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Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Astara] #441300
05/04/11 11:07 AM
05/04/11 11:07 AM
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Procrastes Offline
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Originally Posted by Astara
The post asked for an example of someone who had murderous intent (prejudice), who would turn on someone close who was found to have tainted blood. Her murdering her bro was based on political aspirations, not a need to purge the world of some 'taint' that she discovered her brother had become infected with.

In terms of plotting or being 'nefarious', women may have an edge, on the average, as they usually have to be 'sneaky' in order to overcome the male's advantage of muscular strength. However, among the pinnacles of nefarious, cannot be ignored the writings of Machiavelli -- while women might average higher in some area, males almost always have a greater std. deviation, and can produce single examples that are likely to exceed the best female (with the converse also being true -- i.e. chances of producing the greatest idiots).



I admit that the comparison with Cleopatra is not a perfect simile. It was the closest I could come on short notice, however, since my search for a historical female who turned on a close associate on account of the latter having contracted dragon taint, regrettably came up short. If I do find a perfect match, I'll let you know.

I'll stand by the view on basic equality, however. While Machiavelli is always interesting, I'd say that the theories of genus psychology have advanced quite a bit since his time. If history gives more examples of extreme deviation on the male side, I suggest that this is because men have generally been given greater opportunity to deviate. If a woman deviated in renaissance Italy, for example, she would probably have been locked up in a convent.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Raze] #441301
05/04/11 11:47 AM
05/04/11 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Raze

I was talking about a murderous zealot who would turn on a close follower for suspected 'taint'.

So no women have ever instigated or participated in a (so called) honour killing?


That is a good example. And in one of the witch trials burnings in 17th century Sweden, the daughter of one of the accused had actually testified against her own mother, who was then sentenced to burn at the stake. As she stood on the pyre, her daughter cried out to her, begging her to confess and thus save her soul from damnation. She replied by cursing her malignant offspring (all this is recorded in the court protocol). I don't recall if the daughter had been the one to turn her mother in, but whether or not, I think she would qualify as the kind of murderous zealot we are talking about here.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Astara] #441303
05/04/11 01:00 PM
05/04/11 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Astara
You are twisting words, which indicates that you are arguing an indefensible point.

I didn't ask that a female leader give up everything she believed. Just that she not immediately kill. There's a big difference there.

My contention is she wouldn't kill.

Neither did I say a woman is incapable of becoming a zealot -- I was talking about a murderous zealot who would turn on a close follower for suspected 'taint'.

I'm saying such doesn't exist.



You specified that you believe women are not capable of that kind of behavior, which implies that you believe men are capable of that behavior. Several posters here find that logic to be absurd, and will continue to find it absurd no much you protest.


Quote
I didn't say Ygerna was *completely* w/o blame -- I said the level of her crime was considerably mitigated by the fact that her actions were coerced. We don't hold people, fully, responsible for their actions when they were under coercion. Also, *in the game*, her crime was telling Damian about his past -- no mention is made of any supposed murders she had done.

I can make up side stories to justify any point of view -- but I'm looking at what goes on in the game -- not in side stories about the game that could have been written after they wrote the script for FoV and needed further justification for Lucien's actions.


The "Child of Chaos" Novella was written for Beyond Divinity, which was released in 2005. It was probably written before or during the writing of Beyond Divinity. It was not written as a retroactive justification.

You have decided that no matter whatever else the Divine did, no matter how many lives he saved, killing Ygerna makes him evil. Another point of view is Lucian as a protective father, except that he not only has to protect his son from the world, but also protect the world from his son.


I don't think you read the Novella, (found in The Fansite Kit 20 MB) because it does not ignore Lucian's questionable actions dealing with Ygerna.


Quote

‘Why did you do it?!’ screamed Damian. ‘Why her? Why couldn’t you let us be happy?!’

‘She was a murderer, Damian. A killer of innocent children,’ retorted Lucian, holding the
boy off with a shield spell at the same time as back-stepping his way towards the temple.

‘She was just protecting her father. She knew that if she didn’t do what the Black Ring wanted,
then they would kill them both. Now you’ve made me go to them, Lucian. You made me
do it. They told me who I really was and what you have been hiding from me all these
years.’

‘I did that for your own good, Damian. I did it to protect you from yourself.’

<snip>

‘You did it because you were afraid I would become greater than you. And I will, Lucian, I
will. When you killed Ygerna, you took away my right to choose. And now there is no
choice to be made anymore!’

‘There is always a choice, Damian,’ shouted Lucian and then realised that he was exactly
the wrong person to be saying that. Had he really not had a choice in killing the girl?

