Larian Studios Forums Divine Divinity (English) General Please tell me this is a mistake...

You make a good point. Make no mistake, I prefer set classes. I think of them as different flavors. You really get a feeling of how to play a class when you are forced to see the game through their eyes, their set of abilities.

BUT, when a game has NO classes, to me it is much more condusive to hybrids and experimentation.

Lol, for the billonth time, I don't mind any of this whatsoever. Just let me be able to make my little cookie-cutter straight forward mages and warriors along with everyone elses jacks of all trade.

On another note, I think an RPG should definatly reward specialization. Make it so only pure classes have access to the highest skills of the discipline. Makes plenty of sense. How would a warrior/mage ever be as good as a guy who literally sleeps with his sword and can clean it in the dark while hanging upside down? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Why would he ever be as good as a guy like Zandalor who has obviously spent his entire life pouring over tomes to learn the arcane arts?

Well, it's not absolutely necessary to branch out in Divine Divinity IMO, but it makes the fighting a lot easier for certain playing styles. On the other hand, I think that DD is a game that "encourages" branching out or "multiclassing" in the traditional RPG sense, so I think its classes are somewhat more fluid than other RPGs. Still, I see nothing that in DD that "requires" skill diversification.

I've read posts Re: Josephina and Imps that some warriors killed them in 3 or 4 sword slashes, and barely got hit because they had around 1400 hitpoints because of charms. Now, there isn't anything in that which calls for investing skillpoints outside of the warrior class. In my personal opinion the warrior class is already pretty overpowered. Saying that it's underpowered is just... wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, if DD2 was to make the classes more clearly defined, then I'd like to see more classes. For example clerics, holy warriors, paladins, etc. who would be different and make the class system more fun. But honestly that is a lot more work for Larian, and if their current system works fine, then why change? I'd rather see better balancing of skills, better graphical implementation of different weapons/armors and an awesome storyline (without a weak ending) than more class definition. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Again, its just me being really really picky. I don't want a mage that has to pick locks. Ever. Never in his life UNLESS its by magical means (like Morrowind). It has nothing to do with who is over powered, just me being very critical (Perhaps too critical, but whos to say?)

And I agree, more classes would be an absolute must if you want to have less multiclassing. But I disagree with you about the graphics thing. And it seems Larian does too. In Riftrunner, they said that they are focusing more on the gameplay than a huge graphical overhaul. Honestly, I think graphics in RPGs should be secondary to gameplay, balance, combat/spell systems, AI, story, etc. Hell if DD2 was a MUDD and had all that, I'd buy it in a second!

But then again you're talking to a guy who is willing to play 2d hex based wargames all day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />.

Normally I would agree with you about CRPG graphics, because character design, storyline, combat system, quests, and dialogue are indeed more important. But at the same time, I feel so gimped by those gorgeous looking action games with lovely graphics. Why are CRPGs and strategy games the last to catch up in the graphics department? I guess because roleplay and strategy enthusiasts are looking for more than just graphics, but still, it would be nice to see some graphical upgrades in DD2.

Then there are also issues that come up as far as more feature implemention, because they might require more graphically. Take for example horses and mounts: I want them, I know some other people want them, but at the same time it might be difficult to implement graphically. The imp riders were interesting, because those spiders were basically mounts, but to implement this feature for player characters might be difficult. Not to mention rule ambiguities: would enemies target the horses or would they target the character?

Frankly, my main philosophy when it comes to CRPGs is not less details and less customization, but more detail and more customization -- in fact, the more, the better. That is why I applaud Larian for letting you customize your character's stats, skills, and certain other subtle but important things like portraits and gender. If they made character classes more rigid and less customizable, the game might not be nearly as cool since after you play the warrior, mage and surviro (3 times), you've seen it all. With different skill combinations though, you can play one single class (survivor) nearly indefinitely.

