Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 12 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 11 12
Joined: Aug 2009
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2009
Copied from the KS-Site I am happy right now smile

Creator Larian Studios LLC on March 31
@Loranc: A lot of questions indeed wink
Difficulty levels aren't finalized yet, but we have some ideas.
Character customization screens aren't in yet, but I'm thinking we'll be doing something like the illusionist in Divinity 2 to handle a player dropping in in multiplayer who doesn't like the looks chosen by the other player (the host).
There will at the very least be the equivalent of gold dust, and I guess that once that's in, we could probably include ways to make paint out of transition metals wink Those would be good item combos. Still, that's not done yet either.

Female armor will be realistic.

Dragon Commander as an add-on perhaps once the pre-order campaign launches, which is going to be in a couple of weeks.
Party size is limited to 4 + whatever you summon
The experience split is something we're still fooling around with so no final decisions there yet.

Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

When the restriction and rules that supposed to support freedom and rights on one group start to limit another and the first is completely blind and oblivious to it - there is clearly something wrong with the whole concept of it.

I hope you are happy, "offended", I hope it was worth it.

Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Larian Studios
Offline
Larian Studios
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada

That poor artist, having to deal with the "harsh" criticism of unrealistic armour being called unrealistic.

You hope what was worth it? The cover art for the kickstarter was changed; nothing about the game was changed. What exactly are the horrible consequences that should make people regret voicing an opinion on the art and it being change so it wasn't ridiculous?

I didn't get a t-shirt in the kickstarter because it used the original cover art, and I would never wear it.
I know of a few people who almost didn't back the kickstarter because of the original cover art (that being the immediate representation of the game on kickstarter). I doubt anyone looked at the updated art and didn't back because they couldn't see a bare belly (and arms, neck and cleavage, which the artist failed to mention in that post).

Joined: May 2005
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: May 2005
I believe in a lot of freedom, and I can see the chainmail bikini as a way of characterising an established concept of feminine that may be as unpleasant to many as Conan in supertight maille swimming trunks would be to me. The artwork would mostly be limited to people who like that expression, or find it bearable (irrelevant/tolerable).

My own tolerance for it (and my ability to enjoy cool images with lots of flow, action and zest) would be greatly increased if the context was an artwork where the rest of the art was similarly geared towards style over realism. (IE. Nobody significant wears armour that's plainly functional, unless exceptional plainness is part of that character's function; Greg the incredibly dull and responsible guy who just dons the plate and gets on with it.)

Some people bring up Conan. Sexualised? Maybe. Sexist portrayal of armour? No. Unarmoured. (I mentioned metal trunks, as the equivalent of bikini armour.) <EDIT> As I recall, Conan is sortof "adult" and sexualised through and through; so that's another thing - in that artwork the baring of skin isn't necessarily particular to genders.

In a world where all the men don practical equipment that protects most of their bodies, it seems way out of place when the highest order of armour a woman will wear hardly amounts to more than a chastity belt.

I'm not very uncomfortable playing such games, although I think it is because I am spared the men donning battle-speedos and going to war (perhaps with right shoulder, half the chest and one nipple protected as well, to draw extra attention to the unprotected heart, man-chest and nipple). I get the impression that people overlook the extent to which the females are portrayed as sex-bombs rather than fighters.

I wouldn't object to the existence artwork featuring males in armour modeled on actual provocative clothing (not merely scant), but I'd probably feel something turning in my belly and play another game. (The closest thing I've seen is the toned, glistening football-stars looming in their skintight boxers on posters around the city, or brown painted sex-dudes on Paradise Hotel adverts; they're actually somewhat sickening.)

I don't think there are many sexualised male warriors in fantasy that compare to the typical stylized warrior woman (provocative and useless armour). And we don't seem to mind the more common male stereotype of badass (butch unarmoured, or ironclad impractical yet protected).

Preemtive: I'm not saying Divinity was that bad; I haven't even seen the original cover art. I take this to be a more general discussion, especially with the deviantart entry complaining about a general movement against these stereotypes.

