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Originally Posted by Dundalis
The thing is, if you are going for realism, then women shouldn't even be out on the battlefield fighting to the equal ability of men in the first place. Hell, they should barely be able to move (for very long anyway) in the heaviest armor, which would require a level of strength and constitution in real life.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can suspend disbelief for that, you can suspend disbelief for skimpy female armors. They are both unrealistic IMO. The most realistic would be to prevent women from wearing heavy armor, or even doing any hand to hand combat, but games will pretty much always portray women as equal to men in all facets in games these days to be politically correct.

I'm happy enough to suspend my disbelief with that, though I never play as a female, so I don't have to as much.


Can women not work out somehow to reach a level of fitness such that they can carry 40-60 pounds of armor? I'm finding it incredibly hard to believe you. Especially being -barely able to move-. Might want to check those anatomical facts.

Edit: I thought I should note that I do know women do have trouble reaching the same levels of strength as other trained men, but as far as I know it's not so different such that combat isn't quite doable even in moderately heavy armor.

Last edited by YoungFreshNewbie; 27/01/14 08:40 AM. Reason: to clarify what I'm arguing
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Originally Posted by YoungFreshNewbie

Can women not work out somehow to reach a level of fitness such that they can carry 40-60 pounds of armor? I'm finding it incredibly hard to believe you. Especially being -barely able to move-. Might want to check those anatomical facts.

Edit: I thought I should note that I do know women do have trouble reaching the same levels of strength as other trained men, but as far as I know it's not so different such that combat isn't quite doable even in moderately heavy armor.


Hi YoungFreshNewbie,

I reckon you are mostly right and in the real world, women on average, peak slightly lower than men, in terms of strength. There is an additional issue - army equipment is designed with men in mind. Female veterans have voiced their annoyance that the shape of the armour doesn't actually sit quiet as well on their figures as it does on men (chafes, incorrectly balanced, tight in thighs etc. etc.)

These are however real-world issues.

I think that essentially a fantasy game has room to disbelieve this. Significantly because: "magic". Why can a waife-like girl lift 150 pounds of armour and gear? Because: Dragon-Blood (or whatever else - happy to think of Scarlett as Lilu from Fifth Element).

I wouldn't "protest", if "for lolz", there were a quest, where an elderly wizard has a guard comprised of buxom amazons with uber-magically enchanted nanokinis (think Princess Leia), because everything I've seen of Larian, is that this would be lighthearted and they wouldn't allow such a ripe opportunity for parody to slide.

I am also reminded that Annah from Planescape Torment was wearing exceptionally revealing armour, and did not struggle in her fights in the Hells.

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120814034446/torment/images/b/ba/Annah_Front_%26_Back.jpg

Should Annah have worn more? Absolutely not. Because artistically the design corresponded to her characterisation (tiefling rogue), fit the style of the setting. I can't think of Annah for example, covered in all black like a ninja, though it might seem practical to me as a person in the real world, from the perspective of my character experience in Sigil, the ninja would stand out as weird.

For specifically medieval fantasy, what I am delighted Larian have absolutely no track record of, is the sexualisation of women for the purpose of boosting sales to a particular demographic, e.g. Kingdom Under Fire 2 (South Korean MMORPG)
Male:
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/856/856476/kingdom-under-fire-ii-20080303031840968_640w.jpg

Female:
http://me.ign.com/pictures/games/14231226/24085.jpg


I hope that Larian above all, remains true to their artistic vision and style.

Last edited by StSloth; 27/01/14 01:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dundalis
The thing is, if you are going for realism, then women shouldn't even be out on the battlefield fighting to the equal ability of men in the first place. Hell, they should barely be able to move (for very long anyway) in the heaviest armor, which would require a level of strength and constitution in real life.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can suspend disbelief for that, you can suspend disbelief for skimpy female armors. They are both unrealistic IMO. The most realistic would be to prevent women from wearing heavy armor, or even doing any hand to hand combat, but games will pretty much always portray women as equal to men in all facets in games these days to be politically correct.

