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Originally Posted by Kein

That's "stupid evil Sauron" syndrome. The bad guy SITS THE WHOLE STORY IN HIS TOWER DOING NOTHING and start to act only @ the end. And always loses coz IT'S TOO LATE :P

You must have read a weird Russian translation of LOTR.

Originally Posted by Joram

Or just have fun doing an endless conversation here?

Pretty much this.

Anyway, I hope we will be seeing the other Council races in Divinity 3 (?).

Last edited by virumor; 18/01/11 09:44 PM.
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What I'm trying to say is - yes, we are aware of certain problems in the storyline, and yes, we think of how we can fix those.

Yeah, and as always - if is being fixed after, not before :<

Raze
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I claimed my speculation made more sense to me than your speculation. That was it.

My words make more sense to me. And some other ppl in this thread who share the same point.
You lose. EOF.

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DAO is more realistic in that regard. My point was that in principle it is still pretty much the same thing.

First, you agree with my point that they are different and DAO more realistic, but then you say "they are the same".
No doubt your words make sense only for you.

virumor
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You must have read a weird Russian translation of LOTR.

Actually, I read all available translations + even the original (not all books tho).
Anyway, "stupid Sauron" isn't my make up. Meme lives since the book was released.

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@Kein :
Raze lose ... and you won??? hahaha

What have you won, if I may ask?
A kiss from the Succubus?



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it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Raze wins in my heart! bow

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It is not important who win and who lose here.

It is important to show Larian studios their mistakes so they can fix them, improving story, fixing plotholes and game mechanics. Let's give Larian helpful hand, so we, and all gamers and fans can be winners with great rpg game (div3) as prize.


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Originally Posted by Joram
@Kein :
Raze lose ... and you won??? hahaha

What have you won, if I may ask?

I'm so tempted to think up a few answers to that, but I suspect they may not be entirely conducive to continued polite discussion. grin


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Kein
My words make more sense to me. And some other ppl in this thread who share the same point.
You lose. EOF.


So... I need proof to support my arguments, but you just have to reference someone that holds the same opinion as you?
In any case, congratulations on your win. party


First, you agree with my point that they are different and DAO more realistic, but then you say "they are the same".

The plots are different in the way they are executed, but essentially the same in design. In both cases the player saves the world. Having an army along helps with atmosphere, etc, but is simply cosmetic; the actual plot mechanisms are the same.

No doubt your words make sense only for you.

Being hit by a two ton truck is worse than being hit by a one ton truck, but they are still pretty much the same thing.



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I just came here for a good argument. biggrin

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Originally Posted by Axel
Raze wins in my heart! bow
Axel, you're my hero for saying that claphands


I'd like to close by quoting Bellegar's famous last rhyme:

"Cursed be the mother that bred thee!
The wench must have been a hell-spawned banshee!"
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Raze:

smile

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Originally Posted by Raze
No doubt your words make sense only for you.

Being hit by a two ton truck is worse than being hit by a one ton truck, but they are still pretty much the same thing.

grin Brilliant!

And kudos for your endless patience. smile


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So... I need proof to support my arguments, but you just have to reference someone that holds the same opinion as you?

Oh, nice.
You provided an argument? Can I ask you...
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I'd think dragons leaving (Patriarch wasn't hiding) had more to do with humans turning on them than anything the Black Ring did.

an argument for what? For your fantasies and make up? Since when something you said become an argument? Did you even follow the convo and your own words, lol?

To make an argument, you need rely on facts.

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I claimed my speculation made more sense to me than your speculation. That was it.

It is fun how quickly your speculation and assumptions became an argument >_>

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The plots are different in the way they are executed, but essentially the same in design. In both cases the player saves the world. Having an army along helps with atmosphere, etc, but is simply cosmetic; the actual plot mechanisms are the same.