<snip>

‘You should have killed me when you had the chance,’ he spat. ‘Day by day I grow more
powerful, while you grow weaker by clinging to your pathetic values of law and order. Can
you not feel it, Lucian? Can you not feel the world moving in my direction?’

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Stabbey] #441317
05/04/11 07:13 PM
05/04/11 07:13 PM
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So Lucian realized(or started to realize) that killing Ygerna wasn't the brightest idea. She was evil, lucian was good, but executing Ygerna pushed Damian into becoming big bad guy.
Instead Zandalor could imprisone her in some sort of magic prison (like Lucian was imprisoned) and try to explain to Damian truth.
But past deed cannot be undone, and if Ygerna would be alive and Damian would remain good guy then there would't be divinity 2 to play, so it's alright smile

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Astara] #441323
05/04/11 08:52 PM
05/04/11 08:52 PM
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legionangel Offline
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Originally Posted by Astara
The post asked for an example of someone who had murderous intent (prejudice), who would turn on someone close who was found to have tainted blood. Her murdering her bro was based on political aspirations, not a need to purge the world of some 'taint' that she discovered her brother had become infected with.


Procrastes gave a great example as to what you asked for, and just because Cleopatra murdered her brother under
Originally Posted by Astara
political aspirations
according to you who knows all, means that there have been no women in history that have done exactly 120% what youre looking for? Oh please.

Originally Posted by Atara
Neither did I say a woman is incapable of becoming a zealot -- I was talking about a murderous zealot who would turn on a close follower for suspected 'taint'.

I'm saying such doesn't exist.


Again, just because one word is different you are still right and that there has been no woman in history that has been a
Originally Posted by Astara
murderous zealot who would turn on a close follower for suspected 'taint'


Are you forgetting that this is a game, a make believe world made for entertainment purposes, and not real life?


My name is Legion: for we are many.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Astara] #441379
07/04/11 03:33 AM
07/04/11 03:33 AM
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needshelps Offline
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Originally Posted by Astara

As for the actions of Rhode and her extreme antipathy toward me -- show me one example of a female, in history, who rose through the ranks to be a leader among her people, who's prejudice against a group was so murderous that she would turn upon a former pupil who was found to have 'tainted blood'.

To be honest, I cannot think of any times in history when a human female leader (because, you know, there are just so many records of female leaders) has not turned on one of her former pupils, when that pupil has turned into a flying, fire-breathing reptile.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: needshelps] #441399
07/04/11 11:25 AM
07/04/11 11:25 AM
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If Ygerna really loved Damian, why would she have revealed his true nature and awaken the Demon within, who would eventually completely take over Damian's personality?

She wanted nothing but power. Damian, for his part, is an idiot for even wanting to become the Demon of Lies.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: virumor] #441408
07/04/11 03:05 PM
07/04/11 03:05 PM
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legionangel Offline
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What ever said that Ygerna was awakening Damians powers so that she could awaken the demon? All that was ever said in D2 was that she was just trying to awaken his powers because of what he is, not to awaken the demon.

If you didnt know that there was a demon inside of you but there was somebody who said they can make you more powerful, would you say, "lets go for it" or "forget that. I like being normal"?


My name is Legion: for we are many.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: legionangel] #441418
07/04/11 07:50 PM
07/04/11 07:50 PM
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virumor Offline
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She's Black Ring, their goal is to bring back the Demon of Lies.

The Demon of Lies wasn't exactly a demon, but rather an evil god. Damian was merely a vessel for his power. If the demon awakened, the demon would completely take over and his personality would be erased.

Ygerna must've known this, but mayhap was so "blinded by love" that she chose to believe that Damian would be strong enough to control the Demon?

Last edited by virumor; 07/04/11 07:52 PM.
Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Raze] #441445
08/04/11 05:37 PM
08/04/11 05:37 PM
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Demonic Offline
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Ygrna's crime was unleashing the demon in Damien's soul. That's what Lucien says at the end of Ego when you witness the "trail". (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been months since I finished Ego again) To me, unleashing a demon in someone's soul is quite evil. No good can come of it and thus Lucien's actions were justified when he slew that bitch.

Hell. He should have brought her back from the dead just to kill her all over again.

Last edited by Demonic; 08/04/11 05:41 PM.
Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: Demonic] #441451
08/04/11 06:25 PM
08/04/11 06:25 PM
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legionangel Offline
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Nah. Killing her a second time is no good. I think ramming a zeppeling up her a** is a whole lot more fun. pwned weird!


My name is Legion: for we are many.