I'm happy enough to suspend my disbelief with that, though I never play as a female, so I don't have to as much.


Who says men are stronger than women? My woman bested the village blacksmith when she was fifteen, and killed her first man less than a year later. The world sickens, and needs a woman's strong hand to restore it.

If you think that women are weak, you better hope that you stay anonymous online, otherwise, I'm sure someone will be willing to shove your words down your throat.

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Originally Posted by Haleseen
Originally Posted by Dundalis
The thing is, if you are going for realism, then women shouldn't even be out on the battlefield fighting to the equal ability of men in the first place. Hell, they should barely be able to move (for very long anyway) in the heaviest armor, which would require a level of strength and constitution in real life.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can suspend disbelief for that, you can suspend disbelief for skimpy female armors. They are both unrealistic IMO. The most realistic would be to prevent women from wearing heavy armor, or even doing any hand to hand combat, but games will pretty much always portray women as equal to men in all facets in games these days to be politically correct.

I'm happy enough to suspend my disbelief with that, though I never play as a female, so I don't have to as much.


Who says men are stronger than women? My woman bested the village blacksmith when she was fifteen, and killed her first man less than a year later. The world sickens, and needs a woman's strong hand to restore it.

If you think that women are weak, you better hope that you stay anonymous online, otherwise, I'm sure someone will be willing to shove your words down your throat.


Men and Women are physically built differently than each other, and there are also hormonal difference and differences related to muscle growth. You will ALWAYS find exceptions to the norm, outliers on the curve, but to construe that as some across the board fact of life that an average woman is just as strong as(or stronger than) an average male is disingenuous, and so is the way your reply assumes the poster was attempting to call women "weak".

It would be no better than someone trying to extrapolate the average man is a weakling because their male friends all happen to be weak.

But more to the point, and returning to the topic at hand. Whatever happened to "the empowered woman" being able to decide she likes to dress provocatively or show off her body?

Canned "women have just been conditioned by the patriarchy to think that way" response incoming.....


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Originally Posted by Zach
Originally Posted by Haleseen
Originally Posted by Dundalis
The thing is, if you are going for realism, then women shouldn't even be out on the battlefield fighting to the equal ability of men in the first place. Hell, they should barely be able to move (for very long anyway) in the heaviest armor, which would require a level of strength and constitution in real life.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can suspend disbelief for that, you can suspend disbelief for skimpy female armors. They are both unrealistic IMO. The most realistic would be to prevent women from wearing heavy armor, or even doing any hand to hand combat, but games will pretty much always portray women as equal to men in all facets in games these days to be politically correct.

I'm happy enough to suspend my disbelief with that, though I never play as a female, so I don't have to as much.


Who says men are stronger than women? My woman bested the village blacksmith when she was fifteen, and killed her first man less than a year later. The world sickens, and needs a woman's strong hand to restore it.

If you think that women are weak, you better hope that you stay anonymous online, otherwise, I'm sure someone will be willing to shove your words down your throat.


Men and Women are physically built differently than each other, and there are also hormonal difference and differences related to muscle growth. You will ALWAYS find exceptions to the norm, outliers on the curve, but to construe that as some across the board fact of life that an average woman is just as strong as(or stronger than) an average male is disingenuous, and so is the way your reply assumes the poster was attempting to call women "weak".

It would be no better than someone trying to extrapolate the average man is a weakling because their male friends all happen to be weak.

But more to the point, and returning to the topic at hand. Whatever happened to "the empowered woman" being able to decide she likes to dress provocatively or show off her body?

Canned "women have just been conditioned by the patriarchy to think that way" response incoming.....



But in all technicality, the poster was calling women weak (also, my first sentence was a quote from Divine Divinity Female Warrior). Not allowing women to participate in hand to hand combat? Or even wear armor? Saying that that's realistic? That's indicative of some backwoods thinking that women are only for fucking. I'm not going to let this conservative dumbass put women down like that.