I think it is good to remind game makers that there are players who would like to play their game without being sexually assaulted by the art. (Many of us identify so strongly with our gender that we react to the way our gender is portrayed. So I gather anyway, and so do I.) Because it might prompt some of them to delve earnestly and enthusiastically into something that suits more/other players, because they might produce new flavours of game.

I wouldn't go much further than that, though. If they still want to draw their battle-babes, they might draw some really cool battle-babes that I'd like to see in action. These characters can be expressive, although I understand that (superexaggeration underway) having bare bellies and sexy attire being a feature of all women in a setting regardless of their circumstances and intentions (dating, dancing, fighting, travelling, conducting meetings with politicians, leading armies) suggests, possibly in a demeaning way, that all women will/must show off their bodies; that this is a defining trait of women. (Since it is independent of anything but their being women.)

Men's attire tends to seem appropriate for the situation, although there is sometimes the aforementioned badassery to their armour (bulky addons, spikes and whatnot; perhaps akin to goth/punk/metal outfits in the real world).

Or they just wear their armour/battle attire (their near-nudity) all the time.

EDIT-Just a thought: The unarmoured male shows that he needs no armour. The silly-armoured female doesn't show quite the same thing.

Last edited by Sinister; 31/07/13 11:12 AM.
Joined: Oct 2004
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2004
Maybe there should be a button on the box that allows the purchaser to select the art work they feel most comfortable with smile
-
Then again if you give a choice will there be those who object to the choice that is allowed some people ?

Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
Quote
That poor artist, having to deal with the "harsh" criticism of unrealistic armour being called unrealistic.

Yeah, that poor artist happens to be part Larian team and have the userbase like "this" who sent threats over artistic expression.

I know few people who won't buy Dragon's Crown, for example, due to the fact they don't like the artwork. I never planned to buy it as well, because gameplay isn't my thing, but now, seeing how they reacted to backslash about Sorceress design and said directly into the face of "offended" "Fuck you" - I will buy the game. i will never play it, but I will support the developer. Because they deserve it.

Joined: May 2013
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2013
That be a poor reason to spend money, but it be yer money so knock yerself out.

Seriously, if you don't like it, then don't buy it, don't use it, don't look at it and let it be unless it somehow presses itself into your life in a way you can't avoid it.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Larian Studios
Offline
Larian Studios
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by Kein
Yeah, that poor artist happens to be part Larian team

Which makes his objections to the change worse, not better. I would never take it as a personal affront to my freedom if my boss (in any job I've ever had) told me that my particular image/proposal could not be used unmodified to be the immediate representation of a product that the future of the company was dependant on.


Originally Posted by Kein
and have the userbase like "this" who sent threats over artistic expression.

Threatening messages would be wrong, regardless of the motivation. Since the artist in question did not accurately describe either the objections to the image or the image itself, I have very little confidence that the description of the reaction is accurate. For example, if you have a gaming website and choose not to cover a particular game because of the cover art (whether you think it is ridiculous, sexist, too childish, too gothic, etc), it is not "blackmail". You may miss out on some good titles that way, but if you have a ton of games to write about and limited time/space to do so, first impressions matter, and if a company chooses an inaccurate representation for their game (whether it be cover art or a trailer or demo), then they should expect the possibility of that causing problems.

Joined: May 2013
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2013
Originally Posted by Raze
[...] if a company chooses an inaccurate representation for their game (whether it be cover art or a trailer or demo), then they should expect the possibility of that causing problems.


A problem arises when they choose an accurate representation and the same outcome as you describe happens, while the product itself breaks no laws and is not adult-exclusive.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Austria
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Austria
To repost my usual argument against the top standard defense for boob plates and bikini armors:

Magic doesn't exist. Humans and metal do.

So no, the realism argument is *NOT* invalid.

Go cry me a river.


Proud Probatanthrope

Tor.com: Boob Plate Armor Would Kill You (cf. "ball plate armor" - Just think about it.)
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: UK
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: UK
I seriously worry about the state of the world these days. Its a sad day when the backlash over a piece of cover art causes a company to change it, they deemed it fine otherwise why would it have been used in the first place. The human form is a beautiful thing, look at all the renaissance sculptures from the likes of Michelangelo and Cellini.