Re: Story line annoyances... [Re: virumor] #441457
08/04/11 08:07 PM
08/04/11 08:07 PM
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The Demon of Lies died with the sword wink Damian is the Lord of Chaos (who had a fragment of his soul in the sword of lies, that's correct)



"The Frenglais does déjŕ exist. Many gens are parling this langue" Barta
Re: Story line annoyances... [SPOILERS] [Re: Astara] #441659
12/04/11 07:14 PM
12/04/11 07:14 PM
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Lucreel Offline
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Originally Posted by Astara

In a similar way, though not to same extent, I hated the dialogue choices w/Rhode. Said this before and will say it again. Her response to my 'conversion' as being a 'Betrayer' was completely without sense.


I think you must have missed the part where "Betrayer" is a title that the Slayers use for Dragons. She's not saying that you betrayed her, but simply that now that Talana 'got' to you, you've become a "Betrayer", e.g. become a dragon knight.

Quote

* Second, leaving they task of executing me to 'underlings' would be an entirely irresponsible action of my 'commander'. It would be like some manager telling 3 employees to go off and 'fire' one of their coworkers...


I had a couple thoughts on this while playing the game. . . first, she clearly expects you to commit suicide - she hands you Arben's Sword and tells you to remember your oaths. Secondly, if you do fight back, and manage to win, it would be important to her that *somoeone* gets away to let the rest of the Order know that you have become a new Dragon Knight - such intelligence would be important to the Order. That said, you'd think she'd send one of the Underlings to tell the order, and stay herself - it really isn't well explained why she leaves instead.

It's clear that the developers didn't want you to kill Rhode in this game, but to leave her alive to confront you in the next game. I think a major component of the next game will be being hunted by the Order. Also, arguably, they want Rhode to be a higher-level character - she's supposed to be one of the elite among the Order, and the Order are already supposed to be elite. It would be like being part of an elite unit within the Navy Seals or Army Rangers. Having you kill her at level 10-15 would be too soon for such a confrontation.

Quote

* Third, I was initially willing to work w/her & help her. The entire bit about her not wanting to listen to me or anything I had to say was completely illogical. It wasn't as if she and I had been long time enemies -- instead, I was her new pupil, maybe the last to become a Slayer (what need for Slayers if no more Dragons?)


As others have said, the Rhode character is not supposed to be reasonable. That's just who she is - a heartless fanatic. A true believer. You have been 'tainted' by the dragon essence, now you must die, that's all there is to it. You're right that it's not reasonable of her to hold you accountable - THAT's the POINT.

Quote
* Fourth, this really bothered me after thinking about it for a while. Since when is it considered remotely 'reasonable' to exterminate all members of a group for the actions of one?
Such behavior is considered backwards at 'best', like punishing 7 generations of a family, or automatically condemning and executing all known associates and relatives of some criminal, w/o regard for how those associates or relatives thought of the actions of the criminal. However, in general, such behavior is a prime example of the bigotry present in racism and genocide -- generally considered to be among the most evil of actions.


Again, you're correct, and again, that's the point. The writers wanted you to think this through and come to the conclusion you have. The Slayers are not at all reasonable. I decided that in Farglow. To hold all dragon knights responsible for one DK killing the Divine, is not at all reasonable. It's why Zalandor is now persona non grata - because he tried to defend the knights against the order, but the order had captured public opinion.

Quote

* Fifth, wasn't the real enemy the 'Black Ring'? It wasn't so much that Dragons (Dragon Knights) were enemies of humans, but that supposedly they had betrayed humans. While that might have been true about *some* DK, in the past, it certainly wasn't true of me who was her protégée.


Yes, and several characters throughout the game make that same point - Talana as she's dieing says so, I think ZixZax makes a similar statement, Zalandor, etc - that the humans have become distracted by their quest against the Dragon Knights, and turned their eyes away from the real threat.

In fact, I somewhat expect in the next game that we'll find out that some of the Slayers (probably Rhode), were really Black Ring agents, intended to make sure that the Slayers stayed Polarized, and kept hunting down dragon. Some might have been propagandists whose mission was to keep the population turned against Zalandor and the Knights.

Quote

In general, I was bummed about my choices w/Rhode -- I didn't want to fight her -- I really liked her.

Anyway, those were issues that really hurt the story 'immersion' effect, in that they were so unbelievable and infuriating. Except for Damian's actions against all humans as his 'vengeance' quest (which can't be allowed to continue), I felt he was one of the least evil characters considering him w/Rhode (and Slayers in general), and those who executed Ygrna. Those actions felt more like they were the actions of 'evil', rather than 'good'...


It's true that the story doesn't seem entirely believable at times. It's a bit of a soap opera, or a melodrama in most regards. Most of the villains are classic 'comic book villains' - so two-dimensional you could slip them in an envelope and mail them.

Perhaps in the next game, we'll have a chance to try to win Rhode over to our side (it could be one of the moral choices presented in the game - seek revenge against Rhode, or attempt reconciliation).

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