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The story never really stuck with me after I finished the game, but a couple RP/story elements still continue to annoy me sometime after. I present my list of gripes, but feel free to continue this thread and add your own.

  • What happened to everyone on your island? I always assume at least a couple people were smart enough to run to your tower for shelter. Unfortunately, it looks like only the retarded NPC that wants a book that's worth a skill point is left camping outside. It really doesn't leave anything to the imagination.

    But why is that annoying? One personal reason... I always imagined that with your castle, in our case a battle tower of power, you get all the accoutrements. For instance the chef couple that was outside, Henry and Eleanor, are apparently dead. WTF??? That really through me for a loop. In FoV, your conversation with Ricky confirms that your character knows their fate. I mean seriously, you get a lavish throne room and all you have to eat is conjured dog food and scraps you've pilfered off other people like a beggar!? I really wished Larian removed that part of the conversation or at least added a third dialog option that states they are now in your employ. I like the fantasy that my character has private chefs.
    .
  • Is Rhode dead or just frozen in stone. There's been some debate, but is there anything official? I thought it was anti-climatic. Seriously, there's the big bad enemy, the main nemesis of the plot--Damian and Ygerna; and then there's your arch-nemesis. So, you play through to the end and to find that someone else has gotten her first. I would just like to know, did Larian have something else in mind and simply ran out of time? I would have like the option to at least confront her again, perhaps see what kind of a fight she puts up. She is after all supposed to be the ultimate dragon slayer. Personally, I think that would have satisfied the pugnacious nature of most gamers. I would have like the option to have her constantly chasing my tail like the elusive white whale that can never be caught. The ending in my opinion was quintessential high fantasy and didn't offer any real surprises. So I say, why not put in that tried and true trope of making your archenemy chase after you as the crowd cheers, with everyone ambivalent to her cries for blood, as you hover in the sky and take flight from Aleroth to begin your new adventure?

    If Larian doesn't confirm she's dead, it would be nice to see her in a possible cameo in the next adventure through Rivellon.

Last edited by candlebbq; 08/12/10 05:49 AM.
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That's a good point about the battle tower. Instead of the two potentially useful people we're acquainted with down on the beach, we get a dancer and musician we've never seen before, and the dancer is painful to watch. Also, in FoV, I was left to wonder where Grimm, the body parts vendor, went off to. The game never provided any explanation and my necromancer had nothing to say on the matter. Also I don't see why the waypoint shrine couldn't be repaired once I got one of Aleroth's waypoint shrines to connect with it. I would have preferred "there are no waypoint shrines to travel to at this time" to "Broken Waypoint Shrine" when attempting to use it.

I wanted Rhode to be present at the end of FoV just to imagine the look on her face, especially after her breakdown in our earlier encounter.
Her life was based on a lie, and her order nearly wiped out Rivellon's primary defense against the true threat - effectively working alongside the Black Ring in doing Damien's will.


Will have to see how things pan out in a future installment. I don't want to kill Rhode but I would like to put a boot to Damien's ugly face.

Another concern is with Bellegar in FoV...
He whisked me away multiple times to try, indirectly, to end my quest, and only at the very end did he show reason and offer me a choice in the matter. I didn't really want to follow this obviously evil voice in my head, but Bellegar gave me no choice until that time. Seems criminally careless to let someone open all but the final seal before reasoning with them and presenting a choice. Twice even, since Rhode nearly succeeded as well. That means Bellegar put everything back into place before I arrived in the Academy. On that note, I'd like to know how Rhode got past the rune seal without clues.


There are definitely some puzzlers in the story.

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The issue with Rhode discovering a way in is easy to explain. Its the most common of writing tropes. She simply found an easier way in. The hero always does it the roundabout most difficult way possible. In fact there are plenty of pop culture reference where the hero goes through this arduous quest and the "other guy" simply says "why didn't you just use the backdoor?"

The bellegar issue, is really a non-issue. You can write it off as he's crazy. That's the explanation that the game gives you over-and-over again. But what I did find odd is how he attempts to thwart you only after you've found certain items and not continuously as his powers would allow. It makes sense from a gameplay perspective but not a rational one. But of course, he's crazy. So there you have it.

If you didn't make this choice in the game here's a real spoiler:
You can choose to side with Berhlihn and ignore Bellegar. This actually presents you with a more challenging final battle if you choose him. Now you have to battle both Berhlihn and Ygerna. Unfortunately, he doesn't put up much of a fight. Does that mean you're more powerful than him? If so, why do we even need him or Bellegar. Just go in yourself and lay down some butt whoop.


