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Originally Posted by Dwagginz
Have we used the same version of Steam? Yours sounds completely different to mine.


Please bear in mind that the fact that you have had no problems with Steam doesn't mean thats the case for everybody.

For all you guys that use Steam and have had no problems with it, I'm happy for you and long may your problem free use of Steam continue, and I really mean that.

Because when things do go wrong you'll find out just how useless and uncaring Steam support actually is.

Steam could be a great platform for gamers, and to some extents already is, but what really lets it down is the fact that in more and more cases its being forced on gamers that don't want it.

ALL GAME COMPANIES SHOULD ALLOW THEIR CUSTOMERS TO CHOOSE.

We are the ones handing over the money and when I pay for something it either does exactly what I want the way I want or I dont buy it, thats my right (and yours) as a consumer.

So far, the guys at Larian have proved to be absolutely outstanding with their support and backup and even just the fact that they're on the forums and being involved with their customers should set the standard that other game companies should try to achieve.

They have released DKS for sale from their own online shop, through Steam etc, and a retail version for high street shoppers will/is also available and that gives people the choice. Why on earth would anyone want future releases to be Steam only?


As for any form of DRM, games companies are wasting time, effort and money, it won't stop pirates, EVER.

All the way through from distant history to the present day, code breakers have always outsmarted code makers and any form of DRM is a code.

The only use DRM on games has is for counting the activations of said game, thats it, nothing else, zip. Its a data collection tool.

Don't blame the game devs, its the publishers that insist on it, but once again that means its the legitimate customers that have to put up with the shite these things cause, I often think DRM creates pirates as folks dont want this crap on their PC's.

Its time for the gaming industry to give its head a shake and listen to the people who are handing the money over, US, ME, YOU.

Last edited by Knight Flyer; 04/12/10 05:56 AM.
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You have a choice; Buy a game with Steamworks DRM or don't. That's your choice, and even then games with compulsory Steam(works) DRM forms a minor number of releases.

If a game has to come with DRM, Steam or Impulse would be my first choices. Why? Because I support both systems of delivery and management, and I think they're the way forward for gaming. The only games that are Steam-only tend to be indie releases. You can still buy New Vegas from Direct2Drive or a retail version of it. There's one exception for the PC that I'm aware of, which is F1 2010, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Meh. I've got Dawn of War 2 which uses Steam and Games for Windows Live. DRM just doesn't bother me these days, and it's not worth getting in a fuss about for the most part. Yes, it can cause issues, but so can your audio drivers or your anti-virus. Publishers are waking up a little, though, because it's becoming more common for DRM to be either removed or neutralised by later patches.

Maybe I've just been lucky with regards to DRM, but the number of people who (Usually!) have issues with DRM are dwarfed by the number of people who don't.

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Originally Posted by Setch Dreskar
Listen it doesn't matter, SecuROM is being removed... it was even posted on these forums several times that Larian was going to remove secuROM like they do on all their games.
If that's the case, I'll get the 360 version now, then the PC version, when SecuROM has been removed and there is a sale on for it.

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Originally Posted by 369
Originally Posted by Kein
Originally Posted by 369
Don't worry about the 3 activations limit because Steam only allows 3 copies of the game to be installed on any one user's account.

You're wrong. Steam allows you to install the game as much as you can.
Sorry, I should have been more clear, you are allowed to install and uninstall as much as you want, but you can only have your account (plus games) installed on 3 computers at any one time.


No, you are wrong again.

The Steam copy protection (GEG or just plain ownership check) allows you to install the game on infinite amount of PCs (L4D2, Serious Sam HD remake for ie).

In DKS case it's secuROM and it's 5 activations, not 3. This protection scheme hasn othingto do with Steam.

Originally Posted by Setch Dreskar
Listen it doesn't matter, SecuROM is being removed... it was even posted on these forums several times that Larian was going to remove secuROM like they do on all their games.

Have you read that post carefully? The protection will be removed after 3-4 years.

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Btw, personally, for offline games I prefer secuROM over Steam. Because with secuROM u can just activate the game and play it offline, without starting steam or without Internet connection, but Steam one requires persistent connection to Steam servers.

Oh, and if you think that Steam protection has less disadvantages then you are wrong: sometimes, steam authentication servers does not respond, sometimes, the game just hangs at steam's startup screen and nothing can help; sometimes, it says "the game currently unavailable." Such things happens even for a free games, like ASW!

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Originally Posted by Kein
Btw, personally, for offline games I prefer secuROM over Steam. Because with secuROM u can just totally destroy your own computer, but Steam one requires persistent connection to Steam servers.