Yeah, right. I love when ppl use "simplify conception tactics" :p
let's use your weapon against you: Call fo Duty. We're a soldier here, we play as a soldier, we play the role. CoD == RPG? In the end, we save the world (and not really metaphorically) too! Same design, huh?
We can simplify every game and find tons of common things that differs just a bit. But that is! This is the case of everything - that difference. The more complicated and different some aspect, the more it -- sorry for teh tautology -- differs. DAO's plot/stroy is different. There is a lot of tiny differences on the DAO's picture with uses teh same canvas (genre) as Divinity 2 does. But those differences is what makes DAO special, different from Divinity2 and better in some cases. Can you die in Divinity 2, saving the world? No. Can you save it with group of your friends, having an army behind your back, that trust you and put their lives in your hands? No.

And you telling me that level of realism of those two game equal, lol. Sometimes, the blind fanboism is like a fog - you can't see anything.

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Raze lose ... and you won???

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The game makes it pretty clear that Dragon Slayers are primarily responsible for the near-eradication of Dragon Knights. Patriarch states it, many characters state it, many books state it. So, it is not a leap to think that the Slayers may also be responsible for the deaths or driving away of Dragons. In fact, it seems very likely. It is their business to slay dragons. Therefore, I don't see how it is pure unsubstantiated fantasy for Raze to say it was more likely that Slayers drove dragons away rather than the Black Ring. Ultimately, you're both right, because it was the Black Ring's treachery that caused the humans to turn against Dragons anyway.

What's baffling to me is how actual points get so obscured by explaining to each other what the other said, how to make arguments, endless descriptions of what the other person is probably thinking. There is at least one person in this thread who always seems in combat mode.

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Originally Posted by Kein

We can simplify every game and find tons of common things that differs just a bit. But that is! This is the case of everything - that difference. The more complicated and different some aspect, the more it -- sorry for teh tautology -- differs. DAO's plot/stroy is different. There is a lot of tiny differences on the DAO's picture with uses teh same canvas (genre) as Divinity 2 does. But those differences is what makes DAO special, different from Divinity2 and better in some cases. Can you die in Divinity 2, saving the world? No. Can you save it with group of your friends, having an army behind your back, that trust you and put their lives in your hands? No.

And you telling me that level of realism of those two game equal, lol. Sometimes, the blind fanboism is like a fog - you can't see anything.

Ahhh... the delights of utter irony.

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Kein
You provided an argument? Can I ask you...

I meant argument as in defending a position in a debate. See, for example (sorry Flixerflax :hihi: ), definitions 2, 3, 4 and 5 here. Arguments can certainly be made with facts, but facts are not required (definition 4 mentions statements and reasons used for or against a point, as well as facts).

When debating a scientific theory, or anything else with an absolute truth, facts are of course the best means to form an argument. Even then, where there are theories without enough empirical evidence to prove or disprove, scientists have certainly argued that the elegant beauty or simplicity of a mathematical model means there must be something fundamentally correct about it, etc.


To make an argument, you need rely on facts.

Speaking of which, where are the facts that the Black Ring drove the dragons into hiding?
Or is this just "your fantasies and make up"?

Or are hard facts just not involved when debating two different suggestions about the reasoning behind something that happened in the back story of a game?


It is fun how quickly your speculation and assumptions became an argument

The process of putting forth speculation and/or assumptions and debating them is an argument.


Yeah, right. I love when ppl use "simplify conception tactics" :p
let's use your weapon against you: Call fo Duty. We're a soldier here, we play as a soldier, we play the role. CoD == RPG? In the end, we save the world (and not really metaphorically) too! Same design, huh?


Not that it matters, but some people do use that definition and argue that any game where you take on a role makes it an RPG. Obviously this is broadens the category enough that it becomes meaningless, and most people have additional criteria (character development / customization, levels, stats/skills, etc).

Back on point, I was not simplifying anything. I made a comment that the player controlling a character or small group to save the world against a powerful opponent (usually accompanied by a large group) is pretty common in RPGs. You responded that DAO is more realistic because you gather an army for the final battle. I agreed that that was a more plausible scenario than D2:ED's plot (though there are valid reasons for some stuff the Black Ring does or fails to do that may seem illogical when first encountered).