Well, you are right about that. With set classes, there is a finite number of ways to play a character. But on the flip-side, Sometimes it seems with games like DD that since you're allowed to try anything with any character that you don't have a reason to replay. With my warrior, I've tried all the mage spells and seen how they work. In a game with set classes, I'd have to actully level a mage to 24 to see all the spells. Just different tastes really.

Customazation is good as long as it isn't required (broken friggin record! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />) More detail is always a good thing, but you have to balance it with the learning curve. A very detailed game is often one that takes awhile to learn how to play. No complaints about that here, but some people favor pick up and play games.

This has been a very interesting almost real time conversation we've had. I'm glad that you're a person who can disagree about a video game and discuss things in an intelligent way. Usually video game forums are full of children and fanboys/girls. This forum is a pleasant surprise. Hell, I'm used to posting and having a bunch of kids tell me that I'm flat out wrong and that my opinions on games suck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Now I'm off to watch the Spurs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

Heh, thanks. I can generally have a very calm discussions about games. I only become near fanatical about politics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

Classes: I don't mind if they become more rigid, because I've played D&D for a long time. I also don't mind if they stay the way they are, because I think DD is one of the most superb CRPGs I've come across. I trust Larian's judgment on this one.

I like both methods, but only at their extremes.

I like that in Diablo II you had to select class-specific skills. You could play the game 7 times and they would show you 7 completely different aspects of the game.

I like that in Castle of the Winds and Dungeon Seige you had no classes, just attributes that specialised your character. You could create your own classes by training particular skills. It was still possible to play any extreme (warrior, mage, etc.). The problem in this (as I have in Divine Divinity) is that some skills are too useful to ignore (such as Identify) and trying to discipline yourself not to use them can be difficult.

I agree that any one class should be able to complete the game. If you do have classes, then some sections of the game should become totally inaccessable to the other classes. Only a warrior can join the Warrior's Guild, a thief the Thieves Guild, a wizard the Wizard's Guild, and a healer, the Healer's Guild. Each Guild provides equal bonuses for attending them and completing their quests. Also, a warrior may become a part-time body guard, a thief can rob houses at night, a wizard can assist in a greater cause, and a healer could gather rare herbs for a mysterious plague. Only these classes gain access to these quests, all providing equal bonuses.

Can you imagine the replay value in that?

Yes, the replay value would be very high and, IMHO, the player's expirience would be much more meaningful. You would be a MAGE. Not some guy in pajamas that thinks daggers are too weak so he uses a claymore and meteorstrike for backup but because he's technically a thief he can also sneak.

And yes, if you pick an extreme, the player should both be limited but also greatly rewarded. Have some parts of the game totally inacessable, but also reward the purist for his or her discipline in sticking to one archetype. Remember how in diablo ii every class had like a level 30 skill that was their "Killer Ap'"? Do the same here.

Have just a few skills that are only available later on to the purist. A pure warrior who has a walking lawnmower ability. A mage that has a "Wail of the Banshee mass instant death" type of spell. A thief...well, I can't think of one for the thief. I don't think thieves belong in single character CRPGs (see my post in the suggestions forum "Two suggestions for a very promising series"), but anyway you get my point.

And to expand on another point you made - some skills are way to good for any class to pass up. I never had much use for Identify. I keep most of my loot that I'm not using un-ID anyway. And when I want something ID'd I just pay the 100 gold.

But I'll say right now that if Aura of Protection didn't exist, I would have never made it this far. Early on I had to skimp on my vitality just to be able to equip better equipment. Aura of protection allowed me to do this without being killed every 2 seconds. It was only in my 20's that I began to put more points in vitality. Now with life drain, frost, and heavy armor, Aura of Protection isn't that big of a deal. But early on I will say that I felt that like I had no choice but to use it - much to my annoyance. I could say the exact thing about having to do alchemy to make restoration potions. It was pretty much mandatory early on. And, you guessed it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, I don't I should have felt that ANY non warrior skills were mandatory.