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While I do think we've derailed quite far from the more reasonable/arguable opinions in the last many posts, I do agree that many of the immediately previous posts have done nothing but play up the outrageous extreme opinions nobody with half a brain holds. Nobody reasonable takes "patriarchy-smashers" or misogynists seriously.

We should probably just move back to the more interesting debates of practicality/suspension of disbelief/aesthetic preference and how it relates to the enjoyment of the game. I have enough faith in Larian to not fall into sexist fallacies with their portrayal of characters, so there's really no need to even go here.

I only say this to point out that derailing this thread could end up locking it or purging it before it's run its course. It would be a shame to see that.

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On topic, I liked Dragon Age: Origin's heavy sets best, though they are unrealistic in many ways (I'm sure armor specialists can point out a load of things), they are still aesthetically pleasing while avoiding all the typical annoyances (boobplate, high heels,...) one tends to find in "generic" fantasy settings.

Like this one (can't find a full body shot right now):

[Linked Image]

That said, D:OS has quite a different graphical style from DA:O...


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Kirk


That image above... It's decent. I mean, in practicality, that's a stab in the heart away from being totally useless. But it's better than the armor bikini that 'protects more' than some leather armor.

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[Linked Image]

:p


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Fuck this discussion.

How is this different:
[Linked Image]

From this:
[Linked Image]

Leave the artists alone!!! Don't like their artwork. Don't play their games!

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This.

also;



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@DarthDavy: If you're not interested in discussion on the topic that Larian itself asked about, why bother joining it at all?

Another major issue you have is the fallacious assumption that because one character in one game is not heavily clothed somehow means men are on the same grounds as women when it comes to gaming. That's just ridiculous to think a single example represents a huge multitude.

I could post many pictures where women are virtually naked and men are fully armored in the same gear. That doesn't mean all games are sexist/sexualizing either.

"Fuck this discussion" is right. You can't even begin to discuss or argue by the looks of it.

To put it briefly, let the people who actually care and can argue reasonably on the matter do so, and see yourself out if all you can do is throw out bullshit arguments and an insult to all those who do care about this subject.

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To be honest, If I were playing as a female character, I would like to have my character be able to look as cool as the male characters. I really like the work that artists do on male character armor and clothing. Generally they all look decked out in metal with lots of weird little additions to their armor, extra plates here and there, and things like that. But then you look at armor bikini... and... well it's just not the same. I don't mind that it exists, but I definitely would like the option of having a few sets that had 'walking tank' like styles to them.

Technical and practical assumptions aside, this is still a fantasy game, and should include some more choices if people want them, it shouldn't really be an 'either/or' part of the game.

I personally don't find appeal in the whole 'strip of clothing' armor that 'protects' as much as the male character's heavy armor. But, whatever floats your boat.

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Here is an example of some 'decent' women armor art from the SPMMO 'Guild Wars'

This is of the 'warrior' profession: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_armor

Yes, women in this game are more 'slight' than their male counterparts, and so the armor isn't the same, but you have a variety of elite armor to choose from, which, to me, makes the female version of the class playable. Again, I don't really like any of the armor that 'shows skin', I like people covered up to the brim in protective padding.

But then you have the 'elementalist' profession: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elementalist_armor

The women, It's practically all like short skirts and panties. Which I personally don't appreciate, which, kind of keeps me away from playing that class at all (and I don't even play the male, because I dislike their dance emote).

But that's just an example of a game that kind of includes quite a bit of diversity in their armor art, which is what I think this game should be able to do. I just happen to like full cover body armor.

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Originally Posted by YoungFreshNewbie
@DarthDavy: If you're not interested in discussion on the topic that Larian itself asked about, why bother joining it at all?

Another major issue you have is the fallacious assumption that because one character in one game is not heavily clothed somehow means men are on the same grounds as women when it comes to gaming. That's just ridiculous to think a single example represents a huge multitude.

I could post many pictures where women are virtually naked and men are fully armored in the same gear. That doesn't mean all games are sexist/sexualizing either.

"Fuck this discussion" is right. You can't even begin to discuss or argue by the looks of it.

