issue of taste


heh, about the thieves comment. ok. so their thives. wont change the fact that any one with bit torrent or utorrent (etc..) illigaly download games. and thats like 70% of the gamers. 20% never heard about torrents, and only 10% deside to buy it propper.
the thives see free way to get a game and they do that. its not fair to the game makers and is the future doom to the game industry, that already geting bankrupted unless they make online P2P games (like counter strike or monthly fee mmorpgs..or free mmorpg with inside cash shops)
but even if they steal games. some games are worth paying for, so they buy them.

and yea, there are many reasons why to delay poblishing. like avoiding clash's with more promissing games (like when harry potter been delayed, all the other movies got delayed too), or when it will make more money in holydays evening
but the whole ranting is about the overdue of the delaying.

Flixerflax;
There was no snobbery involved, or actually any opinion intended in what I said (though it would have been more accurate to say that action RPGs lack depth, rather than lack substance). Graphics do tend to be more of a main feature in action RPGs, compared to story based RPGs (though not as central as in FPS games, for example).

I don't avoid action RPGs by default, or judge them by anything other than whether they are fun to play (perhaps modified a bit by length or price, as with any game), but there needs to be something more than just a weapon / skill upgrade cycle to keep my interest.


Thirion;
Better graphics are of course more desirable, but when judging a game, I just don't put much weight on that. I have played a few classic RPGs that I missed when they were released, or re-played some that I had finished before, and dated graphics don't really bother me. Actually, out-dated controls are more of an issue with me for old games (after playing adventure games with context sensitive mouse cursors, it is really rough going back to some kind of menu for manual action selection every time you want to switch between looking / picking up / talking / etc).

Maybe I'm just the visual equivalent to being tone deaf, but I don't see that any of the screenshots you linked to were significantly better than D2:ED's graphics. However, if Larian takes advantage of the release delay, patches or subsequent addons (if any) to improve the graphics, or individual aspects, then great.

I have to admit, I'm totally with Flix regarding ARPGs. The fact that they are not 'true' RPGs at all in no way stops them from being excellent games in their own right. They just suffer from being poorly labeled in the first place is all.

I've spent a lot of hours on both types of game and I have no doubt I will again. Both have their charms

It's puzzling that no one has mentioned jRPGs yet!

It's funny how the concept of a 'true ' RPG has changed over the years... nowadays when people refer to 'true' RPGs they usually refer to the story-driven ones from say BioWare or Obsidian Entertainment. Back in the 80s/beginning of 90s 'true' RPGs were pure dungeon crawlers like Ultima, Lands of Lore or Gold Box...

Indeed, this is exactly what I meant, Farflame. Strict ARPG fans can't comprehend why most of Geralt's skills are just passive enhancements, that you basically wear the same armor for the whole game, and that you can't carry more than four big weapons at a time. The Witcher doesn't need that stuff, because it does everything else so right...

Imo, graphics from a technial stand point are nice but not the determining factor on whether a game is good or not - be it rpg, actionrpg or full on action.

I finished Drakan a short while back and had a blast with it, despite very aged graphics. I enjoy games like Geneforge and Avernum, which mildly put don't have spectacular graphics.

Gameplay is and will always be king. Graphics are a nice bonus, but a bad game will always be bad - regardless of the graphics.

Btw, why is it I never see "state of the art" in any game? Reviewers love to say that a game looks dated, but rarely offer names of the games that supposedly look good. To be honest - most games look about the same with very minor technical differences. What makes a difference is art direction and the attention spent on that part of the game.

In that regard, art direction can play an important part of setting the mood, which influences how a game is experienced.

For anyone who is a whore to polygon count and extreme texture detail - as if that somehow makes or breaks a game - well I have nothing but a shrug of my shoulders. There are many gaming gems these people will never experience.

-------

With regards to the Witcher and RPGs; It was a great game and very much a role playing game. You played the role as a Witcher. Some people seem to think that RPG automatically involves you remaking yourself into a game character - and that simply isn't true. Role playing means you take on the role of a particular character in a game world and play *their* role. If it so happens that a game offers enough freedom that you can put your own spin on things - that's great, but not necessary to qualify as an RPG.

Sorry, had to throw in my 2 cents on that one too :P

I don't really think in RPG terms. There are some things I want in a game, mostly it being a medieval-type fantasy setting, 3rd person perspective, character creation, good story, good combat system, good skill system, humor, good voice acting and NPC depth, freedom to make certain choices... Not all elements have to be included for me to like a game. A game can even have only one of these; if it's done well, I may love it.

Look at the Legacy of Kain games, which I loved (especially Defiance)... Look at Urban Chaos, at Warcraft II, etc.

RPG's definitely don't have a monopoly on being games worth playing. There are awful RPG's that are not ARPG's. However, bad ARPG's usually sell a lot more copies than bad 'real' RPG's.

Hey, you just summed up Divinity!