One thing I did forget is: why can't you leave and fly around? Yes, the guards are oblivious to the fact you can teleport out of the city, so you can ignore them. You have a Dragon Stone. And your runners seem to be able to find resources from the magical land of Infinite Storage Locker. Bellegar can teleport you, so teleporting obviously works. You should be able to fly outside and squeeze in some dragon action that some forum members thought was missing. Perhaps your tower also has a magical force field that prevents you from flying out from it. And if you take it one step farther, why can't we use the front door of the tower. Its like the elevator has been locked down for our protection. But I think this has already been addressed by Larian as not having the resources to flesh out a zone outside of Aleroth.

ADDED:

Grimm is probably a bug. I don't remember clearly, but I think you only get Grimm talk to him. Its one of the easiest ways to tell you're now playing FoV. There are multiple bits of player data that don't transition over to FoV. If you manually sort your inventory like I do, FoV rearranges your inventory. Certain tower flags are reset, such as first encounter dialogs with NPCs, etc. Most of this I believe was to ensure FoV could be played as a standalone. Personally, I think Larian should have dropped the standalone playback for FoV and rewarded people who purchased ED + FoV a bonus by making FoV a DLC patch that converts ED to DKS. That would have allowed them cut development time on standalone and put more time into refining the game.

Last edited by candlebbq; 08/12/10 08:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by candlebbq
Unfortunately, it looks like only the retarded NPC that wants a book that's worth a skill point is left camping outside.


How dare you call Turgoyn, a proud member of the Prancing Seahorse (even of its leading Triumvirate!), retarded? laugh

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Originally Posted by Axel
How dare you call Turgoyn, a proud member of the Prancing Seahorse (even of its leading Triumvirate!), retarded? laugh


I heard drinking kills braincells. He must drink an awful lot. Apparently, like most of their members, or so I hear.

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What you decribed in your post isn't an RP-elements. Not even a little.

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Since everyone else on the beach except Turgoyen is killed, I simply pretend that he is dead as well and keep the book for myself. He doesn't seem to notice or care that the island is surrounded by toxic fog, or that everyone else from the ship is dead, so why should I care about giving him his book? Also, what happened to Narcissus, the head of the Prancing Seahorse, according to Turgoyen? Was he eaten by undead?


I think that the island going all toxic was a casualty of not having enough time or not wanting to write extra dialogue. It's a bit unfortunate, I would have liked to stroll the beaches of Sentinel island as the master of the tower.

The broken waypoint shrine does make it strange wondering how the runners get out. And it isn't even necessary to have it break, because the game already has a mechanism for you to lose your waypoint shrines built-in (after you take over the tower). A working shrine would have made trips back and forth to vendors a bit faster.

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Originally Posted by Kein
What you decribed in your post isn't an RP-elements. Not even a little.


Really, what part isn't a story or roleplaying element? If you pretend that you are in character, you need to have certain elements in your world. This is really the only type of roleplay that can take place. D2 does not allow you to sit at tables, drink a beer with the boys, etc.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Also, what happened to Narcissus, the head of the Prancing Seahorse, according to Turgoyen? Was he eaten by undead?


That's a good question. The Prancing Seahorse is virtually empty. Likely, due to Ursula and city falling to all manner of insidious forces.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
The broken waypoint shrine does make it strange wondering how the runners get out. And it isn't even necessary to have it break, because the game already has a mechanism for you to lose your waypoint shrines built-in (after you take over the tower). A working shrine would have made trips back and forth to vendors a bit faster.


Very true. But it does force people to go back to the place that they teleported from. In fact, it encourages people to discover the leave tower feature. The first dozen trips after I acquired the battle tower, I didn't even realize that's what the feature does. Its misleading because leave battle tower would suggest that you exit via the front door.

Last edited by candlebbq; 08/12/10 11:11 PM.
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^What boys? Everyone is too busy to sit at tables, or "drink a beer with the boys". I find this very realistic unlike those drunks in the phoenix Inn who have nothing to live for and just drink away.If I was a Dragon Knight I would not let anyone in the army have a chance to rest, especially as the millions of flying fortresses loom ominously overhead. How could you even say that? This game is better then any Bethesda or Bioware games because of one tricky thing. This game MAKES you feel endangered, it MAKES you feel attached and maybe a bit rushed and it does NOT hold your crying wittle hand because of your blindness to RP elements. Its not missing anything except for another installment, you just haven't woke up and smelt the coffee just yet. I suggest you do, because this game is amazing for people who have, plus the coffee is still warm.

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded hostile it wasnt meant to be

Last edited by 2Lazy2Login; 08/12/10 11:31 PM.