Oh, and if you think that Steam protection has less disadvantages then you are wrong: sometimes, steam authentication servers does not respond, sometimes, the game just hangs at steam's startup screen and nothing can help; sometimes, it says "the game currently unavailable." Such things happens even for a free games, like ASW!
Just corrected that for you.

I don't know how to break this to you, but you can run Steam in offline mode as well you know...or am I wrong about that as well? suspicion

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How can you run Steam in REAL offline mode without internet connection? I can't, it says "No internet connection available".

Also, regarding to your fix: I just activated the game here, everything is still ok.

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It depends upon the game; I hear that it is more common for games without multiplayer to not require an internet connection.

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Ah, but don't forget Steam does have some security with it. Valve have said there is a working patch which, if the Steam service ever goes down, will be deployed and I believe it removes the need to connect online.

It's not the best solution, of course, but it's better than nothing.

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You might want to look into what Stardock does with their games like Gal Civ 2. I know it is hard, especially publishers to accept, but maybe consider no DRM and require the game to be registered to get updates or some DLC later on. Stardock did this and while I can't find a sales number article at 2am, I remember reading on IGN years back their Gal Civ 2 sold over a million copies blowing their expectations away. http://forums.galciv2.com/106741 <- in their own words

I do NOT support pirating games but I am realistic about it, the people that want to buy the game are going to buy it, like me. Those who don't or can't afford to buy the game though and pirate it are more than likely not going to buy it, even if they can't get a pirated copy. I think publishers/developers sometimes get caught up in the mentality that every game pirated is a lost sale when, in reality the vast majority of them are probably not. Don't get me wrong, it sucks that you guys/gals don't get 100% of what your hard work deserves, but I really think the one misbehaving means the other 99 must suffer rule is kind of silly.

I think if developers/publishers would start trusting their fans a bit more they might be surprised by the results. Of course that is just my opinion wink

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Originally Posted by Dwagginz
You have a choice; Buy a game with Steamworks DRM or don't. That's your choice, and even then games with compulsory Steam(works) DRM forms a minor number of releases.


Kind of a shitty choice, dont you think?

I'll tell you what it boils down to, its my money and my computer, I spent the dosh and I built it, I'll say what goes on it, not some ott intrusive datadigger like Steam, what I play or how often or for how long is my bussines and so called achievements mean jack, I dont like what Steam offers, I dont want what Steam offers, I play for me, nobody else. If Steam had played fair with me when things went wrong I probably wouldn't feel so strongly, but I still wouldn't have liked being forced to use it. After the way they acted I now know I can trust them about as far as I could dropkick a Range Rover, I'll have nothing more to do with them.

As for offline mode, dont make me laugh, do you really believe that?

Check your net traffic while your in so called offline mode, use your heads, how on earth does it know theres patches available when its supposed to be offline?

And said patches are forced upon you whether you want them or not.

As for Fallout NV, you can buy it where ever you like but you still need Steam installed to play it, so where you buy it from also means jack.

As for Valve releasing a patch that will make all games none Steam dependant if Steam goes tits up, bovine cack! are you seriously telling me that you think they would relinquish all that control? Thats even more bullshit. They would sell that control to the highest bidder and that winning bidder would squeeze you for every last penny they could get. And the Steam SSA you agreed to would mean they could do it quite legally too. Theres coffee on the stove, time you woke up and smelled it.

You Steam fans make me laugh, if anyone was forcing you to do something in any other area of your lives, you'd all be screaming blue murder.

I'll leave you with this thought.

A monopoly is never a good thing no matter how well intentioned.

Steams intentions are making money and having total control, so keep feeding the monster if you wish, but it will all end in tears.

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Originally Posted by Kein
How can you run Steam in REAL offline mode without internet connection? I can't, it says "No internet connection available".

Also, regarding to your fix: I just activated the game here, everything is still ok.


I have a laptop that is very rarely ever connected to the internet, and I play all of my single player games on Steam with no internet connection. You just need to play the game at least once when connected to the internet, and from there on out you can play Steam games in single player not connected to the internet. Make sure you log in offline mode.

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Originally Posted by Knight Flyer


As for offline mode, dont make me laugh, do you really believe that?

Check your net traffic while your in so called offline mode, use your heads, how on earth does it know theres patches available when its supposed to be offline?



Believe it? I no for a fact that it works in offline mode. The only way my laptop is connected to the internet is either I plug in an Ethernet cord from a router or I plug in my wireless adapter. Guess what, I play my single player games all the time in offline mode when not connected to the internet.