People are fine with seeing totally naked pieces of art from the past yet have lost sight of what it means to be a piece of art these days. Games are an art form and a piece of fiction they are there to convey a world unlike our own. I would never want an artist to change their work because they are then trying to change something which fit naturally in the world they created. I may not agree with it but at least I know that is the artist's style.

Video games are attacked a lot yet looking at the film or theatre industry they are allowed freedoms that the games industry isn't. I have loved all the work by these talented individuals on both D:OS and Dragon Commander and I can't wait to receive my art book to see more amazing pieces. Keep up the excellent work.

Joined: Oct 2004
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2004
I'm more concern about people blowing themselves up in crowds than complaining about art work on a pc game or developers feeling that have to change the art work but having said that I agree that it is a good thing to be concern about the state of the world.

Last edited by meme; 02/08/13 01:13 PM.
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: UK
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: UK
I was getting at the overly, politically correct obsessed state of affairs we have now. They should just enjoy the hard work of others without seeing the need to complain over every little detail, I'm all for clamping down on racism and issues involving serious discrimination against sexuality, gender or religion but there has to be a point where it just reaches petty.

Last edited by Jenga; 02/08/13 02:44 PM.
Joined: Oct 2004
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2004
I know but the world is full of people and many people are easy going or moderate but when you have a gazillion people who can express an opinion there will always be at least one who can't tolerate something. The worse thing is that you don't really know why they are intolerant of some particular thing. They are just anonymous voices without backgrounds. They might be intolerant because they get a kick out of being intolerant or there might be something in their particular background to explain their expression.

However, once the opinion is voiced in a public fashion; a herd mentality will developed and frequently the reaction will be out of context. Ack Larian is sexist and disrespectful towards woman - ignoring the fact that many of the herd - if left on their own would not be voicing such agreement. They might not actually find the original art sexist (in context) or find it out of place on a game cover or even care about games in general. Rather they have joined the herd and march they must !

Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Larian Studios
Offline
Larian Studios
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by Jenga
Its a sad day when the backlash over a piece of cover art causes a company to change it

Was it a sad day when response to the keyword dialog system used in the pre-alpha builds (meant to keep the screen from becoming a wall of text) caused Larian to change that?
How about Larian redesigning the dialog system's dispute resolution rules, after people pointed out that a wizard may be weak but could still be intimidating? (intimidation up to that point being based entirely on strength)
I don't see how changing the cover art is different than any other change.

Joined: May 2013
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2013
It differs based on the perceived reasons, be they real or otherwise, that led to the conclusion that the change was an act of censorship.

Me, I dislike the human form, I only like the internal complexity and am particularly fascinated by the brain, so I don't mind the change.

I do prefer decency over any other invokable factors around this discussion, and do find a gray area between decency and freedom of expression.

But it's probably just me having formed my principles my own way.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Soviet Empire
Originally Posted by Jenga
I seriously worry about the state of the world these days. Its a sad day when the backlash over a piece of cover art causes a company to change it, they deemed it fine otherwise why would it have been used in the first place. The human form is a beautiful thing, look at all the renaissance sculptures from the likes of Michelangelo and Cellini.

People are fine with seeing totally naked pieces of art from the past yet have lost sight of what it means to be a piece of art these days. Games are an art form and a piece of fiction they are there to convey a world unlike our own. I would never want an artist to change their work because they are then trying to change something which fit naturally in the world they created. I may not agree with it but at least I know that is the artist's style.

Video games are attacked a lot yet looking at the film or theatre industry they are allowed freedoms that the games industry isn't. I have loved all the work by these talented individuals on both D:OS and Dragon Commander and I can't wait to receive my art book to see more amazing pieces. Keep up the excellent work.


There should be a word for someone who deliberately attempts to affect something by using irrational accusations of sexism. Like Godwin's law or similar.

Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Austria
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Austria
Originally Posted by Jenga
I seriously worry about the state of the world these days. Its a sad day when the backlash over a piece of cover art causes a company to change it, they deemed it fine otherwise why would it have been used in the first place. The human form is a beautiful thing, look at all the renaissance sculptures from the likes of Michelangelo and Cellini.

People are fine with seeing totally naked pieces of art from the past yet have lost sight of what it means to be a piece of art these days. Games are an art form and a piece of fiction they are there to convey a world unlike our own. I would never want an artist to change their work because they are then trying to change something which fit naturally in the world they created. I may not agree with it but at least I know that is the artist's style.

Video games are attacked a lot yet looking at the film or theatre industry they are allowed freedoms that the games industry isn't. I have loved all the work by these talented individuals on both D:OS and Dragon Commander and I can't wait to receive my art book to see more amazing pieces. Keep up the excellent work.
Whoa, talk about a straw man. Nude figures in (ancient/renaissance) art are created for totally different contexts. Try paintings and reliefs of battles as a proper comparison. Guess what, they wear armor of their time to protect themselves. Shocking concept, I know.


Proud Probatanthrope

Tor.com: Boob Plate Armor Would Kill You (cf. "ball plate armor" - Just think about it.)
Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
It's kinda hard not to notice when person A is in wearing protective armour covering every part of them but their head, and Person B is wearing a tiny bit of armour leaving most of their vital organs exposed.

Sexist may not be the right word for it, but there's absolutely NOTHING at all wrong, Kein, with pointing out that hey, there's a discrepancy here.

If the women are dressed like Red Sonja and the men are dressed like Conan, that's fine. It's when the women are dressed like Red Sonja and the men are dressed like walking tanks that it appears that things are unbalanced.

"Waah waah waah artistic integrity, waaah waaah waaah censorship."

People are free to make art the way the want, but guess what? Other people are also free to disagree with that art. That's not censorship.

Joined: May 2013
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: May 2013
I am really, really sad and i just can't stress enough the really part, to see this discussion about armors. The whole topic just makes me sad.

People seem to be mostly divided in two groups the pro-bikini and anti-bikini, with a few individuals in between.

With the anti-bikini people mostly raging when there's artwork that's not to their liking with threats of withdrawing their pledge and such.

It's project eternity all over again. There's a thread there of countless posts. And supposedly one of the most hot topics? (i really don't know what's going on there atm, i stoopped visiting the forums because of that thread) I mean, the most important part of the game is the armor for females?

And why there's no topics for male armors then? How they should look like etc? Male armor appearance can be ugly as long as it's not bikini?

Don't really think the one group can convince the other.

Myself, i'm with the pro bikini crowd.

Bullet point explanation

1. I like women looking like women and not dwarves with beards, suggesting that i appreciate armors for females to be more feminine.

2. I appreciate realism and historical accuracy but this is a fantasy setting, not everything has to be absolutely realistic, it's not Rome Total War with a Roman soldier wear bikini armor. If i like a certain design, i just like it and as long as it makes sense for the setting it belongs to, and i mean no lightsabers in a mediaval based setting, i have no problems

3. As Raze said, quote follows below, theres people actually not backing or even withdrawing pledges for the sake of bikini armor.
I don't see pro bikini people react like that.

Originally Posted by Raze

...I doubt anyone looked at the updated art and didn't back because they couldn't see a bare belly (and arms, neck and cleavage, which the artist failed to mention in that post).


I am one of those that didn't back project eternity due to this rage coming up about bikini armors and the whole artwork style.

I only did back it very later begrudingly so, well after the kickstarter has ended.

My answer would be. If possible, make a few options for pro bikinis, a few options for anti bikinis and the rest in between. When i say few could be 1 - 2 i don't know. Depends on the workload

Or just let the artists do the art they like.

Save the boob plate

PS. I just noticed the cover artwork change *heavy sigh*
While i do like the new looks better, i can't help but to think this was an act of censorship

Last edited by My name is Shar; 03/08/13 01:03 AM.
Page 7 of 12 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 11 12

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5