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To take flamebait or not, that is the question? I guess I'll bite, it is a game with dragons after all.

Originally Posted by "2Lazy2Login"
This game MAKES you feel endangered


I disagree. If you mindread a few people you will find that Larian has a great sense of humor about it. Apparently contrary to one Phoenix Inn patron, you can wring a few more quests out of the NPCs and grab some extra xp in the process. If you're so endangered why can your character even do all those silly little quests. It only feels rushed if you think the shield is going to fall at any moment. But like any movie made within the last 30 years, the shield never falls until you've acquired some awesome mindblowing power. In fact, if you play to the end, you don't even need to trigger the final sequence until you feel you're ready. Real big rush, eh?

Of course, if you do feel the rush, thrill, and drive to push forward and become engaged with the atmosphere...this is a great thing for Larian. They definitely, need more supporters like you. No sarcasm. Personally, I don't feel it perhaps because I'm jaded from too many games. You need to make me feel it, for it to work for me. Strong storytelling does this. But it does vary from person to person. And I'm glad it worked for you.

Last edited by candlebbq; 08/12/10 11:43 PM.
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^The little side quests you do give more experience as a person for doing them. This game makes me feel rushed because there is a massive army and the game points to that numerous times. And would you ever play any RPG if it had no references to life, or if it was a completely linear and gave you game over if you didnt follow it to the letter. GOD NO!!! And whats an even bigger issue is that you say "if you mindread", and I am not sure about you but if I had a 50/50 chance of living and there was a dragon knight helping out a lot then I would surely try to keep myself occupied. I see where you're coming from and you see where I'm coming from so lets just agree to disagree on our opinions.


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I don't get along well with "writing tropes", but I suppose it lets the developer off the hook easily enough.

Implied urgency is better than fighting a timer, in my opinion, and most games I keep don't have timed missions. If they do I find a way to disable it. Did that in Oblivion. Disabled the "spirit meter" in Mask of the Betrayer, etc. This game's timed mission at the end is annoying, but mostly doable (I had to try it several times before I finally succeeded). I'm rushed all day at work, so I don't like being rushed in games. Implied urgency is just fine because it sets the mood and reminds me of impending doom should I fail, but I don't have to run around like a madman because of it.

Wouldn't be surprised if Grimm is a bug. The game replaced the dragon armor I'd been wearing with completely non-enchanted bone armor (no + skills or anything), which was annoying. In my case, my servants welcomed me back rather than acting like it was our first meeting, so I guess that part worked correctly.

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@2Lazy2Login:

First I have to apologize for the strong opening statement.

I think you may have misinterpreted my response. Larian is quite self-deprecating about the fact that you are playing a game; that's great for people like me. However, I see right through the mechanisms, triggers, plot lines, and writing tropes. To me, whenever I see a game I can help but breakdown how its made; I can see the tools, the engine, the tuning, and the process. Maybe because I've seen it all before. Maybe its because I've done it all before. Still there are handful of titles that get me excited because they push the boundaries of what I know can be done. They introduce me to things I've never seen. So yes, I'm jaded.

I'm glad you feel so engaged by the experience. The story elements, the atmosphere, and ultimately the out-of-game experience. Larian doesn't have true in-game RP elements. Instead these RP and story elements play out in your head. And apparently it works very well because you are engaged in the RP. Not in game RP, but your own RP. You feel rushed...great! You feel like you are this character...even better! These are all wonderful things and a credit to the staff.

-----

Back on topic... Anybody want to additional discuss story or RP game elements?

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Originally Posted by Endurium
Wouldn't be surprised if Grimm is a bug. The game replaced the dragon armor I'd been wearing with completely non-enchanted bone armor (no + skills or anything), which was annoying


Did it appear in your inventory? Because it did in mine. It looks like the developers disabled the skill tree and gave you all the needed dragon skills. I think they also reset the hot slots and replaced them with a generic set of dragon skills.

Originally Posted by Endurium
In my case, my servants welcomed me back rather than acting like it was our first meeting, so I guess that part worked correctly.


Did Hermaphroditus, Salome, or Kirill recognize you? They didn't for me.

As for salome, despite her historical and biblical reference, was a little too generic and her dance unseductive. Maybe they should have replaced her model with Rhode grin

Last edited by candlebbq; 09/12/10 01:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by candlebbq
What happened to everyone on your island? I always assume at least a couple people were smart enough to run to your tower for shelter. Unfortunately, it looks like only the retarded NPC that wants a book that's worth a skill point is left camping outside. It really doesn't leave anything to the imagination.