To put it briefly, let the people who actually care and can argue reasonably on the matter do so, and see yourself out if all you can do is throw out bullshit arguments and an insult to all those who do care about this subject.


You're right. Why did I post in the first place?

Oh right, because I find it lame this discussion is still going on for a Larian game. There are clearly more sexist games out there where all of you social reformers can have a blast (Tera, that kingdom under fire game, mods for skyrim, oh think about those mods for skyrim,...).

Yes, there is sexism in games. And a lot of it. Does Larian deserves this crusade? No, I don't think so.

And my opinion on the matter is that the artwork of the armor bikini should have stayed where it was and not changed. I really think Swen made a wrong choice of asking his artist to change the artwork. It only fuelled this discussion.

You know why this discussion is worthless. It's because you think are right of your opinion and I think I am right on my opinion. It's like having a discussion with a vegetarian to eat meat! It's useless. It's a choice, it's a point of view.

And that's why I think the armored bikini should have stayed where it was. It was the artist's choice, the artist's opinion in the first place. But changing it brought this all to this.

Now it's not about the armor bikini anymore. It's now about the fact they changed the armor bikini the front runners who were against the armor bikini think they are in their right mind to get all the sexism out of games, which is ridicolous because D:OS wasn't sexist in the first place! Certainly not comparing to a lot of other games out there.

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Like I was saying earlier, that's why I was trying to steer it back to topics that DID matter. That is to say, a good compromise between the viewpoints or a way to incorporate both.

I have also elsewhere noted that making a sexism argument instead of an aesthetic argument is never going to get anywhere. What this topic can and should be doing is figuring out a way to aesthetically please the majority of the community.

Throwing out insults discredits your more constructive and meaningful opinions you just posted above. You're right that some of it should not have happened, but not all parts of this discussion are useless.

I wish you had just started by saying why you found it useless. Would've been a conversation we could've started on better terms. I hope you see my side at least that there -could- be potential for conversation here, even if it's not meeting it atm.

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Originally Posted by DarthDavy
Leave the artists alone!!! Don't like their artwork. Don't play their games!

Now-now, be careful with logic and common sense.

You are talking to people who did rather change the world instead of changing themselves. Because apparently this world exist only for them :3

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Originally Posted by YoungFreshNewbie
Like I was saying earlier, that's why I was trying to steer it back to topics that DID matter. That is to say, a good compromise between the viewpoints or a way to incorporate both.

I have also elsewhere noted that making a sexism argument instead of an aesthetic argument is never going to get anywhere. What this topic can and should be doing is figuring out a way to aesthetically please the majority of the community.

Throwing out insults discredits your more constructive and meaningful opinions you just posted above. You're right that some of it should not have happened, but not all parts of this discussion are useless.

I wish you had just started by saying why you found it useless. Would've been a conversation we could've started on better terms. I hope you see my side at least that there -could- be potential for conversation here, even if it's not meeting it atm.


I concur. I was pretty harsh with my comments. For that I apologize. There are more civilized ways to express my opinion.

Either way, I also agree Larian could and should accommodate all point of views. There should be an armor bikini and there should be a walking tank. Certainly in a RPG are options fine. More options, better game.

However, my frustration is that the artwork was changed. That frustration can't be changed anymore, but I shouldn't have vented it. Anyway, I have my revenge nonetheless, because I own D:OS publicity (posters) with the original artwork (so the armor bikini). smile

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You have to understand I dont wish to be rude at all, but in the first games Larian made they were sensible about "female" armor, and now i see bikini bras and tit breast plates. Here is a article every one should read! http://dungeonsandcaverns.blogspot.ro/2013/04/the-problem-with-women-in-fantasy-art.html
Here is another referance [Linked Image]
And another [Linked Image] Need I say more? [Linked Image]
Well here is one more article to sort the issue Please read that article Larian! http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.ro/2012/01/character-design-style-of-substance.html

Last edited by Marius Voinescu; 31/01/14 08:38 PM.

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