Originally Posted by Knight Flyer

Steams intentions are making money and having total control, so keep feeding the monster if you wish, but it will all end in tears.


Only speculation on your part. I could say the same exact opposite and it would only be speculation on my part. In other words what you just said there is meaningless, you have no proof or even an example of it happening in the industry.

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What people forget is this is a consumer driven market. Valve and other game distributors depend on us not the other way around. If you don't like Securom, then don't buy it, thats it, you have cast your vote. I myself don't care and most don't. If your so mad, go over to piratebay and yell at the pirates who have caused all the DRM craze in the first place.

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I myself really enjoy steam, some parts of it annoy me like it having to connect to steam every time I play a game. I would much prefer that it just does a single check and than just makes the game run without future checks. But Steam has great sales as in game prices, it is convenient and often my local game stores don't get new copies of PC games for weeks after release if ever at all. Hell I wouldn't be playing Divinity 2 right now if it were not not being sold on Steam.

Much like Securom though there are ways around Steam and one could play the game without ever connecting to Steam.

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Originally Posted by salad10203
What people forget is this is a consumer driven market. Valve and other game distributors depend on us not the other way around. If you don't like Securom, then don't buy it, thats it, you have cast your vote. I myself don't care and most don't. If your so mad, go over to piratebay and yell at the pirates who have caused all the DRM craze in the first place.


The problem is no one knows what the pirated numbers even are, are companies losing 1,000,000 game sales or 100. Is it still an issue or has this just become so ingrained that logic no longer matters. I don't think as I have stated above that most of the pirated downloads would translate into sales if all the pirated copies were unavailable.

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Originally Posted by Tevaul
Originally Posted by salad10203
What people forget is this is a consumer driven market. Valve and other game distributors depend on us not the other way around. If you don't like Securom, then don't buy it, thats it, you have cast your vote. I myself don't care and most don't. If your so mad, go over to piratebay and yell at the pirates who have caused all the DRM craze in the first place.


The problem is no one knows what the pirated numbers even are, are companies losing 1,000,000 game sales or 100. Is it still an issue or has this just become so ingrained that logic no longer matters. I don't think as I have stated above that most of the pirated downloads would translate into sales if all the pirated copies were unavailable.


All I know is several of my friends started to actually buy games for the first time in years during the hay day of Starforce. So many of the popular games protected with Starforce remained uncracked for up to a year that my friends got impatient and started to buy these games.

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Originally Posted by Knight Flyer

Kind of a shitty choice, dont you think?

It's the choice. Steam or no Steam with some games, and it's no different to, say, Sins of a Solar Empire requiring Impulse past a certain update level nor a game requiring SecuROM to run. Steam is just one thing publishers can use, but like Impulse, Valve have made Steam more attractive to both the publisher and the user by making it useful

Originally Posted by Knight Flyer
And said patches are forced upon you whether you want them or not.

No. It has an option to disallow updates.


Originally Posted by Knight Flyer
A monopoly is never a good thing no matter how well intentioned.

Steam is in no danger of becoming a monopolistic entity.

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Knight Flyer, just so you know, there was a Digital Distribution company that was going out of buisness, and Steam bought them up. Guess what Steam did with all of that companies customer accounts and their games? All their accounts got transferred to Steam for free. No company that buys out another company for their accounts is going to charge those customers again for their games, that would be beyond stupid and a huge PR foobar.

Also, patches are not forced, there is an option to turn off automatic updates, has been like that since release day of Steam, same with Offline Mode when not connected to the internet.

Have you even ever used Steam?

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Originally Posted by eisberg
Originally Posted by Tevaul
Originally Posted by salad10203
What people forget is this is a consumer driven market. Valve and other game distributors depend on us not the other way around. If you don't like Securom, then don't buy it, thats it, you have cast your vote. I myself don't care and most don't. If your so mad, go over to piratebay and yell at the pirates who have caused all the DRM craze in the first place.


The problem is no one knows what the pirated numbers even are, are companies losing 1,000,000 game sales or 100. Is it still an issue or has this just become so ingrained that logic no longer matters. I don't think as I have stated above that most of the pirated downloads would translate into sales if all the pirated copies were unavailable.


All I know is several of my friends started to actually buy games for the first time in years during the hay day of Starforce. So many of the popular games protected with Starforce remained uncracked for up to a year that my friends got impatient and started to buy these games.


Than you might want to reconsider your choice of friends. =) Being serious, that is great to hear that it worked for them, but I can toss out a couple of friends that have stopped buying games due to DRM. I myself stopped buying anything with securom in it for a while until I found a way to get around it.

Last edited by Tevaul; 05/12/10 11:42 PM.
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