But why is that annoying? One personal reason... I always imagined that with your castle, in our case a battle tower of power, you get all the accoutrements. For instance the chef couple that was outside, Henry and Eleanor, are apparently dead. WTF??? That really through me for a loop. In FoV, your conversation with Ricky confirms that your character knows their fate. I mean seriously, you get a lavish throne room and all you have to eat is conjured dog food and scraps you've pilfered off other people like a beggar!? I really wished Larian removed that part of the conversation or at least added a third dialog option that states they are now in your employ. I like the fantasy that my character has private chefs.

I must admit this bothered me: partly because I also expected the chef and his wife would take up residence at the tower, since it seemed an explanation for their presence, but also because I felt the fates of those left on both the island and in the likes of Broken Valley village were addressed in a slightly dismissive manner. Which is perhaps a subjective thing... perhaps I'd remained optimistic that Damian's arrival was at a glacial enough speed that most of the people had managed to leg it before things got really unpleasant, but alas not.

Then again, a few of the characters from the village did have cameos of sorts, which leaves me wondering; and the comment about its inhabitants did only mention the Black Boar as far as I recall...


Edit: and was I the only one whose entire library was swiped from my coffer when FoV started? I'd spent ages building that up and was quite miffed.

Last edited by Vometia; 10/12/10 08:02 AM.

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If you're talking about backstory and hint books... it looks like everything that isn't a consumable or equipment was discarded. Most of it is still available to be found again in FoV but if you like keeping your novels, you had to start over again.

And if by cameo you mean corpses, then yes. It is a rather annoying mixed message. There is an excess of nihilism in D2. There seems to be two classes of characters. The typical high fantasy where every named character seems to have a greater purpose, such as yourself and anybody else that's a great wizard, sorcerer, dragon, etc. And then you have characters that amount to empty shells. You meet them, a little depth is added and then poof. Its like the characters never even tried to escape their fate. Seemly like a group of extras in a movie whose purpose is to be stomped on by godzilla. Its oddly distracting because there seems to be no apparent reason why they can't be the type of forgettable faceless souls that gives one or two line non-conversational dialog. Of course, some of them are simply there to fulfill a game mechanism. But still, for me the utilitarian purpose of the character appears to break the illusion of suspended disbelief. Is a character's worth only what he/she can do to maximize his/her practical function?

EDIT:

I must also add, before anyone starts bringing real-life into the discussion... If I meet you and get to know you, and then suddenly you turn into a cardboard cutout at the first sign of danger... it would certainly be disconcerting. For instance, on your island its not like you see corpses of the survivors as they attempted to run for your tower. Its like they were simply illusions, there to play out a scene and then be relegated back to the abyss of anonymity.

Last edited by candlebbq; 10/12/10 08:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by candlebbq
If you're talking about backstory and hint books... it looks like everything that isn't a consumable or equipment was discarded. Most of it is still available to be found again in FoV but if you like keeping your novels, you had to start over again.

It's not just me, then: well that's something at least, and my tendency to hoard stuff probably isn't one of my more useful traits anyway. grin

Originally Posted by candlebbq
And if by cameo you mean corpses, then yes. It is a rather annoying mixed message. There is an excess of nihilism in D2. There seems to be two classes of characters. The typical high fantasy where every named character seems to have a greater purpose, such as yourself and anybody else that's a great wizard, sorcerer, dragon, etc. And then you have characters that amount to empty shells. You meet them, a little depth is added and then poof. Its like the characters never even tried to escape their fate. Seemly like a group of extras in a movie whose purpose is to be stomped on by godzilla. Its oddly distracting because there seems to be no apparent reason why they can't be the type of forgettable faceless souls that gives one or two line non-conversational dialog. Of course, some of them are simply there to fulfill a game mechanism. But still, for me the utilitarian purpose of the character appears to break the illusion of suspended disbelief. Is a character's worth only what he/she can do to maximize his/her practical function?

I did mean the corpses. I agree with you there, it does seem that non-key characters seem to be somewhat like the "red shirts" in Star Trek. I happen to like background characters, though, to the point where I've modded the likes of Oblivion and Fallout 3 to make all but the most unpleasant essential so that I don't find myself wandering through an empty world. Well, that and the fact that I like a lot of them. So from that point of view, I was sad to learn of their likely fates and that more of them didn't successfully find refuge in Aleroth. Well, for values of "successfully", given the state of health of those we did meet.


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Well I was going to append my post but I believe the most apropos analogy is one moment a character is Pinocchio, then next moment a lifeless rag doll headed for the wood chipper.

Last edited by candlebbq; 10/12/10 08:46 AM.

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