I played a warrior and didn't take alchemy or any aura spells. I think it's very possible to survive without even putting down your skillpoints in anything but enchant weapons as a warrior. I did it like this from levels 1-15 for a female warrior on hard mode: First, I dumped all my skillpoints into dexterity every time I level up, and use only longbows. Then, I focused on adding more strength so I could do more damage and use battleaxes. I found (by luck) a battleaxe that does mana drain damage as well as averaging over 50 damage per hit, and with restoration I hadn't much use for potions as I could just right click to restore vitality. Granted, I still died a lot, but I also saved often and was careful. Basically, if you multiclass, you don't have to think as much in fights -- but if you choose to never step outside of your own class's skills, you can still survive.

In other words you had to jump through hoops and do tricks just to get buy. There's the problem. You shouldn't have to. Maybe you're playing a different game than I am. You make it sound way too easy. Lets compare notes shall we?

My expirience:

I chose to use sword mastery. All weapon master skils that have a fixed range (like 12+18 etc.) are bugged. I was thinking long term. The swords in the game are far better and more common than axes. The downside was that I was stuck with a short sword until I fought my way to Ars Magicana (which was quite difficult I might add). Bows were out of the question. I never hit anything with them. So consequently I would be forced into melee combat anyway as the enemy approached me.

Now, if ever I fought anything like a skeleton Guardian or Conjuror, I got my [nocando] handed to me. No questions asked. My solution: Guzzle 6 potions when I fought one. It became apparent that I should invest points in alchemy to make restoration potions. That way, I only guzzle 3. All the while I'm trying to increase my strength and dexterity because I want to be able to equip better stuff when I find it.

I walked around for probably 20 levels with under 150 hp. Thats were Aura of Protection helped me not to get slaughtered by every damn orc I met. Why did I have so little hp? Oh I dunno, I wanted to be able equip the platemail and giant sword that I found. In the long run this worked, because after equiping this stuff I'm fine. But I still resent the fact that I had to invest points in all these skills just to make it this far. Don't get me wrong, I'm not short on points or anything, it's just the principle of the thing.

And as far as charms go, I have probably found 3 useful one in all my 30 lvls of playing. I'm waiting until the merchants begin to sell silver and gold ones more often before I put points into enchant.

My troubles can be further contrasted to the mage I played around with. He had absolutely no problems whatsoever. I killed all the boss type enemies in 3 seconds by spamming Meteorstrike as fast as I could. When I got to the mind control camp, it was the same thing. I would kill 6 soldiers in like 3 seconds just by holding ctrl and spamming meteors and lightening bolts.

Casting delays anyone (saved for another thread!)

"All weapon master skils that have a fixed range (like 12+18 etc.) are bugged"

These have been fixed with the 1.34 patch (True Shot is still broke, though).
See Game still buggy, when do the next patch come? for all the gory details.

Yes, I've read that post several times. You sure about that one? Putting points into axe mastery does not show any change to my displayed axe damage. And I'm running 1.34.

Yes, I am sure, at least with a game started after installing the 1.33/1.34 patch. Perhaps it is not fixed in a game started under a previous version. The damage listed in the stats pane does not include the Axe Expertise bonus. If you save before a monster (or group) and keep track of your damage, then re-load, put points into Axe Expertise and kill the same monster(s), you should see a clear jump in damage.

Hmm...I've never played under anything but 1.34, so I'll take your word for it. I don't know how exactly you display a constant damage bonus like on axe mastery, but I do wish it told you it was being applied.

Yeah, I used the character editor to remove 5 points from Axe Expertise and in battle my damage with an axe dropped tremendously. I then kind of figured out that the damage was being applied but it does not tell you in the character information window. It doesn't add any bonus damage from skills like spiritual strike or augment damage either, although if you place your mouse cursor over your damage it shows you a finer breakdown.

axe experty! I'm a thief! Just put them into assassins kiss, vola, dead pray, and u get the pay! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Is that skill actully worth it? I've noticed that even the best daggers do very little damage. So does assasin's kiss coupled with augment damage output enough damage to fight strong enemies effectively? Seems like most "thieves" in DD use bows or other weapons instead of daggers.