However, when I argued they were still essentially the same thing, what I was trying to explain was that the army in DAO is essentially cosmetic. The army doesn't do anything without you, unless you finish quests or trigger certain plot points where something is meant to happen, so there is nothing fundamentally different with the plot mechanisms. It is still you saving the world, and the army may as well be a pet or NPC you can add to your party.


DAO's plot/stroy is different. There is a lot of tiny differences on the DAO's picture with uses teh same canvas (genre) as Divinity 2 does. But those differences is what makes DAO special, different from Divinity2 and better in some cases.

We may actually have come close to an agreement... I was arguing that the differences were tiny, not that those differences couldn't have a significant impact on the game overall. In theory I can say having an army is more plausible, but when actually playing a game, my first reaction whenever I get help is pretty much always "Hey, you bastards! Stop stealing my experience points!". Maybe when I build a new computer and play DAO (no Xbox demo, so obviously they don't want me to buy that version) I will appreciate the subtle differences as much as you do, but I will still very likely argue that the fundamental 'save the world' plot design is essentially the same.


And you telling me that level of realism of those two game equal, lol.

I never commented on the level of realism of the games overall, and always conceded that gathering an army was a more plausible plot device than going after the bad guys alone (though there are reasons in D2:ED why this was more effective than you would expect initially).


Sometimes, the blind fanboism is like a fog - you can't see anything.

Really?? Is it impossible to honestly hold an opinion that differs from yours?
Some people can debate a topic and simply agree to disagree...

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Do I see two duelists here? smile

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Nope, just bored, waiting for DKS. I don't think there is much life left in this particular argument, though, unless someone comes up with some new suggestions.
For that dueling caricature, I've got nothing personal against Kein (or the other way around, AFAIK) and welcome anyone else joining in a debate, on either side, if they have something to add.

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Originally Posted by Raze
...welcome anyone else joining in a debate...
Raze, Raze, Raze... There never was a debate that I could see. He obviously has problems with the English language and not able to understand what you're saying. His broken English and almost nonexistent grammar attests to that. On the other hand, I may be totally wrong and the chemicals in his brain maybe playing tricks on him; who knows? Regardless, you're wasting your breath trying to get through to him.

There's also another aspect which was self admitted not long ago. You know what, I'm putting my money on this aspect:
Originally Posted by Kein
C'mon, stop doing it, your tactics pretty primitive to use on me and it never gonna work. I have a troll experiecne as well

Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Troll: One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

Quoted from The Urban Dictionary


I'd like to close by quoting Bellegar's famous last rhyme:

"Cursed be the mother that bred thee!
The wench must have been a hell-spawned banshee!"
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That comment about people joining in on a debate was a reference to the definition of a 'duelist'. For this particular argument, it started off with little broad appeal, and dropped from there.

I don't mind trying to explain my position a couple times. If that process eliminates misunderstandings or gets a point across (as in understanding, not necessarily agreement), then great, that is the purpose of forming an argument; if not, then it still clarifies things.

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Originally Posted by Raze

Nope, just bored, waiting for DKS. I don't think there is much life left in this particular argument, though, unless someone comes up with some new suggestions.
For that dueling caricature, I've got nothing personal against Kein (or the other way around, AFAIK) and welcome anyone else joining in a debate, on either side, if they have something to add.


Boring, "waiting" for DKS ??
Me too, waiting for patch of DKS (Xbox), here in Belgium biggrin

But why boring? :hihi:
Go play again Divine div like I do, hardcore style (= one kill - NO save/reloads!).
For me it was a real fantastic adventure for eight months long delight But beware of all that is D-evil in the world of Rivellon !! aargh

@Kein : "Bonne Appetit mon amie"** (with the price you won, that tasty pie wink )

** have a nice meal my friend !


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it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Mornin'! Oh you're still here? Hmm...

So how about we all agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Kein, we get it, Bioware does it better, we're sorry, we'll work harder for the next game, don't worry, Dragon Age 2 is coming out soon, there will be plenty of meaningful, well thought out back-stories about elves and dwarves and fairies you can delve into, you won't have to think about the dreadful plot holes of Divinity II anymore.

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